Giving up with sps...

[darksun92]

Hi group! I’m almost giving up with sps corals  I tried almost everything, they arrive to home with good color and polyp extension and some hours after there’s no polyp extension And some days afters they start to STN In the case of acros and with other sps like montiporas they bleach but there’s polyps visibles.

 

Parameters

Salinity: 1.025

Temp. Goes from 28 to 29 I live on the Caribbean and is the coldest Temp that I can maintain with a fan, there’s no chiller for a 8g tank they are oversized and overpriced for me at the moment. 

Kh: 8.4

Ca: 420

Mg: 1350

No3: 20

Po4: 0
 

All my parameters are stable I dose calcium and alkalinity, water changes weekly with reef crystals by 15% without affecting my parameters, with skimmer and without skimmer, feeding corals with reef roids and reef chilli, giving full vitamins of Aquaforest Amino, vitality, build and energy and it appears doing anything, 1 Year and 3 months tank mature, I changed 2 times my full water with And without RO/DI water, less light and more light with slow changes and every single acro Start to STN of RTN, what I’m doing wrong? What can be the problem? 

[Tamberav]

0 PO4 isn't good although I am surprised it is 0 with how much stuff you are putting in the tank. What do you use to test it?

 

Did you start with dry rock or live?

 

Your tank seems over complicated to me. I just keep is simple so less to go wrong.

 

84 does seem on the warm side. 

 

Do you use tap or RODI?

 

What lighting?

[SaltyGallon]

"Do you use tap or RODI?" was my question too - and if so are you content with the water quality? You should consider an ICP test or similar because it sounds like you're largely on top of your parameters.

[Elizabeth94]

Temp is a bit high I agree. You said you change your water without rodi? Probably part of the problem there. Im also curious if you started with dry rock. I find even a year of dry rock doesn’t mean its mature. Especially if you dip corals well its hard to introduce the good stuff. 
 

What flow do you have in there? 

[Thrassian Atoll]

Photo of the tank?

[mitten_reef]

1 hour ago, Thrassian Atoll said:

Photo of the tank?

Closest thing I found to a tank journal and maintenance info. 

But more recent tank pictures would be good. 

[mitten_reef]

IF temperature is your only issue:

I’d suggest get one of those in-window ac unit and run it during the hottest hours of the day. 

What’s your light fixture? Can you increase the distance from the tank? 
can you consider remove unnecessary filtration equipments? More pumps = more heat transfer to the water. 

[darksun92]

6 hours ago, Tamberav said:

0 PO4 isn't good although I am surprised it is 0 with how much stuff you are putting in the tank. What do you use to test it?

I agree with you, I feed a lot with frozen food, I have 2 fish in that tiny tank and still 0 Phosphate, I use Elos test kit and hanna checker they gave me same results.

 

6 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Did you start with dry rock or live?

I started with dry rock one year and 2 months ago

 

6 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Your tank seems over complicated to me. I just keep is simple so less to go wrong.

You mean with easiest corals?

 

6 hours ago, Tamberav said:

84 does seem on the warm side. 

It's my principal suspect

 

6 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Do you use tap or RODI?

RODI now and before the tank change I used human consumption water but same results.

 

6 hours ago, Tamberav said:

What lighting?

Prime HD with about 30% of power

 

 

3 hours ago, SaltyGallon said:

"Do you use tap or RODI?" was my question too - and if so are you content with the water quality? You should consider an ICP test or similar because it sounds like you're largely on top of your parameters.

RODI now and before the tank change I used human consumption water but same results. There's no stores or place in my city or country that do ICP test.

 

3 hours ago, Thrassian Atoll said:

Photo of the tank?

I'll upload some photos in a while

 

1 hour ago, mitten_reef said:

Closest thing I found to a tank journal and maintenance info. 

But more recent tank pictures would be good. 

 

Yes still having problems, I'll take some photos and upload 

 

51 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

IF temperature is your only issue:

I’d suggest get one of those in-window ac unit and run it during the hottest hours of the day. 

What’s your light fixture? Can you increase the distance from the tank? 
can you consider remove unnecessary filtration equipments? More pumps = more heat transfer to the water. 

Yes I hace window AC unit but It will need to stay on 24 hours everyday because outside the temp is about 35, I have one prime HD with the metal arm and it's in his max height, I only use my skimmer and one wave maker.

[darksun92]

3 hours ago, Elizabeth94 said:

Temp is a bit high I agree. You said you change your water without rodi? Probably part of the problem there. Im also curious if you started with dry rock. I find even a year of dry rock doesn’t mean its mature. Especially if you dip corals well its hard to introduce the good stuff. 
 

What flow do you have in there? 

RODI now and before the tank change I used human consumption water but same results, I Started with dry rock one year ago, only one power head from jebao in the weakest side because is very powerfull

[Tamberav]

@darksun92

 

I see no reason to use a skimmer if you have 0 phosphate. I wouldn't use a skimmer on that small of a tank regardless. 

 

I meant the feeding seems over-complicated to me. 

[darksun92]

12 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

@darksun92

 

I see no reason to use a skimmer if you have 0 phosphate. I wouldn't use a skimmer on that small of a tank regardless. 

