What is wrong with this green acro?

[jefferythewind]

Yeah its an LED, it is actually pretty big and wide but I have been raising it recently, seems much nicer the higher it is. I will post a picture of this light. What kind of light are you using?

 

So this morning I tested phosphates and did not register anything, I added and tested and started reading a little phosphates then I added a little more to shoot for about 0.05 - 0.10 range. After adding that last dose I went out for about 4 hours and tested again and still registered what I think is the correct range ( see pics ). I'm going to give it all night and test in the morning.

 

I have to say It looks like the damage has subsided from the orange setosa. Actually still had a couple open polyps today. Seems weird that it all of a sudden started turning white even though it has been doing well while the acro has had problems. Just checked the Alk and Ca to make sure they are still correct and yes they are still at the same levels.

 

I have to say, this test kit is pretty cool. Looks actually to be geared toward the "ultra-low" nutrient range. The highest it reads is 0.15. I looked up the Hanna checker and it said it can read even levels over 1, and only had an accuracy of +- 0.04. After almost buying the Hanna I think I will use this until it runs out.  

 

I did a little research and it seems it has happened before that you have to put quite a bit of phosphate into the tank before it even starts to register as above zero. Then once you get to the point that is shows up on the test, the level responds pretty accurately to adding the NeoPhos.

[Thrassian Atoll]

I have 4th gen radions.   Raise the light until you just start to see overspill from it.  Then you can increase the intensity.  Hard to know what the par would be without a par meter but I am sure other people are using the light and have more info on intensity and height they run it at.  
 

It depends what Hanna you get.  You want the ultra low range If you ever go that route.  It’s so nice not having to distinguish between 20 shades of light blue haha.

 

I am glad nothing is receding more.  Test for a week or so, everyday, every other day.  You will figure out what your tank consumes and can dose daily from there.  I check my nutrients once a week usually.  

[jefferythewind]

Oh yeah I see this Hanna checker has even ppb units, I guess that means parts per billion?

 

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/phosphorus-ultra-low-range-colorimeter-hi736-hanna-checker-hc-marine-water.html

[Thrassian Atoll]

I have the ultra low phosphorus which is ppb.  It’s a little weird to convert to ppm phosphate though.  I don’t recommend that one unless you have an apex that will convert it easily.  They came out with an ultra low range phosphate not too long ago though.  They also just released the nitrate checker but that’s low range and only goes to 4 ppm.  Waiting until they come out with one that reads higher without diluting.

[jefferythewind]

Just checked again phosphates this morning and it was at zero and i had to add 10 ml, 5ml at a time, which should be .1 ppm, and it was only registering 0.01 on the test. I added 5ml and will check again when I get home in the afternoon. Orange setosa has a few more polyps open today 🤙

[mcarroll]

On 9/24/2020 at 7:34 PM, jefferythewind said:

Lot of testing here but I am hopeful about the results.

There's no danger of overdosing.  Corals and plants will all love it.  The "worst case scenario" of algae growth isn't even a real problem..it's an aesthetic issue.  The worst that can happen is that you don't do anything about algae when it grows – like remove it and/or get snails to eat it.  Nothing like that is going to happen overnight though...and even if it does it's not really bad for the tank in any way...it's just some more work for you to clean up than if you hadn't let it take over.  Be aware and act when needed, but this isn't worth worrying about.

 

You have real problems right now – corals are dying.  You're being needlessly timid with the correction.

 

Photosynthetic corals generally require a minimum of 0.03 ppm of phosphate to sustain photosynthesis without damage.  That's over and above their needs for other essential life processes like growing and reproducing and healing. 

 

To give you an idea what the problems are like in real life, here's what corals, coral tissue, and coral symbionts look like under various conditions, including low-phosphate:

 

(H=high;L=low;N=nitrate;P=phosphate)

(From: Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates)

 

You can see that these frags are literally riddled with holes and other deformities under low phosphate conditions....and you can see at the human-eye level how they look under these conditions.

 

Translate this to SPS and you have what you see on your acros and setosa.

 

On 9/25/2020 at 10:28 AM, Thrassian Atoll said:

Your soft corals looked to be doing great.  Kind of weird they aren’t suffering from lower nutrients.

I think thicker skinned corals (by definition including those with no skeleton) have an advantage in their ability to shield their symbionts from light more completely.  It could be that zonathids have specialized adaptations to protect their symbionts as well.
 

Thinner skinned corals naturally have less places for symbionts to "hide" in addition to having that bright white skeleton reflecting back a significant amount of light, and increasing the total exposure of their symbionts.  Branching corals like Acro's are supposed to grow in the form they do to self-shade as much as possible.  I think I've seen numbers that say they decrease their relative "energy exposure" (to light and water!) by something like 60% thanks to their branching form.

 

On 9/25/2020 at 11:42 AM, jefferythewind said:

Anyways, I've got the ViparSpectra 165w Aqua Light. I have blue on 34 and white on 2. They both go to 100. Its something else I've been not so sure about. 

