Home Office Shallow Reef

[rimga123]

I curious to see how does that liverock look like after being in "captivity" for so long. god knows how it was stores, how many tank crashes it had and what "good" is left on it.

I hope that it helps with the issues that you are having!

but i'd say that you may need a different approach to your dino problem. Like someone mentioned here, would be great to identify which strain of dinos you are dealing with 

[geekreef_05]

Well!

 

Both rock shipments have arrived.

Summary: serious weaksauce.

 

J&L Aquatics: 

Painted rock. Cured in ocean water. This is all of it. 

I think it actually looks quite nice. Should have started my reef with this stuff initially. 

 

 

 

 

And now the re-used liverock: 

This is about 30% of my order in the pictures. And wow, does it look bad. Its barren. Stark. 

 

Its probably the worst liverock ive ever seen. Lol. No life. No real coralline.

 

They have definitely scrubbed it. Maybe dark cycled or cooked. This may have even out of water and dry for sometime.

 

There's no trace of anything fuzzy, spongey, slimey. Some peices have tiny specs of corraline. Just tiny. 

 

This is terrible. 

 

Now i already broke up some into rubble and put it into the back chamber of the waterbox 20.

 

For the office reef, im considering my options. Likely i will remove some rock from the existing scape and replace them with live and fake rock. Hoping that some of this microbiology will help balance my reef...

 

[geekreef_05]

4 hours ago, rimga123 said:

I curious to see how does that liverock look like after being in "captivity" for so long. god knows how it was stores, how many tank crashes it had and what "good" is left on it.

I hope that it helps with the issues that you are having!

but i'd say that you may need a different approach to your dino problem. Like someone mentioned here, would be great to identify which strain of dinos you are dealing with 

Its a good call. For sure. 

 

I think even of the DINOS are cured, im still left with the white bacteria problem. 

 

If the addition of these rocks dont help. Then for sure. Microscope. 

[mitten_reef]

The purple stuff is called “real reef rock”, it’s a brand name. They’re one of the first to create manmade stuff and i think the quality is pretty good. 
 

The real rocks have minimal, kinda expected it. If it’s old enough to be called Fiji, it probably had gone thru multiple crashes and restart. 
 

my thing about “seeding” these rocks with more life forms. Go around to different LFS, grab a few small rubbles from their sumps/tub, whatever, and add those to your sump (even in the display). Different shops will no doubt have different ratio of beneficial bacteria present in their system, even sponge and others, depending on how well maintained they are.  Best case, if any of your shops do direct import, then grab some of the base rubbles that corals were attached to, that’d really introduce some wilder microbes from (presumably) mariculture farms where they’re imported from. 
 

good luck with those rocks. They look nice, tbh. They just will never be like Tampa bay saltwater or gulf live rocks that were truly farmed and harvested from the ocean.  I follow tbs on Instagram, and their rocks are full of life. 

[geekreef_05]

Ya i appreciate the thoughts Mitten. I have definitely been up and down those ideas.

 

Being up in Canada there are zero liverock options. I would have ordered from Tampa Bay Saltwater, but they only ship internally. 

 

I checked with my local LFS (there's only one in my area) and they basically don't want to sell any of their rock and sand. Its the base of the stores system. 

 

I may ask them to just 'hold some rock for me'. Put it in their system to cure for 3 months. Im gonna suggest it to them next weekend. 

 

Im tempted to just ask people to scrape off a slice of coralline, put it in a zip lock and mail it to me lol 

 

Help a northern reefer out lol.

[KC2020]

I know at least on reef shop in Toronto that carries live rock. They do ship when they have it in stock.

[Staticmoves]

8 hours ago, geekreef_05 said:

Ya i appreciate the thoughts Mitten. I have definitely been up and down those ideas.

 

Being up in Canada there are zero liverock options. I would have ordered from Tampa Bay Saltwater, but they only ship internally. 

