Tank is not thriving... Help me turn it around!

[fivedeuce]

Long time lurker, first time posting...

 

Recently got back into the hobby after a 10+ year hiatus and things have certainly changed! I used to run a 75gal mixed reef with metal halides and had pretty good success. Kept things very simple, fed sparingly, weekly water changes/testing etc. and everything was happy

 

Fast forward to June 2022 and I decided to get wet again. Set up a 20x20" cube with a 20gal sump (~45gal TWV). Equipment at initial setup is as follows:

 

20x20" glass tank with ghost overflow

20gal FijiCube sump

Sicce Syncra SDC 3 return pump (running at 80% or ~640gph)

AI Prime 16HD light

100w Jaeger heater

Bubble Magus Curve 3 - 80gal protein skimmer (running 0600 - 2359)

Jebao MLW 10 wavemaker

Small reactor to run carbon

Gravity fed auto top off with 5gal reservoir

4 stage RO/DI unit

~40lbs dry live rock - 25 display, 15 sump

 

Slowly stocked the tank over the next 4-6mos with:

 

2x Ocellaris clowns

1x Sixline wrasse

1x Purple dotty back

1x File fish

1x Cleaner shrimp

1x Tuxedo urchin

6-8x blue legged hermits

4x Nassarius snails

And 1x hitchhiker brittle starfish I found on a coral frag that I decided to keep

 

I haven't had any major algae/diatom issues (added a Tunze LED Eco to grow chaeto in my fuge around the 8mo mark, runs 0001 - 0800) and my nitrates were undetectable for the longest time. I actually started dosing No3 to try and bring them up to a detectable range. I also added a Nero 3 after the first year to increase flow in the tank. I'll be honest, I did not dose CAL/ALK the first year just relied on water changes. Added 2 dosing pumps ~4mos ago to keep levels stable

 

Fast forward to today and the tank is just.... blehhhh. All the fish are happy and eating like pigs, no issues there. My corals on the other hand are all retracted and not super happy. Bought 5-6 acan frags (love acans) and they all slowly melted away when I had super low nitrates. I now only have a frogspawn, 2x hammers and a torch coral (the torch is the only one that I'd say is semi happy with slightly extended tentacles). I purchased an AI Prime 32HD over Boxing Day thinking that my tank wasn't getting enough light but so far has had little to no impact

 

Water quality is as follows:

 

CAL - 420

ALK - 10

PH 8.3-8.5

No3 - 10-15

Po4 - 0.04

Salinity - 1.026

Temp - 77-79

 

I don't really do water changes that often, maybe once a month when my nitrates creep up past 15ppm. The skimmer and fuge do most of the heavy lifting. I test weekly with a Hanna master test kit and my parameters are stable. I just don't really know what I'm doing wrong and would love to get some input/feedback

 

Edit: Two things I forgot to mention. I dose 12ml ALK daily, 1ml every two hours and 1ml CAL daily. CAL uptake by my corals is virtually non-existent. I find this very strange

 

I have never tested MAG as it was not an option with the OG gen Hanna master test kit. I should probably get around to this

 

[natalia_la_loca]

hi, welcome! sorry to hear about your struggles.

 

Your alk is maybe a bit high. Since uptake by corals has gone down and you don’t seem to have all that many corals, maybe slow or discontinue dosing? 

 

I would do a water change, since you don’t do them often. Easy enough to be worth the effort to see if maybe there’s some impurity in the water. I would check nitrate and phosphate afterward and dose them if the water change reduces their levels.

 

Given that all of your corals are euphyllia, any chance of euphyllia eating flatworms or brown jelly? Worth inspecting for/ruling out. I wonder if a pathogen might have taken out your acans too.

[seabass]

Welcome!

 

Lack of coral growth can be really frustrating.  Nothing that you posted really stands out to me.  Phosphate might be a little low; and, like you mentioned, who knows what magnesium might be (alkalinity might just be precipitating out if magnesium is too low).  Dosing alkalinity usually means you need to dose some calcium and magnesium as well.

 

How is your chaeto growth?  A refugium can help uptake excess nutrients, but it can also steal vital nutrients from your corals.  I wonder if it is helping or hurting overall coral health.

 

I wonder why you aren't continuously running your skimmer.  In addition, I wonder about your substrate.  Maybe your tank is suffering a little from old tank syndrome.  Although the brittle sea star might be helping to keep the substrate clean.