Get a lux meter...a decent, basic handheld from eBay or amazon is fine.  I use an LX-1010B, just for reference.   In a pinch there are free lux meter apps you can download to your smartphone, but they aren't always straightforward to use when you're getting started.

 

Let us know when you get some measurements at the water line.  👍

 

On 9/25/2020 at 1:09 PM, Thrassian Atoll said:

I don’t know what that light is.  Looks to be very center tank focused though.  Might think about raising it a little bit to get more spread.

It's a good, cheap "black box" light – but I agree about the look.

 

@jefferythewind a 29 Gallon tank has a 30" x 12" surface to light – very rectangular, not square.   Also, your fixture more than likely has 90º lenses.  90º lenses coincidentally gives each emitter a "correct mounting height" that is equal to its coverage radius (or half of the coverage diameter).

 

To avoid spilling light into the room over the front and back, you will need to mount the fixture around (12"÷2=)6" off the tank.  Unfortunately this leave the ends under-lit AND this light has a wicked center-hot spot thanks to the emitter layout – so the hot-spot effect is really prominent.  (Your fixture has this in common with all similar "black box" designs.  See the Ocean Revive T237 for an example of a better layout – at least for bigger tanks.)

 

If you raise the light to make side-to-side coverage better, then you end up lighting the room with light that "spills out" over the front and back of the tank.  Not good for your eyes and aesthetically bad too.

 

Your corals will adapt, so fixing this is optional.....but if you wanted to fix it and keep the same brand of light, then swap this for their 30", 300-watt unit.  You'll have to run it at a slightly lower power, but coverage at 6" should be a lot better – it might be even better lower than 6" with a full-length fixture like that.  There are tons of other alternate lighting setups to consider too if you end up wanting to switch...not really recommending the 300-watt fixture as "the best option" or anything.

 

5 hours ago, jefferythewind said:

Just checked again phosphates this morning and it was at zero and i had to add 10 ml, 5ml at a time, which should be .1 ppm, and it was only registering 0.01 on the test. I added 5ml and will check again when I get home in the afternoon. Orange setosa has a few more polyps open today 🤙

You really want to manage this more aggressively/precisely just as you would for alkalinity dosing.  

 

Letting PO4 crash back to zero is allowing more damage to happen every time.  This is defeating the point of dosing...you may as well go back to overfeeding to something else that didn't give you all the control you need to fix this.

 

Dose to a higher level (e.g. 0.20 ppm) if you can't test and dose more frequently.

 

Or test and dose more frequently.

 

In any event keep PO4 nailed at 0.10 or higher.  

 

Do not let it go back to zero....there is no other short term priority than this.

 

If your plans include preventing further damage to these corals, this is really imperative.  Half measures will not meet the need. 

 

You have the tools and supplies now – time to take the kid gloves off and handle this.  😉 👍

Edited September 26, 2020 by mcarroll
Forgot link that goes with that amazing picture.

[Thrassian Atoll]

.2 phosphate seems pretty high to me, but I have no clue how accurate that test kit is.  That and the shades look the same blue to me.  Haha

[Tired]

Some reef tanks run with 1 or 2 phosphate, and no I didn't misplace a decimal point. The only potentially negative thing phosphate does, in any number you could get via any reasonable means, is possibly encourage algae growth. 

[Thrassian Atoll]

1 hour ago, Tired said:

Some reef tanks run with 1 or 2 phosphate, and no I didn't misplace a decimal point. The only potentially negative thing phosphate does, in any number you could get via any reasonable means, is possibly encourage algae growth. 

That’s nuts...

[Tired]

Well, bear in mind, 1ppm of something isn't very much. That means that your water sample contains 999,999 parts per million of other stuff. For some idea of what that means, imagine putting about 1/4 of a cup of something into the average in-ground swimming pool, and you have probably added more than 1 ppm of whatever was in the cup. Phosphate just isn't toxic at those levels, or anything near them. Corals don't necessarily need 20 times a good phosphate baseline, but it won't hurt 'em any. Helps keep you from hitting 0, at least! 

[mcarroll]

42 minutes ago, Thrassian Atoll said:

That’s nuts...

My system is one of those.  

 

1.0 ppm for PO4 and 100 ppm for NO3...both on Salifert.  (Both easy to read at those levels.  😉)

 

I look at PO4 like oil in an engine.  Too much might make a mess...nothing worse.  But too little, like zero, is catastrophic to the system.

 

Nitrates are like gas.  You can run out, but that just shuts off the engine until you get more – no harm.

[Thrassian Atoll]

11 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

My system is one of those.  

 

1.0 ppm for PO4 and 100 ppm for NO3...both on Salifert.  (Both easy to read at those levels.  😉)

 

I look at PO4 like oil in an engine.  Too much might make a mess...nothing worse.  But too little, like zero, is catastrophic to the system.

 

Nitrates are like gas.  You can run out, but that just shuts off the engine until you get more – no harm.

Any algae issues?  Do you have a refugium? 

[Tired]

 Invisible algae, maybe. I sure don't see any algae problem in one of the, um, four total pieces of coral-including visual media in this thread. 