 

I checked with my local LFS (there's only one in my area) and they basically don't want to sell any of their rock and sand. Its the base of the stores system. 

 

I may ask them to just 'hold some rock for me'. Put it in their system to cure for 3 months. Im gonna suggest it to them next weekend. 

 

Im tempted to just ask people to scrape off a slice of coralline, put it in a zip lock and mail it to me lol 

 

Help a northern reefer out lol.

Big Al’s in Barrie has 2 tanks with live rock for sale. Some of it has been there a long time, and added to from tank tear downs as well. I believe 12.99/lbs.

i peek at it from time to time.

that’s about a 1 hr drive for you.

[geekreef_05]

8 hours ago, KC2020 said:

I know at least on reef shop in Toronto that carries live rock. They do ship when they have it in stock.

Thanks! 

 

Fragbox was one of the first places i checked. Im pretty sure its illegal to import liverock, so i dont think they're getting another shipment. 

[geekreef_05]

1 hour ago, Staticmoves said:

Big Al’s in Barrie has 2 tanks with live rock for sale. Some of it has been there a long time, and added to from tank tear downs as well. I believe 12.99/lbs.

i peek at it from time to time.

that’s about a 1 hr drive for you.

Appreciated! Interesting that its a Big Als. Hm. Sounds about the same as what ive bought from Aquarium IIllusion, re-used liverock.

I think now ive got more LR than i can use. My intention wasnt to replace all my existing rock. Just like 30%. I now have more than enough rock.

 

Im gonna wait a few days for the rock to settle in the buckets and consider what im gonna replace, while keeping the same general aquascape.

 

[geekreef_05]

UPDATE! 

 

Things look terrible! But lets see if they get better. Like clockwork the white bacterial infection returned, as it does every 2 to 3 weeks. 

 

Even the double uv sterilizers arent enough to prevent the bloom. They are my only line of control though, taking one week to clear up. 

 

Knowing that...lets see if the liverock helps any! 

 

Bacterial Infection: 

Prior to replacing the rock i took a couple photos. The rock is in the bucket. I laid out the rock on the black garbage bag and quickly went to work replacing parts while removing snails and shrimp carefully from the old marco rock.

 

 

 

 

 

Live Rock Replacement: 

I ended replacing about 60% of the rock and ultimately adding some volume of rock to the reef. 

 

 

 

 

I doubled checked that all fish and shrimp are accounted for, scanned the old rock and then took a break to let it settle. 

 

I might prep a water change. 

 

Lets see what happens. There was almost no visible life on the liverock, but when i bucket cycled it last week i could smell the cycle. So something is alive on the rock, despite it looking super barren..

[Koleswrath]

Fingers crossed for you!

[geekreef_05]

Den Reef: Waterbox 20 cube.

I'll start a journal for this reef eventually, but right now serves as a good double check... (first photo, no lens filter)

 

Its also 1 year old and just rock, livesand. No inhabitants. No filteration. No light this far. And as with the Office Reef its suffering from a total lack of coralline. But unlike the Office Reef, its extremely stable. 

 

This week i started a light cycle. Its been at super low lighting over the last year. Within 48hrs there was a small brown bloom which resided quickly. 

 

And its had purple helix coralline aglae put in it. No effect. 

 

Back in the day, after 1 year a reef would be filled with coralline. 

 

 

 So i took some liverock and broke it up, filling the middle rear chamber. 

 

Then i took the creame of the crop liverock - the only peice with any real sign of coralline and placed it in the display coralline side pointing up.. 

 

 

Lets go in closer...

 

Oh yah! Look at that piece. That one tiny quarter pound of rock has the potential to save both my reefs. If it spreads nicely in the Den reef i could move the peice to the Office Reef. 

 

Grow coralline, grow!

 

Also..this Den Reef is so much easier to photograph cause the lighting is more white than super deep blue. 

 

Lets see what happens. 

[rimga123]

Why do you think that coralline algae is the key ingredient for a successful reef tank?

