Tank is not thriving... Help me turn it around!

[TheKleinReef]

3 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

Actively working to drop ALK at the moment slowly. CAL is stable at ~420ppm but I will have to test MAG (have never done so), maybe I will swing by my LFS this evening to do that

 

I have not calculated exactly how much flow I have in my tank but between the return pump and two power heads I feel as though there is more than enough. I'll try and get you a semi accurate number

sounds like a good plan, just focus on changing one thing at a time. if you could record a little video of the flow that might help us determine if it's too much/little/just right

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

22 minutes ago, TheKleinReef said:

sounds like a good plan, just focus on changing one thing at a time. if you could record a little video of the flow that might help us determine if it's too much/little/just right

Ok dumb question alert but how would one go about seeing  if flow is 'just right? I get you can tell if it's a stagnant pool/violent whirlpool those are pretty obvious but otherwise isn't it more a case of having to take a long view and seeing how certain things do in certain flows, rather than being able to tell from a snapshot of one moment?

[TheKleinReef]

3 minutes ago, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

Ok dumb question alert but how would one go about seeing  if flow is 'just right? I get you can tell if it's a stagnant pool/violent whirlpool those are pretty obvious but otherwise isn't it more a case of having to take a long view and seeing how certain things do in certain flows, rather than being able to tell from a snapshot of one moment?

i'd argue it's a bit of both. if you don't see polyps moving/tissue moving gently (each coral will be different here) that's an easy thing to observe right away. 

 

you might change the flow and say yeah that looks good but 36-48h later the coral looks a bit mad. flow and coral placement is very much an art as it is a science.

[seabass]

13 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

I feed the tank but they don't seem really receptive to it at the moment.

Yeah, that can happen when they aren't thriving.  It's sort of like sun coral which isn't feeding.  However, you can sometimes get a feeding response by first targeting some mysis juice (before you feed the meaty bits).  You might also try feeding at the same time of day, that might help too.

[fivedeuce]

18 hours ago, TheKleinReef said:

sounds like a good plan, just focus on changing one thing at a time. if you could record a little video of the flow that might help us determine if it's too much/little/just right

Only a short clip, had to keep it under 25mb

 

My return is pushing ~650gph, Nero3 running at 80% (1600gph) during the day in random mode and the Jebao ML10 is pushing ~850gph

[seabass]

35 minutes ago, fivedeuce said:

My return is pushing ~650gph, Nero3 running at 80% (1600gph) during the day in random mode and the Jebao ML10 is pushing ~850gph

That's about 40 times turnover (from three sources) in your display.  IMO, that should be plenty for a mixed reef (non-SPS dominant) tank.

[fivedeuce]

Tested all my water parameters today:

 

CAL - 420

ALK - 9.6

PH - 8.3

No3 - 5.7

Po4 - 0.08

Salinity - 1.025

Temp - 78

 

ALK is holding at 9.6, decreased dosage to 0.4ml every 2hrs (4.8ml daily). Po4 is slowly climbing (was at 0.06 3 days ago) and No3 is down 0.3 in the same time

 

I'll keep testing every three days and hopefully in a month or two things will start to improve, I don't expect miracles overnight. Should I hold off on water changes for the time being since my nitrates have dropped? Or do one once a week to replenish any trace elements I may have stripped out of the water column?

[seabass]

For now, I'd probably hold off on doing water changes simply for the sake of doing water changes.  However, feel free to do regular tank maintenance, and replace the water removed with new.  That should suffice to replenish the minor trace elements.  I'm not really thinking that lack of trace elements is the problem anyway.

[Dimos Arvantis]

Some very helpful tips here! This community is brilliant, can't add much more other than say these comments are great

[geekreef_05]

Has there been any improvement in corals via water changes or dosing or waterflow? 

 

Looks like your not monitoring Mg. Might be worthwhile. Low Mg levels are bad for LPS and those could suddenly hit a threshold causing corals to looking shrunken.

 

Also, is there a possibility you can post a photo of your coral? 

[fivedeuce]

40 minutes ago, geekreef_05 said:

Has there been any improvement in corals via water changes or dosing or waterflow? 