 

I meant the feeding seems over-complicated to me. 

I use the skimmer for these reasons tell if I’m wrong 

- I don’t have any other kind of filtration just rocks and sand 

- 2 Fishes (Bicolor Bennie and Yellow tail damsel) in a 12x12 cube Seems too much and decided to put the skimmer 

- Counting that I have acros and my nitrates are around 20-15 with the skimmer 

[Tamberav]

33 minutes ago, darksun92 said:

I use the skimmer for these reasons tell if I’m wrong 

- I don’t have any other kind of filtration just rocks and sand 

- 2 Fishes (Bicolor Bennie and Yellow tail damsel) in a 12x12 cube Seems too much and decided to put the skimmer 

- Counting that I have acros and my nitrates are around 20-15 with the skimmer 

 

There are successful tanks on here that have no filtration outside of live rock and good flow. 

The tests don't point to an issue with too many nutrients. If the skimmer has a motor inside the water, I would remove it since it is adding heat.

There are acro tanks that run higher nitrates than 15-20. You could always do larger water change or more frequent ones but you need to get that PO4 up too. You can buy products to dose PO4 which may be the quickest fix but it needs to be brought up slowly. 

 

So basically:

Get PO4 up

Get the heat down

 

I would start by removing the skimmer 😉

 

 

[jservedio]

19 minutes ago, darksun92 said:

I use the skimmer for these reasons tell if I’m wrong 

- I don’t have any other kind of filtration just rocks and sand 

- 2 Fishes (Bicolor Bennie and Yellow tail damsel) in a 12x12 cube Seems too much and decided to put the skimmer 

- Counting that I have acros and my nitrates are around 20-15 with the skimmer 

No reason to leave your skimmer on, at least for now - it's also dumping extra heat into your tank. I don't run any filtration at all and it's never been an issue.

 

Your temperature is really high - like high enough where that alone could be killing your SPS. I would imagine that combined with the stress of shipping is killing them no problem.

 

While your alkalinity is fine, check it every day for like a week or so before adding more SPS - if it is dropping rapidly between water changes, that could be an issue as well that you need to address.

[darksun92]

9 hours ago, Tamberav said:

 

There are successful tanks on here that have no filtration outside of live rock and good flow. 

The tests don't point to an issue with too many nutrients. If the skimmer has a motor inside the water, I would remove it since it is adding heat.

There are acro tanks that run higher nitrates than 15-20. You could always do larger water change or more frequent ones but you need to get that PO4 up too. You can buy products to dose PO4 which may be the quickest fix but it needs to be brought up slowly. 

 

So basically:

Get PO4 up

Get the heat down

 

I would start by removing the skimmer 😉

 

 

 

9 hours ago, jservedio said:

No reason to leave your skimmer on, at least for now - it's also dumping extra heat into your tank. I don't run any filtration at all and it's never been an issue.

 

Your temperature is really high - like high enough where that alone could be killing your SPS. I would imagine that combined with the stress of shipping is killing them no problem.

 

While your alkalinity is fine, check it every day for like a week or so before adding more SPS - if it is dropping rapidly between water changes, that could be an issue as well that you need to address.

ok so I decided to remove the skimmer, and put a hob filter with filter floss, activate carbon and cycled spheres from marine pure, here are some pics.

 

 

[Thrassian Atoll]

That’s a hard one.  LPS look alright.  Need to get some phosphates for sure.  Not sure what test kit your using.  Temp is pretty high.  Get a larger fan or something.  I would get the temp down a degree or two at least. 
 

looks like you need some more flow too.  SPS need a lot of flow and I don’t see anything in there for flow.

[Tamberav]

You need a bigger fan or the ones that are a row of 3 and clip on. You basically angle a larger fan so it's blowing across most of the tank but not blocking light.

 

I use carbon in my tanks but go lite on it. Carbon is good at what it does and too much will piss corals off too.

[darksun92]

19 hours ago, Thrassian Atoll said:

That’s a hard one.  LPS look alright.  Need to get some phosphates for sure.  Not sure what test kit your using.  Temp is pretty high.  Get a larger fan or something.  I would get the temp down a degree or two at least. 
 

looks like you need some more flow too.  SPS need a lot of flow and I don’t see anything in there for flow.

 

9 hours ago, Tamberav said:

You need a bigger fan or the ones that are a row of 3 and clip on. You basically angle a larger fan so it's blowing across most of the tank but not blocking light.

 

I use carbon in my tanks but go lite on it. Carbon is good at what it does and too much will piss corals off too.

Ok so yesterday I feed 1 tsp of reef roids and 1 tsp of reef chilly and today tested with Hanna checker and Elos test kit and I couldn’t  believe that my Po4 was on zero again, I remove the other wave maker because I feel that was too much flow for that little size of tank but the HOB filter compensates a lot, I called to another friend with a bigger An better tank and I gave him all my acros until I found a solution to my problem, what do you think about this? I removed the skimmer and wave maker and my temp today was 28.3 whole day a little step further with my temp. 