 

I'm also a little surprised by the lack of herbivorous snails.  I'm sure that the urchin is helping with that, but it just seems a little unusual that you don't have any turbo snails as part of your cleanup crew.  Maybe the lack of algae is providing us a peek into why your corals aren't growing either.

 

IDK, in addition to testing magnesium, I might be tempted to try running without the chaeto for awhile, which might help elevate phosphate and potentially help all of your other photosynthetic life (including your corals).  Other thoughts - have you dosed any meds or other "cures"?  Dosing "cures" often does more harm than good.  I would also agree that additional water changes might be beneficial to help balance your water chemistry, remove unwanted (or excess) substances, and provide some trace elements.

[fivedeuce]

11 hours ago, natalia_la_loca said:

hi, welcome! sorry to hear about your struggles.

 

Your alk is maybe a bit high. Since uptake by corals has gone down and you don’t seem to have all that many corals, maybe slow or discontinue dosing? 

 

I would do a water change, since you don’t do them often. Easy enough to be worth the effort to see if maybe there’s some impurity in the water. I would check nitrate and phosphate afterward and dose them if the water change reduces their levels.

 

Given that all of your corals are euphyllia, any chance of euphyllia eating flatworms or brown jelly? Worth inspecting for/ruling out. I wonder if a pathogen might have taken out your acans too.

I was starting to think my ALK could be a little high and was considering bringing it down a pinch. I will decrease my dose and bring it down to 8.5-9 to see what happens

 

I haven't seen any traces of pests/parasites on my euphyllia, they're just grumpy. I sadly lost the acans in the first year when my No3 was virtually 0.0ppm - my skimmer was a little too efficient at the time. Started dosing No3 and feeding more frequently, added 2 more fish and it shot up to +20ppm in no time

 

[fivedeuce]

8 hours ago, seabass said:

Welcome!

 

Lack of coral growth can be really frustrating.  Nothing that you posted really stands out to me.  Phosphate might be a little low; and, like you mentioned, who knows what magnesium might be (alkalinity might just be precipitating out if magnesium is too low).  Dosing alkalinity usually means you need to dose some calcium and magnesium as well.

 

How is your chaeto growth?  A refugium can help uptake excess nutrients, but it can also steal vital nutrients from your corals.  I wonder if it is helping or hurting overall coral health.

 

I wonder why you aren't continuously running your skimmer.  In addition, I wonder about your substrate.  Maybe your tank is suffering a little from old tank syndrome.  Although the brittle sea star might be helping to keep the substrate clean.

 

I'm also a little surprised by the lack of herbivorous snails.  I'm sure that the urchin is helping with that, but it just seems a little unusual that you don't have any turbo snails as part of your cleanup crew.  Maybe the lack of algae is providing us a peek into why your corals aren't growing either.

 

IDK, in addition to testing magnesium, I might be tempted to try running without the chaeto for awhile, which might help elevate phosphate and potentially help all of your other photosynthetic life (including your corals).  Other thoughts - have you dosed any meds or other "cures"?  Dosing "cures" often does more harm than good.  I would also agree that additional water changes might be beneficial to help balance your water chemistry, remove unwanted (or excess) substances, and provide some trace elements.

Sorry! Forgot to mention - I have 4 large Astrea snails cruising the tank. Also I have about 1.25" Caribsea special grade as substrate

 

I ran the skimmer 24/7 for the first ~9mos and it virtually stripped my tank of nitrates. Around that same time I added chaeto to my fuge to add a little more 'natural' filtration, place for copepods to hide etc. Then I started testing my water religiously and realized my No3 was undetectable. Turned off the skimmer for a month, dropped my fuge lighting to 2-3hrs a night just enough to keep the chaeto alive and started dosing No3. Aug/2023 finally got my nitrates up to 15-20ppm and brought the skimmer back online. First only for 6hrs a day, then increased to 12hrs and now it's running 18hrs per day. Same with the fuge light - I've sort of balanced the two and that keeps my nitrates between 10-15ppm

 

No, no "special" cures, meds or snake oil added to the tank

 

My chaeto grows like crazy. I pull a softball sized amount out every 3-4 weeks. Hmmmm I'm starting to think the chaeto could be the culprit here. If I were to remove all the chaeto would this shock the system for a few days? Anything I need to worry about? Maybe I should remove the chaeto, run my skimmer 24/7 and go back to weekly water changes for a while and see what happens

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

Considering you have chaeto I'd query if your potassium or iron is low. They're not something corals need LOADS of, but macro can be heavy on it (in fact a lot of planted reef keepers dose iron...) 