I personally always look at it as a negative. because it grows fast, scraping it of the glass is often a pain and it blocks all the little pores on the rocks, presumably suffocating the bacteria that lived there before.

but if you really want it, I think that you can buy something that is called  "coraline in a bottle" or something like that. not sure how well it works, but may help to speed up the process for you.

[geekreef_05]

46 minutes ago, rimga123 said:

Why do you think that coralline algae is the key ingredient for a successful reef tank?

I personally always look at it as a negative. because it grows fast, scraping it of the glass is often a pain and it blocks all the little pores on the rocks, presumably suffocating the bacteria that lived there before.

but if you really want it, I think that you can buy something that is called  "coraline in a bottle" or something like that. not sure how well it works, but may help to speed up the process for you.

 

Coralline is an essential ingredient on the reef. Its a building block of coral as well as reefs themselves on both the micro and macro scale. Im shocked at the question to be honest.

 

There are a hundred reasons that coralline is needed. If there are any reefers who dont understand why coralline is essential i encourage folks to google and increase their understanding of its place in reef ecosystems.

 

I have tried Coralline in a bottle, as per my post above. Ive tried it on two separate reefs. I appreciate the idea. But it didnt work for me on either reef.

 

[rimga123]

I am not saying that you are wrong or anything and I won't pretend that I know everything there is to know about coralline algae benefits and negatives to the tank. just from previous random readings on forums that I have done in the past and my own experience.

I don't see much appeal for it or that many positives.  I know that some algaes, like hair algae, does't really grow on it and some people love the look of coralline, but I haven't heard that it somehow keeps the whole tank within balance (although I am also not saying that it is false, I just haven't seen anything about it )

it does suck up a lot of elements out of the water, which could be a negative.

 

[geekreef_05]

UPDATE! 

The liverock has been in the reef since yesterday afternoon. Not even 24hrs. 

 

At that time (see previous post) the white bacterial infection was once again taking hold. It was building and blooming. It comes every 2-3 weeks and takes a week to fight off with UV 

 

And the result this morning (reef lights havent really started for the day) ... 

 

 

 

Looking "down the pipe" im able to see a little fuzzy layer has built up on the glass overnight and wow, its super clear. We can easily see right down to the other side. Check out my last post for comparison from yesterday with the white bacteria. 

 

I could not be happier this morning. I feel like i should have a glass of champagne or something. After a year of struggling with this problem i feel like its finally behind me. 

 

The liverock has definitively solved one of my major Issues. I feel like saying so many things: 

- chalk one up to old school reefing

- liverock > dry rock 

- occasionally good things happen quickly on the reef. 

 

Next Steps: 

I'll be monitoring DINOs. Lets see what effect the liverock has on them. 

 

The skimmer waste line clogs every couple weeks. I need to figure out how to extend its maintenance window another week. Maybe a larger tubing line. Worst cause i turn it off when im traveling and do a water change when i get back. 

 

The brine feeding line has an interesting challenge. Alot of food sticks to the outside tubing line, which hangs in the reservoir. I'll take a photo but the build up gets to like 2" of brine covering the tube. When that happens, not enough brine is floating around to be dosed into the reef. What i thought before was a clog, turned out to be this problem. Brine build-up. 

 

So still a couple minor things to resolve. But im feeling good with this white bacteria nightmare behind me. 

[debbeach13]

7 minutes ago, geekreef_05 said:

Looking "down the pipe" im able to see a little fuzzy layer has built up on the glass overnight and wow, its super clear. We can easily see right down to the other side. Check out my last post for comparison from yesterday with the white bacteria. 

Very noticeable difference. 

[boscoT]

Hey, 

 

I have read through most of your thread here.  I saw a few flags when you started out, and some were discussing chasing parameters.  **This happened to me years ago with my first hot tub**. I quickly learned that less is more.  I was an old school reefer as well, being out of the hobby for 12 plus years.  I have little to offer by way of knowledge compared to many here.  