 

Looks like your not monitoring Mg. Might be worthwhile. Low Mg levels are bad for LPS and those could suddenly hit a threshold causing corals to looking shrunken.

 

Also, is there a possibility you can post a photo of your coral? 

I might be hallucinating but the corals seem a little puffier, we're talking like a 2% visual improvement. I haven't had a chance to get my MAG tested but I'm hoping to swing by my LFS tonight after work. I will post a photo of them tonight

[fivedeuce]

We have found the culprit

 

Got my MAG tested and it's sitting at ~1080-1100ppm. Picked up a jug of ESV MAG and a test kit and will dose to get my levels up. I've never had to dose MAG but the owner of the LFS recommended I keep it between 1400-1500, he's seen the best results in that range. Thoughts?

 

He also said I can go ahead and dose large quantities at a time, suggested 1L to start today with a top up tomorrow after testing and it wouldn't have any negative impacts on the tank. Dumping 1L in today sounds insane to me but is that the right call?

[fenderchamp]

I think "sounds insane to me" pretty much sums it up.

 

If I were you, and I only have pico experience and only a few years of it for that matter.  You can look at my two tiny tanks and see my approach and results etc....but if I were you.

 

I'd quit dosing anything, no chemicals at all, you have like 3 tiny frags or something like that in your tank, so I'm thinking they are utilizing not much of anything, turn down your flow, your corals, though they aren't very extended and don't look like they are whipping around violently, but the bubbles in your tank sure do.  

 

Start hitting water changes weekly 10%, 20% whatever, maybe start with a good %50.

 

Review your light, maybe throw your prime in acclimation mode or whatever, assume you're using too much light now.

 

Keep it clean. Watch it every day.

 

Be consistent for 3-4 months.  See what happens.  

 

I use Red Sea Pro the high alkalinity stuff, salt.

 

I had my little 5gal in an AIO, the best thing I ever did was put it in a plain tank, no overflow, no mechanical filter, add more rock, get rid of the and flow that was pushing the overflow,  turn the flow down and lower the flow of the remaining nero,  reduce the light intensity by 25% and the length from 12 to 8 hours.

 

I don't fancy myself a model for other reefers, but it seems like you might try a different approach to try to jumpstart your coral growth. 

 

 

[fenderchamp]

I found this thread very interesting, it had a great influence on me.

 

 @Johnpaul's trials and tribulations in regards to overfiltering and dosing are well documented. 

 

I know his thread is but anecdotal evidence of the success of his approach and philosophy, but given that all the other advise you get on here is simply people surmising about what might be the issue, as is the guy at your LFS, who additionally likes to sell stuff to you, most recently a jug of magnesium?

 

Anyway God luck and good speed! 

 

Weedeater plays real heavy and slow, just like your reef should grow!

 

 

 

[seabass]

There is no proven reason to raise magnesium that high.  1250 to 1300 ppm of magnesium should be sufficient.  Plus, adding all that magnesium will affect salinity, so you'll have to adjust that too (which will also affect your other parameters).  Overdosing magnesium isn't a good plan.

 

Once magnesium is within a good range (say ~1300 ppm), you'll probability find that alkalinity isn't being consumed like you thought, so you'll probably have to adjust how much alkalinity you dose.  As I mentioned earlier, alkalinity was probably precipitating out as you dosed it (due to the lack of magnesium).

 

So fenderchamp's comment about correcting water chemistry through water changes and to quit dosing, would probably work.  Although you'd probably still have to deal with low nutrient levels due to all those water changes.  And I know that some people like high alkalinity salt mix, but I'm less enthusiastic about using it (especially if given a price friendly alternative).

[mcarroll]

Just to pile on...

The Effect of Magnesium on the Calcium/Alkalinity Balance in Aquaria is really the main concern with Mg. (And why precipitation has been a specific concern brought up.

