Is there a way to tell if LEDs are past the expected bulb life

[debbeach13]

You can read all this crap or you can just answer the question in the title.

Almost all of my light fixtures get different use. Set up on a certain tank. Use for a while maybe months maybe years. Maybe end up not being used but saved when a certain tank is taken down.

 With HO-T5, CF even MH when in doubt I would buy new bulbs. Often prompted by increased algae grown. They were all easy to replace - snap out the old snap in the new. With led's is it only when they burn out? I could not possible come up with how many hours a certain fixture has been used.  I have had power supplies crap out on led fixtures but never have the bulbs stopped lighting with a good power supply. 

I am curious because I have a very old LED fixture that has been used for years. 1st on my 3 gallon JBJ picotope but then often briefly each time. QT or on tanks that eventually got a different light or taken down. I put it on the tank that started this time to cycle dry rock, helped by adding live rock, now has a BTA in there added 11/15/20. The BTA appears to be doing well and growing. I am amazed. I was going to change to a different light but then wondered why if this one seems to still be working ok. I hate the other lights mount and have never used it much. 

The light I am using is a Green Element EVO clip on 12 - 4 x 10K daylight, 2 x actinic 460mm can be run just blue or all (white and blue) or off by a toggle switch no adjustments no programming. 

[Christopher Marks]

Quote

Many LEDs have a rated life of up to 50,000 hours. This is approximately 50 times longer than a typical incandescent, 20-25 times longer than a typical halogen, and 8-10 times longer than a typical CFL. Used 12 hours a day, a 50,000 bulb will last more than 11 years.

The quality and spectrum of light from LED diodes shouldn’t change over time, so using them long term on an aquarium is a pretty safe bet. Like you’ve seen, the LED drivers and controllers are more likely to fail before the LEDs themselves do.
 

Fluorescent and metal halide bulbs actually do change their spectrum over their lifespan, which is already much shorter compared to LEDs, so their window of usefulness is narrow on an aquarium, even when they still light up after years of use. 

[debbeach13]

Thanks for the reply. Now I feel even better about using a light I have used only occasionally since 2013.

[Clown79]

Good quality leds usually have a lifespan of 12yrs.

 

 

[farkwar]

UVs burn out pretty early

 

They literally burn the little lenses that covers them. Cut the lens off with a razor blade, and should be good to go again

 

Other than that, even at 10 years, most Cree LEDs are at 90% intensity at 10 years

 

It's the electronics or housing form factor that get antiquated. And in the case of Radions, it's the LED distribution and lens/reflector that became obsolete(their Bluetooth electronics are garbage out of the box for me at least)

[Jakesaw]

On 12/11/2020 at 10:52 AM, Clown79 said:

@Clown79 Good quality leds usually have a lifespan of 12yrs.

I wish I could believe that re: Reef lights.  But with LED's in general I'd agree.

 

The fact that AI Primes and Kessils are not  inexpensive and only have 1 year warranty leads me to believe they don't last anywhere near that length with Reef lighting application.  Probably because the fans stop working from lack of fan cleaning maintenance or the saltwater underneath mucking things up. 

 

If I could confidently get that 12 yr lifespan out of the above mentioned lights, I'd have less reservation on my decision to buy one.  FWIW I'm still running a 30 year old flourescent from my first fish tank.  Only replaced the starter a couple times and a few new bulbs, but it never gets really hot.  

 

That being said, I have zero experience with reef tanks, and I just read the negative reviews on Amazon today, so that may be skewing my thoughts on the issue.  I could be wrong.

[farkwar]

You must have my account on ignore. Deleting my replies

[farkwar]

Deleting

[Jakesaw]

7 minutes ago, farkwar said:

Fish don't need a specific spectrum, or specific PAR or PUR, or specific distribution in order to live

I should clarify it's on a FW tank. 

 

I'm visit to learn and plan my mixed reef tank as first saltwater tank.  Just reflecting that LED's are an investment and inexpensive lights of FW are comparably less expensive.  Agree it's not worth much, and a dime a dozen used, but you got your money out of what you bought. 

 

If my first reef light * AI Prime or kessil 160we " planned at the moment last 10 years, I'd be more than happy with light.  If in 2-3 years and dead I'll be disappointed.

[farkwar]

I wouldn't worry about the Kessil

 

will last longer than your tank

 

 

[Jakesaw]

2 hours ago, farkwar said:

I wouldn't worry about the Kessil

 

will last longer than your tank

Good to know.  Would you say the same of the AI Prime HD16?

[farkwar]

I've never had an AI light

 

I have never heard that they have any longevity problems either

 

People were using Sols, long past the use by date, I know that.  But they were minimalistically simple too

[Clown79]

21 hours ago, Jakesaw said:

I wish I could believe that re: Reef lights.  But with LED's in general I'd agree.

 

The fact that AI Primes and Kessils are not  inexpensive and only have 1 year warranty leads me to believe they don't last anywhere near that length with Reef lighting application.  Probably because the fans stop working from lack of fan cleaning maintenance or the saltwater underneath mucking things up. 