In your shoes I'd do an ICP test personally. From memory I think they're about £30 

[Staticmoves]

In our size systems, water changes and patience would be the gold standard.

 

[seabass]

9 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

I ran the skimmer 24/7 for the first ~9mos and it virtually stripped my tank of nitrates.

The system is significantly different now.  Skimmers won't remove nitrate, but they do remove organics which would eventually break down into nitrate.  So with your current system you should be able to run your skimmer continuously without bottoming out nitrate.

 

 

9 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

If I were to remove all the chaeto would this shock the system for a few days? Anything I need to worry about?

I wouldn't think that removing the chaeto (fast or slow) would cause any major problems.  However, you'll have to watch nutrient levels, as lack of stability can add stress.  I suppose that you could just keep harvesting chaeto faster than it grows, which will eventually (and more slowly) get rid of it altogether (maybe keeping nutrient levels more stable).

 

 

9 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

Maybe I should remove the chaeto, run my skimmer 24/7 and go back to weekly water changes for a while and see what happens

I'd be tempted to try that, especially if nutrient levels increase without the chaeto.  The water changes should also help to balance water chemistry (replenishing some of the consumed elements, like iron).  But don't expect immediate results; it'll probably take a bit of time before you see noticeable changes.

 

 

7 hours ago, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

In your shoes I'd do an ICP test personally.

That's not a bad thought.

 

[mcarroll]

15 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

I ran the skimmer 24/7 for the first ~9mos and it virtually stripped my tank of nitrates. Around that same time I added chaeto to my fuge to add a little more 'natural' filtration

Skimmers are almost more of a mechanical filter (with aeration!) and they don't directly affect nitrates.

 

Chaeto, on the other hand, can do exactly what you described....most green algae can.  "Luxury uptake" is one term for it.  

 

On top of that, Chaeto (and most green algae) can also drive massive bacterial growth as they exude sugary carbon substances into the water respiration.   This carbon-charged bacterial growth can easily take already-low nitrate levels down to 0.00 ppm levels.

 

If this is still going on, disable the fuge light and take out the chaeto until the system really has a need for it.  (And stop blaming the skimmer. 😉😉 ) 

 

15 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

Hmmmm I'm starting to think the chaeto could be the culprit here.

Yes.  Either that or your tank belongs on nano-chaeto.com instead of here. 😉 

 

15 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

Anything I need to worry about?

...not having this issue anymore?  🙂 

 

15 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

weekly water changes

You can even do those irregularly.  Maybe start off with one nice big water change to replenish things.  But after that, do them "as needed" when you see nutrient levels get too high OR alkalinity levels get too low....which might be twice a week, or not at all.

 

[fivedeuce]

On 1/11/2024 at 9:46 PM, seabass said:

The system is significantly different now.  Skimmers won't remove nitrate, but they do remove organics which would eventually break down into nitrate.  So with your current system you should be able to run your skimmer continuously without bottoming out nitrate.

 

 

I wouldn't think that removing the chaeto (fast or slow) would cause any major problems.  However, you'll have to watch nutrient levels, as lack of stability can add stress.  I suppose that you could just keep harvesting chaeto faster than it grows, which will eventually (and more slowly) get rid of it altogether (maybe keeping nutrient levels more stable).

 

 

I'd be tempted to try that, especially if nutrient levels increase without the chaeto.  The water changes should also help to balance water chemistry (replenishing some of the consumed elements, like iron).  But don't expect immediate results; it'll probably take a bit of time before you see noticeable changes.

 

 

That's not a bad thought.

 

Quick update

 

I removed all the chaeto and disabled the fuge light on Friday. Did a 20% water change yesterday making sure to turkey baster blast the rocks and sand bed thoroughly and replaced the filter floss. Skimmer is now running 24/7 and decreased ALK dosage by 0.2ml (1.2ml less per day)

 

Ran a full battery of tests today and levels are as follows:

 

CAL - 415

ALK - 9.6

PH - 8.2

No3 - 6

Po4 - 0.06

Salinity - 1.025

Temp - 78

 

No3 dropped from 10.1 to 6ppm and Po4 is up a pinch. I guess only time will tell. If my nitrates drop much lower should I start dosing No3 again?

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, fivedeuce said:

If my nitrates drop much lower should I start dosing No3 again?

If you're watching closely, then I think you have plenty of wiggle room, even below 5 ppm.