 

 

I suspect your corals are still tweaked from the timeframe when you NO3 was bottoming out with the macro reactor...it seems likely that PO4 was doing the same.  The effects of nutrient deficit like this seem to be progressive on the coral, so the side effects as we see them can sort of be time delayed....up to a month seems typical.  It takes time for the damage to set in to such a degree that the coral's overall health suffers....and it's only then that "visible" evidence of a problem is presented to us....but the problem (environmental nutrient imbalance) originated much earlier.  Recovery seems to be along a similar timeline once conditions improve...not quick.  IME, some corals never quite look the same afterward as before.

 

 

[geekreef_05]

Yikes, dont dump alot in at once, thats definitely a bad call. 

 

Start dosing small. Get an understanding how much Mg your reef is using in 24hrs and 48hrs. 

 

Thats important cause 24hrs isnt long enough to measure Mg dissoluyion or absorption on a home reef. See my tank journal for my adventures with Mg. 

 

I agree that 1500 Mg is what you want to shoot for if your an LPS keeper. Torches love it.

 

Its not a common objective to shoot for cause Torches specifically arent a common goal to keep. And so the current reefkeeping norm is to believe that 1100 or 1200 Mg is fine.

 

Test regularly is my advice. Dont dose unless you can test 24hrs later.

 

Record your results and through the data understand the Mg consumption of your reef. 

 

Every aquarium will be different.

 

 

If Mg fixes the problem - awesome. If not, more investigation is needed. 

 

Let us know how it turns out!

[mcarroll]

11 hours ago, geekreef_05 said:

Yikes, dont dump alot in at once, thats definitely a bad call. 

I wouldn't dump that much all at once either, but I think some folks are cool with it because of how little Mg affects anything potentially problematic like pH.  

 

Tweaking ph is usually the main problem with making big adjustments to the water....including big water changes.  

 

All the same I tend to break big Mg doses like this down into at least two parts, with at least some time in between each part....maybe a day.  

 

I also like the advice the Reef Chemistry Calculator gives for cases like this (numbers only approximations of the OP's case):

[fivedeuce]

I appreciate all the feedback so far and will try to respond to each comment but the weekends been a little busy. I added 550ml MAG solution to the tank over the last two days, splitting it up into a few doses and it's starting to bring it into an acceptable range. I will stabilize it at 1300ppm. Parameters are as follows:

 

CAL - 420

ALK - 9.3

MAG - 1280

PH - 8.3

No3 -6.8

Po4 - 0.07

Salinity - 1.026

Temp - 78

 

I think I'm on the right path for now. I'm just going to keep these parameters steady for the next little while and see what happens. I'm going to bring ALK down a pinch, keep MAG around 1300. I just have to be patient and consistent with my testing for the next little while...

[fivedeuce]

On 1/19/2024 at 1:39 AM, seabass said:

There is no proven reason to raise magnesium that high.  1250 to 1300 ppm of magnesium should be sufficient.  Plus, adding all that magnesium will affect salinity, so you'll have to adjust that too (which will also affect your other parameters).  Overdosing magnesium isn't a good plan.

 

Once magnesium is within a good range (say ~1300 ppm), you'll probability find that alkalinity isn't being consumed like you thought, so you'll probably have to adjust how much alkalinity you dose.  As I mentioned earlier, alkalinity was probably precipitating out as you dosed it (due to the lack of magnesium).

 

So fenderchamp's comment about correcting water chemistry through water changes and to quit dosing, would probably work.  Although you'd probably still have to deal with low nutrient levels due to all those water changes.  And I know that some people like high alkalinity salt mix, but I'm less enthusiastic about using it (especially if given a price friendly alternative).

I'm hesitant to use water changes to adjust CAL/ALK/MAG levels because I don't want to bottom out my nitrates and phosphates. I'm going to balance everything out with dosing and testing the tank religiously

 

I've used Red Sea Coral Pro salt thus far and haven't felt the need for the high ALK version, I'd rather dose it when necessary

[fivedeuce]

On 1/19/2024 at 2:39 AM, mcarroll said:

Just to pile on...

The Effect of Magnesium on the Calcium/Alkalinity Balance in Aquaria is really the main concern with Mg. (And why precipitation has been a specific concern brought up.