 

If I could confidently get that 12 yr lifespan out of the above mentioned lights, I'd have less reservation on my decision to buy one.  FWIW I'm still running a 30 year old flourescent from my first fish tank.  Only replaced the starter a couple times and a few new bulbs, but it never gets really hot.  

 

That being said, I have zero experience with reef tanks, and I just read the negative reviews on Amazon today, so that may be skewing my thoughts on the issue.  I could be wrong.

I had a ai still running after 5yrs with 0 issues.

[Clown79]

21 hours ago, Jakesaw said:

I wish I could believe that re: Reef lights.  But with LED's in general I'd agree.

 

The fact that AI Primes and Kessils are not  inexpensive and only have 1 year warranty leads me to believe they don't last anywhere near that length with Reef lighting application.  Probably because the fans stop working from lack of fan cleaning maintenance or the saltwater underneath mucking things up. 

 

If I could confidently get that 12 yr lifespan out of the above mentioned lights, I'd have less reservation on my decision to buy one.  FWIW I'm still running a 30 year old flourescent from my first fish tank.  Only replaced the starter a couple times and a few new bulbs, but it never gets really hot.  

 

That being said, I have zero experience with reef tanks, and I just read the negative reviews on Amazon today, so that may be skewing my thoughts on the issue.  I could be wrong.

Half the lights on Amazon are not high quality lights but rather budget lights. Build is different as well as the leds used to make them.

 

Ai is a high end company now owned by ecotech. Very little reported issues with longevity. You will always have negative reviews.

 

Sometimes you get a lemon, sometimes lights get banged around in shipping, sometimes its the user not taking care of the lights themselves- like cleaning the fan grill which causes overheating leading to issues with the light(ppl rarely admit they are the cause of the problem)

 

You can't compare led to fluorescent. Completely different. 

[I'm Batman]

3 hours ago, Clown79 said:

ai still running after 5yrs with 0 issues.

Did you update the firmware? My calendar in the web interface ends in 12/31/2020.

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, I'm Batman said:

Did you update the firmware? My calendar in the web interface ends in 12/31/2020.

My husband dealt with any updates required, never updated any actual parts. Never any need to.

 

I cleaned mine every few weeks with compressed air which is recommended by Ai. Alot of ppl don't clean the fan grill, that's where the issues start.

 

Ppl have complained their lights have fallen into the tank- often the reason is because they set up the bracket backwards.

[mcarroll]

On 12/29/2020 at 1:59 PM, Jakesaw said:

FWIW I'm still running a 30 year old flourescent from my first fish tank.  Only replaced the starter a couple times and a few new bulbs, but it never gets really hot.

You're comparing bulbs (or emitters) and fixtures.....or apples and oranges.

 

LED emitters are rated for 5-10+ years.  Heat is the main thing that shortens that time frame....historically there has been some problems with this....folks want to overdrive things and do more with less when LED's dictate the opposite.  These days it seems like makers have generally gotten the memo on this.  Things like power supplies do sometimes wear out faster than the emitters, but should be replaceable in most cases.  In general, LED fixtures don't wear out though.

 

The bulbs in a florescent (or metal halide) fixtures are good for 6-12 months tops, and aren't available at the hardware store with the correct spectrum...so they're $20+ each.  Similar to LED fixtures, in general a florescent fixture doesn't wear out other than the bulbs.

 

When you add up power costs and bulb replacement costs over a few years T5's are quite a bit more expensive than comparable LED's...especially if you aren't shopping top of the line LED fixtures.  The extreme comparison is budget DIY LED vs T5.  I can (hypothetically) build and throw away a basic LED fixture every year for about the cost of one replacement set of T5 bulbs. (See @TinyGiant's Chinese led thread for the base formula.  I've built three lights off that base pattern.)

[MainelyReefer]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:12 PM, Jakesaw said:

Good to know.  Would you say the same of the AI Prime HD16?

I’ve had 2 kessils fail within a year of new. I still have my original AI prime from ~5 years ago, runs great.  My 3yo prime hd can no longer “overdrive” certain channels or else it overheats likely from neglect to the screen on the fan, however runs great with ramped down levels so perfect for nano use anyways.  I still love kessils too btw and have a few a80’s but wouldn’t ever waste money on a 360 again, and my a150 was so LOUD but was so reliable no ramping just on.

[Jakesaw]

16 minutes ago, GraniteReefer said:

I’ve had 2 kessils fail within a year of new. I still have my original AI prime from ~5 years ago, runs great. 

Ya had to say that today did ya...!

 

I had just settled tonight on the Kessil A160we as my choice.  Main reasons were Prime's Disco ball color shimmer and Kessil seemed to have a little better PAR were my main reasons.  Plus their coral grow spectrum dialed in seemed good for a greenhorn.

 

Decisions decisions

 

 

 

 

[MainelyReefer]

5 hours ago, Jakesaw said:

Ya had to say that today did ya...!