 

But if you don't test NO3 often, then it might be better to establish a baseline with dosing.

 

In any event, see if things balance out on their own.  (Doesn't make too much sense that NO3 would take a downward trajectory when you remove the macro algae.)  

 

Make sure you're feeding the fish (frozen or live is ideal) adequately so there's a balance of N:P:etc going into the tank.

 

PO4 levels are much more crucial and it is fine right now....with plenty of room to go up.

[seabass]

The changes sound good.  Now the nutrients should become more available to your corals.

 

Yeah, I agree with mcarroll, it's a little strange that nitrate would go down after getting rid of the fuge.  But it's not due to the skimmer (it physically can't remove nitrate from the water).  Still, keep an eye on the levels; the drop might just be due to normal testing error.  But if either nitrate or phosphate start to bottom out, I wouldn't hesitate to start dosing.  I might target dose phosphate at around 0.10 ppm and nitrate around 5 ppm.

[seabass]

One more thing, we are trying to improve conditions for all photosynthetic life.  So while you currently don't have an algae problem, don't be surprised to see some new algae start to pop up.  Don't consider this a problem, but don't let it get out of hand either.  Just get some more turbo snails to help keep it in check.  Also, you are a very important part of the cleanup crew, and the need for some manual algae removal is to be expected.

[fivedeuce]

14 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If you're watching closely, then I think you have plenty of wiggle room, even below 5 ppm.

 

But if you don't test NO3 often, then it might be better to establish a baseline with dosing.

 

In any event, see if things balance out on their own.  (Doesn't make too much sense that NO3 would take a downward trajectory when you remove the macro algae.)  

 

Make sure you're feeding the fish (frozen or live is ideal) adequately so there's a balance of N:P:etc going into the tank.

 

PO4 levels are much more crucial and it is fine right now....with plenty of room to go up.

In your opinion, what ratio should I aim for between No3 and Po4?

[fivedeuce]

9 hours ago, seabass said:

The changes sound good.  Now the nutrients should become more available to your corals.

 

Yeah, I agree with mcarroll, it's a little strange that nitrate would go down after getting rid of the fuge.  But it's not due to the skimmer (it physically can't remove nitrate from the water).  Still, keep an eye on the levels; the drop might just be due to normal testing error.  But if either nitrate or phosphate start to bottom out, I wouldn't hesitate to start dosing.  I might target dose phosphate at around 0.10 ppm and nitrate around 5 ppm.

Well I did do a 20% water change so I'm not surprised that my nitrates fell. Haha my local LFS said it's a blessing that my nitrates and phosphates are so low, most of their customers struggle to bring them down and here I have to start dosing to keep them up. I'm starting to wish I bought a 4 or 5 head dosing pump

[seabass]

2 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

Haha my local LFS said it's a blessing that my nitrates and phosphates are so low, most of their customers struggle to bring them down and here I have to start dosing to keep them up.

Without your macroalgae fuge, you might find yourself in the same boat.  Don't start dosing until you see a downward trend.  But it would be a good sign if your corals were consuming more nutrients than what is being produced/introduced.

 

 

On 1/10/2024 at 1:12 PM, fivedeuce said:

I now only have a frogspawn, 2x hammers and a torch coral (the torch is the only one that I'd say is semi happy with slightly extended tentacles).

LPS coral will benefit from target feeding it lightly a couple times a week.

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

In your opinion, what ratio should I aim for between No3 and Po4?

 

4 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

Well I did do a 20% water change so I'm not surprised that my nitrates fell.

A drop is one thing – and your drop does make sense.  A trend is another.  I was just saying a trend would be weird if it turned into one.

 

4 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

Haha my local LFS said it's a blessing that my nitrates and phosphates are so low, most of their customers struggle to bring them down and here I have to start dosing to keep them up. I'm starting to wish I bought a 4 or 5 head dosing pump

That sounds like someone worried about algae growth than coral welfare.  (Which is fine, but not what you're trying to focus on.)

 

As far as your corals are concerned...stability and availability are more important than a specific ratio or "low" or "high".  (Check out this article.)

 

Specifically, availability of phosphates is by far the most critical – and at least for corals (probably most photosynthetic critters) there seems to be a minimum requirement of 0.03 ppm.  Once stabilized, you shouldn't have to keep dosing the system with liquid N and P.  You can always add nutrients to your ATO reservoir if you need a slower/automated way to add them.