[jefferythewind]

Well thank you @mcarroll for that, it was great. OK well I know what you mean now. I have to say that @Thrassian Atoll seems to be echoing what you see in a lot of the published information about how much phosphate is good for corals. You can see on the Aquaforest test kit it says "best for your corals" at 0.01 - 0.03. On the bottle of NeoPhos it says, don't add more that 0.04 ppm! However also I haven't seen it written that high phosphates causes anything besides algae.

 

Anyways I understand what you're saying how zero is worst, and I get that. I just put quite a bit in there and tested. Since my test tops out at 0.15 I will make sure it is at least that level every time I top it off. Thanks for all thee help! This is all very interesting.

[Thrassian Atoll]

At the end of the day, everyone’s tank reacts differently I think.  Some people can run high or low nutrients without issue and some can’t.  There’s a ton of factors at play including lights, import/export, alkalinity levels, how established the tank is including rock.  You just need to find your tanks pleasure spot with everything.  

Fun thread though!  Interesting to hear everyone’s opinions.

[Tired]

True enough. But there are a lot more tanks that will handle high nutrients than there are ones that will handle low. And a lot of algae (worst-case for high nutrients) is way better than dead corals. For most tanks, it's probably better to aim for a reasonable amount, and see how that works. Especially for newer reefers. I doubt there are any decently healthy tanks that won't do at least reasonably well with moderate nutrients, even if they do better with high or low.

[jefferythewind]

I added phosphates until over 0.15 last night, as far as I could tell, then added a little more, and this morning still had about 0.05 and added more. starting to get the hang of it. Testing again now at lunch. Things look about the same as yesterday color-wise but today the polyps aren't opening on the setosa. Anyways i know i need to keep things steady and wait for a few weeks at least to see if anything survives. Thanks again for all the help.

[jefferythewind]

Kept the phosphate levels up all day today. Over the past couple days I have had to add between 40 and 50 ml of this juice every day to keep the levels up there around ~0.15. This is the equivalent of about 0.4 - 0.5 ppm per day. At this rate I will need another bottle pretty soon. Now I know why people have dosing pumps 🙂 Things look about the same today but the setosa DID open a few of the polyps today. The acro looks the same. Should have gotten a pic when the light was on. Seems like the Red Monti was opening slightly today and the soft corals all seem to love the new water. 

[Tired]

Hopefully, once the tank has overcome its deficit, you won't need to add nearly as much. It just might take a bit to get that far. Think I've read about rocks absorbing phosphate when the levels have been low for awhile?

 

Sounds like things are improving, though! 

[Thrassian Atoll]

I remember I had to dose a lot more at first to get

my numbers to stabilize. After a while the amount you need to use should slow down.

[jefferythewind]

Wish things looked better this morning. The setosa is still whiter than before. The acro definitely does not look any better either, probably worse. Besides that other things all look pretty good. Like I said, the zoas and other softies look very good. I know you all said it will take time to see any improvement and things may continue to get worse.

 

You can see just a little bit of good color in the tips of the Setosa. Just something kinda strange to me is that the Setosa grew a lot during the first month I had it, it was going well. Not sure why all of a sudden it got so bad. Overall appearance has gone down since starting the phosphate dosing.

[Tired]

The coral probably did well at first because it was, essentially, riding on having been kept well in the prior tank. That's how long it took to fully react to the conditions in your tank. 

[Thrassian Atoll]

Sorry to hear that.  Might be a good idea to send off for an ICP test as well before you add any more sps.  Just to make sure everything else is good water wise.

[mcarroll]

6 hours ago, jefferythewind said:

Overall appearance has gone down since starting the phosphate dosing.

What you're seeing is a result of everything that has happened over the last 3-4 weeks or so.  You've only had PO4 levels nailed for a day or so.  Dosing PO4 will stop further damage from photosynthesis, but with all the ups and downs it's possible that things were already too far gone before you got it nailed.

 

On 9/26/2020 at 8:02 PM, Thrassian Atoll said:

Any algae issues?  Do you have a refugium? 

Some cyano and a lot of coralline.  The only current presence of green algae is in a few very brightly lit spots with really high flow.  (Two powerheads and the skimmer intake.). It's doesn't grow much though.

 

No refugium.  But I like Sprung's observation at MACNA in his "refugium battle" that everything is a refugium.  So "Yes refugium, but not what you have in mind."  😉

 

It is run as a self-contained All In One.  No back chamber.  No external boxes.  Just the internal Tunze skimmer and filter you see in the pic.  I have semi-regular 15 gallon water changes as my only "nutrient export" aside from the protein skimmer.

[jefferythewind]

Well everything is subjective I guess. My wife actually thought the setosa looked better today. But yes I understand what you're saying about the delays and all. Yeah I'll take it slow just keep checking the levels. I recently checked the Alk, Ca, Mg, and Nitrates and they are all steady. Magnesium seems high, 1600, from that salt I was using. Ca is 400 and Alk is like 8.8 now, down slightly. Nitrates were about 10.

 

Anyways thanks to all fo you for help. I know I still need to get a light meter and test it to make sure that is good as well. We'll keep it going.