[Tamberav]

14 minutes ago, darksun92 said:

 

Ok so yesterday I feed 1 tsp of reef roids and 1 tsp of reef chilly and today tested with Hanna checker and Elos test kit and I couldn’t  believe that my Po4 was on zero again, I remove the other wave maker because I feel that was too much flow for that little size of tank but the HOB filter compensates a lot, I called to another friend with a bigger An better tank and I gave him all my acros until I found a solution to my problem, what do you think about this? I removed the skimmer and wave maker and my temp today was 28.3 whole day a little step further with my temp. 

 

I have never had luck bringing up nutrients with food. 

 

I use this: https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-001111-Flourish-Phosphorus-500ml/dp/B0002APIJQ

[jservedio]

41 minutes ago, darksun92 said:

 

Ok so yesterday I feed 1 tsp of reef roids and 1 tsp of reef chilly and today tested with Hanna checker and Elos test kit and I couldn’t  believe that my Po4 was on zero again, I remove the other wave maker because I feel that was too much flow for that little size of tank but the HOB filter compensates a lot, I called to another friend with a bigger An better tank and I gave him all my acros until I found a solution to my problem, what do you think about this? I removed the skimmer and wave maker and my temp today was 28.3 whole day a little step further with my temp. 

 

 

There is going to be a lag between adding food and it being testable since the phosphorus is bound up in the food, not dissolved in the water column.

 

If you have a mechanical filter running floss, it's going to pull a lot of it out before it breaks down. Additionally, if you have an algae problem, it's going to be soaking up the phosphate as quickly as it's entering the water column.

 

Stop attempting to make huge chemistry changes overnight or you are just going to make things much worse. Swings in any parameter, not just alk and temperature, can have dire effects on your coral. Go slow when raising your nutrients.

 

You are adding entirely too much food all at once.

[darksun92]

On 7/18/2020 at 10:10 PM, Tamberav said:

 

I have never had luck bringing up nutrients with food. 

 

I use this: https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-001111-Flourish-Phosphorus-500ml/dp/B0002APIJQ

 

On 7/18/2020 at 10:36 PM, jservedio said:

 

 

There is going to be a lag between adding food and it being testable since the phosphorus is bound up in the food, not dissolved in the water column.

 

If you have a mechanical filter running floss, it's going to pull a lot of it out before it breaks down. Additionally, if you have an algae problem, it's going to be soaking up the phosphate as quickly as it's entering the water column.

 

Stop attempting to make huge chemistry changes overnight or you are just going to make things much worse. Swings in any parameter, not just alk and temperature, can have dire effects on your coral. Go slow when raising your nutrients.

 

You are adding entirely too much food all at once.

I have no algae problems the tank is pretty clean I don’t know what really consumes too much phosphate, anyways I ordered the seachem phosphorus and I’m going to start with 1ml daily and see what happens. 

[Cannedfish]

Another option to consider would be to dose phytoplankton.... Many of the phyto products out there contain a bunch of phosphate. This could have the additional benefit of feeding some micro-fauna and corals as well as adding diversity. 

[A.m.P]

8 minutes ago, Cannedfish said:

Another option to consider would be to dose phytoplankton.... Many of the phyto products out there contain a bunch of phosphate. This could have the additional benefit of feeding some micro-fauna and corals as well as adding diversity. 

Or you can dose up to the desired P04 level and then find a phyto dose which maintains it.

[jservedio]

49 minutes ago, darksun92 said:

anyways I ordered the seachem phosphorus and I’m going to start with 1ml daily and see what happens. 

That dose would be roughly 0.15 ppm of PO4 every single day in a tank your volume - that's....a lot. I would dose 1/2 that a single time and test to see how quickly your tank uses it up over the next day(s) to get an idea of what you really need to dose instead of just throwing caution to the wind. It'll also give you an assurance that you are doing everything correctly when testing with the Hanna checker.

[darksun92]

1 hour ago, Cannedfish said:

Another option to consider would be to dose phytoplankton.... Many of the phyto products out there contain a bunch of phosphate. This could have the additional benefit of feeding some micro-fauna and corals as well as adding diversity. 

I’m going to buy Phyto the next week, Betty difficult to find that kind of products in the city 😅

 

1 hour ago, Amphrites said:

Or you can dose up to the desired P04 level and then find a phyto dose which maintains it.

I’m on it 😄 

 

36 minutes ago, jservedio said:

That dose would be roughly 0.15 ppm of PO4 every single day in a tank your volume - that's....a lot. I would dose 1/2 that a single time and test to see how quickly your tank uses it up over the next day(s) to get an idea of what you really need to dose instead of just throwing caution to the wind. It'll also give you an assurance that you are doing everything correctly when testing with the Hanna checker.

I will test tomorrow and see how it changes, The last time I dosed the same product 1ml only rise to 0.05 per day so let’s see what happens, thanks a lot for your responses. 

[Tamberav]

4 hours ago, darksun92 said:

 

I have no algae problems the tank is pretty clean I don’t know what really consumes too much phosphate, anyways I ordered the seachem phosphorus and I’m going to start with 1ml daily and see what happens. 

 

There is a equation on the back I have found to be very accurate to target certain PO4 levels.