 

I had just settled tonight on the Kessil A160we as my choice.  Main reasons were Prime's Disco ball color shimmer and Kessil seemed to have a little better PAR were my main reasons.  Plus their coral grow spectrum dialed in seemed good for a greenhorn.

 

Decisions decisions

 

 

 

 

You’ll be fine.... maybe lol.  Another aspect to consider is that the AI has been updated more recently so may be more future proof.  The a160 has been unchanged for many years, however the dense matrix LED chip does make that wonderful shimmer and the spectrum is certainly easier to dial in for a beginner. Perhaps kessil developers feel If it’s not broken don’t fix it?  Another reason so many opt for the AI over the kessil is the necessity for an external spectral controller on the kessil to get a ramp up/ down schedule with varying spectrum, about 100$ more and IMO it’s adjustability is not on par the the AI even with the controller.  Hold onto the warranty for that Kessil and fill it out if needed, I’ve warrantied my fair share.

[Jakesaw]

4 hours ago, GraniteReefer said:

You’ll be fine.... maybe lol.  

Thanks,

 

The Ai was my first choice for a good while with all the features specifically software ramp / up / down / color changes throughout day.  

 

The 3 AI Prime dings for me were from  viewing alot of reviews / video and written 

 

1) Mounting - their hanging option was a bit odd to me / goosneck had some reported flaws / and the arm although attractive had it's reported flaws at the mounting point ( fixture leaning forward / pinched cord / weakness of plastic in tank would eventually give in from what I read ) 

 

2) noisy fan ( Hard to know how big a deal this is over internet video but it's been noted more than a few times )

 

3) Shimmer seemed to have a disco ball effect that wasn't attractive to me.  There is a diffuser but BRS reports that diffuser lowered the PAR significantly while it spread the light and got rid of disco ball.  

4) PAR - Both lights were highly rated, but Kessil I gathered had higher PAR - would give me more coral options looking ahead. 

 

5) AI Prime used overdriving LED feature and I figured would reduce lifespan, but your comments on Kessil vs AI suggests my concerns could be misplaced. 

 

I'm still considering the two lights ( again now ). .  but last night literally I had decided on Kessil before reading your post.  I'm a value oriented buyer of all things, so longevity is important to me as an investment.   Light would start on a 10 - 29 gallon and grow into mount on 40 breeder in future with a 2nd fixture.  

 

If you had any comments on the above 4 points, I'd appreciate any feedback on those issues. 

[mcarroll]

Hm...I can say this...

 

1) I have the Kessil mounting arms on my 360X's and they are as slick as snot.  (That's a good thing - VERY slick.  lol)

2) I can't hear the fans run in my Kessils when they are on, not even when I'm right next to them.  And they don't run all the time.

3) I think disco ball effect is much ado about nothing and doesn't bother me (or corals) in the least.  It's only "internet-important" if you take my meaning.  But the Kessil's dense matrix emitters/lensing system is still very superior.

4) You won't lack in either case.  Watts are very similar, so output will be too.

5) I'm not sure about this feature, but sounds like something that WOULD shorten an emitters life – strange option to have if that's the case.  Lets them advertise higher numbers without fibbing though, so it's a good marketing move.

 

I'm surprised you aren't looking at some strip LED's since you had a bit of favoritism for florescent lighting.  I would suggest looking at Current USA's Orbit and Orbit IC setups, as well as Orphek and other similar offerings.  Shoot for around the same total watts as the Kessil or AI setup.   *I think* you can get a setup that will work on the current tank AND a 40 Breeder since they aren't too far apart in size.

 

(I'm not good at bringing decisions to a conclusion....can you tell? LOL)

[Jakesaw]

21 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

 

3) I think disco ball effect is much ado about nothing and doesn't bother me (or corals) in the least.  It's only "internet-important" if you take my meaning.  But the Kessil's dense matrix emitters/lensing system is still very superior.

 

 

I'm surprised you aren't looking at some strip LED's since you had a bit of favoritism for florescent lighting.

 

(I'm not good at bringing decisions to a conclusion....can you tell? LOL)

re: Disco Ball effect ( different than kessil shimmer ), I just don't want the visual to be hard to look at that I won't enjoy viewing my tank  I did notice my planted tank has a simmer on the rock that I never noticed.  But it's heavily planted and the substrate is lost in all going on in the tank.  

 

I have no favoritism to Flourescent lights.  I just happen to have an unused T5-HO lamp laying around - aka Free to Me short term.

 

I lean to what works the best for lowest spend today and long term.  If that's LED I'll go that way.  If it's something else, my bias will bend that direction.  If the Kessils and AI Prime last 4 + ish Years with no HO bulb replacement, that seems like the best option at the moment. If the fixtures were dying every year, it'd be a short term hobby to me as I wouldn't want to keep replacing the lamps every year. 

 

I moved away from the Budget lighting option b/c seemed like I'd outgrow it in less than a year or so and would want to buy a new fixture anyway.