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

Silly question but I'd have thought stability (especially w/ a non-thriving tank) would matter more than a certain number for any specific parameter, so long as it's vaguely 'in range'? Not sure if it really applies in reef tanks but I was always told not to chase numbers.

[seabass]

6 minutes ago, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

Silly question but I'd have thought stability (especially w/ a non-thriving tank) would matter more than a certain number for any specific parameter, so long as it's vaguely 'in range'? Not sure if it really applies in reef tanks but I was always told not to chase numbers.

I'd agree that stability is very important (especially when we are talking about alkalinity).  I'd also warn people not to chase pH levels.  However, maintaining minimum nutrient levels would be more important than keeping them stable at insufficient levels.  We're also talking about recovery, where phosphate can help coral recover.  Think about a starving person; would it be more critical to provide immediate nutrition, or maintain their current diet (which is slowly starving them)?

 

However, typically, I usually recommend making changes slowly (so as not to stress our tank inhabitants).

[TheKleinReef]

On 1/12/2024 at 1:54 AM, mcarroll said:

Skimmers are almost more of a mechanical filter (with aeration!) and they don't directly affect nitrates.

when i think you can't give any worse advice you always surprise me. 

never have skimmers claimed to remove nitrates from the water, they have always (at least in my 12 years of reefkeeping) been marketed as a mechanical filtration to remove organics that will eventually break down into nitrates. 

 

OP, please be careful with mccaroll's advice. he talks the talk, but never walks it. that's why he doesn't update his build thread. 

 

I would start with one thing at a time. my first move(s) would be to let the alk fall to 8.5-9 and cal 400-440, keep mag above 1300. my second one would be to not under estimate the importance of flow, the more flow around corals, the more nutrient's get to them. I was always so cautious of flow until i went snorkeling and felt and saw the amount of flow on the reef. 

[fivedeuce]

22 hours ago, seabass said:

Without your macroalgae fuge, you might find yourself in the same boat.  Don't start dosing until you see a downward trend.  But it would be a good sign if your corals were consuming more nutrients than what is being produced/introduced.

 

 

LPS coral will benefit from target feeding it lightly a couple times a week.

I am going to start testing every two days to see what happens with my water chemistry. I make sure to spray them with a little bit of krill/mysis whenever I feed the tank but they don't seem really receptive to it at the moment. I am hoping weekly water changes will reintroduce all the trace elements that have probably been stripped from the tank

[fivedeuce]

20 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

A drop is one thing – and your drop does make sense.  A trend is another.  I was just saying a trend would be weird if it turned into one.

 

That sounds like someone worried about algae growth than coral welfare.  (Which is fine, but not what you're trying to focus on.)

 

As far as your corals are concerned...stability and availability are more important than a specific ratio or "low" or "high".  (Check out this article.)

 

Specifically, availability of phosphates is by far the most critical – and at least for corals (probably most photosynthetic critters) there seems to be a minimum requirement of 0.03 ppm.  Once stabilized, you shouldn't have to keep dosing the system with liquid N and P.  You can always add nutrients to your ATO reservoir if you need a slower/automated way to add them.

I will be sure to read the article. I am not concerned about algae growth in the tank; the skimmer, filter floss and my clean up crew should be able to tackle that no issue

[fivedeuce]

16 hours ago, TheKleinReef said:

when i think you can't give any worse advice you always surprise me. 

never have skimmers claimed to remove nitrates from the water, they have always (at least in my 12 years of reefkeeping) been marketed as a mechanical filtration to remove organics that will eventually break down into nitrates. 

 

OP, please be careful with mccaroll's advice. he talks the talk, but never walks it. that's why he doesn't update his build thread. 

 

I would start with one thing at a time. my first move(s) would be to let the alk fall to 8.5-9 and cal 400-440, keep mag above 1300. my second one would be to not under estimate the importance of flow, the more flow around corals, the more nutrient's get to them. I was always so cautious of flow until i went snorkeling and felt and saw the amount of flow on the reef. 

Haha shots fired!! Love it...

 

Actively working to drop ALK at the moment slowly. CAL is stable at ~420ppm but I will have to test MAG (have never done so), maybe I will swing by my LFS this evening to do that

 

I have not calculated exactly how much flow I have in my tank but between the return pump and two power heads I feel as though there is more than enough. I'll try and get you a semi accurate number

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿

[TheKleinReef]

3 hours ago, fivedeuce said:

Haha shots fired!! Love it...

he hid/muted me so he can't see me call him out 🙂