 

I set up this 24gal AIO with one main theme... Less is more.  I want to enjoy this hobby again, I don't want it to be a pain or time consuming and most importantly, when I am busy; I want it to be able to take care of itself somewhat.  

 

I spent money on things like ATO, water movement and wifi based devices to afford me remote access.  

 

I am slow moving and I think in the beginning you may have been doing way more 'experimenting' and chasing.  I read that you were dosing high ml of AFR daily, then dosing with Kalk, mag, alk on top of.  You also started using Red Sea coral pro salt, also adding in a ton of nutrients.  This is simply too much

 

I got a bit carried away with my nitrate and phosphates over the past 7 months and bottomed out on phosphate.  I have been slowly adjusting my strategy to address the slight green algae spike that I was experiencing.  I am not sure what you are currently dosing in your tank currently, but obviously there is something off causing you such problems.  

 

This has been my first go at dry rock as well and I do miss live rock, but this is manageable going slow and steady for me.  I have not yet added coral, I have slowly increased my bio-load and introduce CUC as needed.  

 

Over the past few weeks, I have been focusing on tank maintenance, cleaning the rear chamber more often, weekly water change to vacuum the substrate issue areas and removing chemi blue from the system to help fix my 0 phosphates.  I have learned more about UV sterilization and water flow *clarifying vs sanitizing* and most importantly being patient in between changes.  

 

I have added aqua forest carbon in small batches every few weeks and I had to supplement bright well NeroPhos to get phosphates up in the tank.  

 

I found a guy named Swiss reefer on YouTube and he has a top 10 video of things that he uses and it turns out that I use 8 or 9 of those features as well.  His tanks are beautiful and he keeps things simple.  

 

Just be mindful of chasing numbers, dosing things that you shouldn't be or your tank is not consuming, adding salt with high nutrients on top of dosing, and throwing in a ton of things that really only create headaches for you.  

 

I am using the blue bucket Red Sea salt as I am dosing with AFR currently. I test phosphate weekly currently but nitrate and alk once a month now.  If my alk is good, I'm not playing with anything else in the tank.  I understand lower mag levels with AFR, but I have nothing in the tank requesting supplemental dosing at this time.  

 

Also, Fragbox gave me a chunk of coraline several months ago and I crushed it up and scattered it along my rock.  One piece about 1" in diameter has seeded my entire tank and spreading like crazy.  

 

I still have a dyno problem, very slightly but I think that it will correct itself in a few more months.  Once that is under control, I will begin adding a few corals to the tank.  

 

Fingers crossed for you and I hope that you are able to turn things around.  Again, this is not a critique as much as an overall observation from reading this thread from page 1 to 12.  

 

 

 

[geekreef_05]

Its a good idea to just ask for a chunk of coralline from a reef store. I'll probably do that in the future. 

 

I think its important to explore how one can improve parameters at the outset of a reef, especially in the first year. In particular i was after strong Mg and pH. 

 

I achieved the Mg levels and the torch corals looked amazing during that period. But the pH required alot of exploration. And even then, its not as high as it should be. 

 

So now I know what helps pH, what doesnt, what the trade off's are for each method. If i did not explore those things, i wouldn't have the knowledge or the solution. 

 

When i find a solution i usually dont stop there. I continue to explore. Thats just me. I want to know if it could be better. So i say to each their own. 

 

In addition. Everyone in reefkeeping is in for "the rollercoaster". When you stock a reef for the first time, even with 3 corals, they will start to have an effect on parameters. As a reefer you need to respond with dosing and other adjustments. 

 

Its in that crucial period that alot of testing and dosing changes are required. 

 

In contrast to my Office Reef is my Den Reef, which has been mentioned a couple times in this journal. They were stared at the sametime, but the Den Reef has been only rock and sand for a year. Thats going slow. I dont know anyone going slower than that. I have patenience. The Office Reef has been a moving train since the first stocking.