 

 

I suspect your corals are still tweaked from the timeframe when you NO3 was bottoming out with the macro reactor...it seems likely that PO4 was doing the same.  The effects of nutrient deficit like this seem to be progressive on the coral, so the side effects as we see them can sort of be time delayed....up to a month seems typical.  It takes time for the damage to set in to such a degree that the coral's overall health suffers....and it's only then that "visible" evidence of a problem is presented to us....but the problem (environmental nutrient imbalance) originated much earlier.  Recovery seems to be along a similar timeline once conditions improve...not quick.  IME, some corals never quite look the same afterward as before.

 

 

In this hobby, good things take time and disasters happen overnight. I hope everything bounces back in due time

[seabass]

10 minutes ago, fivedeuce said:

I've used Red Sea Coral Pro salt thus far and haven't felt the need for the high ALK version

If I recall correctly, Coral Pro is the high alk version.  The blue bucket has alkalinity more in line with natural seawater levels (although some would say it's lower than they would like).  But I'm not arguing that point, as some people really like Red Sea Coral Pro.  I just commented that I would prefer a lower alkalinity mix, maybe like 9 dKH (if prices were similar and given the choice).  People argue all the time about which salt mix to use, and everyone seems to have their own preference.

 

For targeting parameters, I usually recommend targeting the levels of the salt mix you are using.  That way, if you have to do a large water change, it won't change your water's parameters very much.  So if you wish to keep your alkalinity level around 9 dKH, I'd recommend picking a salt mix that mixes to around that mark.

 

 

13 minutes ago, fivedeuce said:

I'm hesitant to use water changes to adjust CAL/ALK/MAG levels because I don't want to bottom out my nitrates and phosphates.

I don't see a problem with that.  Sounds like a good plan.

[fivedeuce]

On 1/19/2024 at 8:36 AM, geekreef_05 said:

Yikes, dont dump alot in at once, thats definitely a bad call. 

 

Start dosing small. Get an understanding how much Mg your reef is using in 24hrs and 48hrs. 

 

Thats important cause 24hrs isnt long enough to measure Mg dissoluyion or absorption on a home reef. See my tank journal for my adventures with Mg. 

 

I agree that 1500 Mg is what you want to shoot for if your an LPS keeper. Torches love it.

 

Its not a common objective to shoot for cause Torches specifically arent a common goal to keep. And so the current reefkeeping norm is to believe that 1100 or 1200 Mg is fine.

 

Test regularly is my advice. Dont dose unless you can test 24hrs later.

 

Record your results and through the data understand the Mg consumption of your reef. 

 

Every aquarium will be different.

 

 

If Mg fixes the problem - awesome. If not, more investigation is needed. 

 

Let us know how it turns out!

Yea I've kept an aquarium log in an excel spreadsheet since setting up the tank but only recently (September 2023) started really tracking my parameters and I'm a big advocate for this now. I'm happy to report that my corals are looking much better now since I dosed the magnesium. I think we're on the path to recovery now. I'll post a few photos when I get a chance

[fivedeuce]

43 minutes ago, seabass said:

If I recall correctly, Coral Pro is the high alk version.  The blue bucket has alkalinity more in line with natural seawater levels (although some would say it's lower than they would like).  But I'm not arguing that point, as some people really like Red Sea Coral Pro.  I just commented that I would prefer a lower alkalinity mix, maybe like 9 dKH (if prices were similar and given the choice).  People argue all the time about which salt mix to use, and everyone seems to have their own preference.

 

For targeting parameters, I usually recommend targeting the levels of the salt mix you are using.  That way, if you have to do a large water change, it won't change your water's parameters very much.  So if you wish to keep your alkalinity level around 9 dKH, I'd recommend picking a salt mix that mixes to around that mark.

 

 

I don't see a problem with that.  Sounds like a good plan.

Sorry, you are correct. I am using the Red Sea Salt, not the Coral Pro. It's the blue bucket

[fivedeuce]

Just wanted to post a little glamour shot from the early days after I set up my tank. I want my tank to outshine my view