 

 

All that said. I did state in my journal that no one should ever move that fast and that I was taking a bug risk and that it would create a 3 month rollarcoaster of dosing adjustments. That first conception of the office reef died last summer, due to equipment failure while i was away. 

 

In this restart, ive just got fish. No coral yet. Until i see some coralline growth, i probably wont be putting any in. 

 

Im dosing just a tad Mg to keep levels around 1450ppm and MB7 daily. Alk is steady cause there's zero consumption. Nirtates are steady 5-10ppm. 

 

I appreciate that you read my TJ and hope it made you think deep thoughts about reefing haha. 

 

[geekreef_05]

Well, its been 3 days since adding liverock. Whats changed? 

 

- what clarity is excellent. 

- the white bacterial infection is gone

- DINOs are gone. 

- When DINOS vanished, my water flow notably increased through the UV units and HOB. 

- A small diatom bloom came and went in 24hrs.  

- Cyano has now taken over as the predominant microbiology

- the skimmer went nuts for 48hrs pulling out what I assume to be alot of dead baterical matter. 

- skimmer has been creating some microbubbles in the display over the last 2 days. Might be the effect of working overtime, pulling out bacteria. I keep an eye on it and retune it if needed.

- the stark white liverock is quickly becoming brown and purple with these algaes. 

 

To my new cyano i say - welcome. Ah, an old school reefing problem thats easy to solve and not life threatening to my system. 

 

Im counting this as a big win. I feel like im back into my reefing comfort zone. 

 

What a major shift from a reef that couldn't find its footing. All from liverock - terribly barren looking liverock i might add - adding the right balance of microbiology.

 

I need to clean the glass off, so i dont have any good photos at the moment. 

 

Tomorrow i'll post photos. The progression of the rock from white to brown is shocking, given the timeframe. 

 

[geekreef_05]

So after 4 days of liverock the reef looks like this.. 

 

Clarity down the pipe is excellent. I can see all the way to the other end.  

 

 

Generally its easy to see how much colour the rock has gained. Lets go in for a closer look. 

 

Lots of cyano covering the sandbed now. 

 

 

And look at the liverock, up close. Consider it was stark white just 4 days ago.

 

Generally things are good at this point.

Fish are good. 

One remaining shrimp is good. 

 

Lets see if that white bacteria or DINO  tries to make a comeback in another couple weeks. 

 

What im thinking now is that i should immediately stock up on snails. I may place an order this evening.

[geekreef_05]

I just placed an order from Candy Corals - 40 Snails! 

20 Margaritas 

20 Trochus

 

I'll put 30-35 of them into Office Reef. 

And 5-10 will be for the Den Reef.  

 

I also bought a 20lbs bag of ocean direct live sand. After syphoning all the DINO's through the year least, I pulled out and dumped alot of sand. Even my wife is like 'that aquarium looks like it needs more sand". 

 

Knowing this will cause a little storm, I'll wait for an opportune moment. Maybe in combo with a good water change.  

[KC2020]

Congrats !

Glad to see you're headed back to a healthier balance. The ugly stage is never fun.

[rimga123]

Make sure to keep your nutrients up, because the way dino went away it can also comeback overnight. It can always out compete again, it is not unheard of to have dino in an established tank with live rock. in some of the images look like there are still some Dino left, not just cyano.

 

 

[geekreef_05]

Its been 2 weeks since the liverock had gone into the system and.... 

 

 

...things are good! Way more stable. 30 snails went in and they are settled, grazing on the rock.

 

No sign of the white bacteria, that would usually rear its head again around now. 

 

And DINOs are pretty much gone. 

 

Cyano is now dominant, but its starting to show signs of dissipating. 

 

Over the last week ive unplugged the skimmer. It tends to clog every 5 days. I cant figure how im gonna make it reliably automated for 21 days. 

 

So i wanna see what nitrate levels the reef settles at when i have no skimmer going. Will it be within an acceptable range? Lets see.