New SPS Turning White From Base Up

[DyloHeath]

Hello, I've posted a lot this week but here is another thread for my nano tank.

 

I have noticed one of my new SPS is turning white from the base up, the coral seems to be open and alive up top but a little rough below. I've had this frag for approx 1 week now,

 

Coral is pink pocci

 

I have flow directly on the SPS. And no other SPS in the tank is showing the same signs. And all other corals are happy as ever.

 

I have a new AI Prime 16 HD with the AB settings in acclimation mode for 10 days starting at 80%

 

In a earlier post this week I mentioned my Phosphates have been around 0.25 which I know is high (trying to work on this), could this cause this problem?

 

I've done a tonne of research for this but there seems to be so much conflicting information. Some people say this is the start of growth, others say "Quick! Frag it now before it dies", others say check for pests .Im a little lost!

 

For those that haven't seen my other posts, todays parameters were:

 

Mg: 1245

Ca: 390

Alk: 9.3

Phos: 0.25

 

I dip all frags in revive before they enter the tank

 

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[mitten_reef]

was the area showing any polyps when you placed the coral?  Looks a bit like minor handling damage to me, caused by your grip as you press the coral into the glue.  all the underlying flesh appears visible, pale but visible polyps, once zoomed in.  what are the 3 photos supposed to show, daily progression?  if so, which direction?  I notice almost no difference in them however.   I wouldn't be too worry,  pocci is one of the hardiest sps out there, give it a few more days.  

 

Please start a build thread, so we could see the whole picture of your tank status, vs answering one question at a time.  Context really helps when answering questions, and the more the better.  Nice that you're sharing parameters, etc already.  

[DyloHeath]

I have posted photos of the first day with the frag. It did have polyps there after gluing. 

 

All photos are the exact time, just slight different lighting and angles.

 

Thanks for the feedback @mitten_reef

 

You mean I should add the questions to my build thread here: 

 

 

 

 

[Clown79]

Lack of polyps at base is commonly caused from lack of flow/light to that area.

[mitten_reef]

7 minutes ago, DyloHeath said:

You mean I should add the questions to my build thread here: 

 

You have a very nice looking set up btw.  Not suggesting that you have to, but often you'd see people with long journal history just update the title to indicate what is the current topic concerning their tanks. For example, "Dylo's 60G Nano Reef Tank - xxxxx (questions, new photos, corals problem, etc).  You can always edit your topic by going to your first post.  Alternatively, when you post a question topic, you could put a link at the end saying that more info can be found in your build thread, giving people a chance to search for other clues.    

 

hmmm, so you definitely had more polyps before on the first day.  and it looks like the pump is pointed almost directly at it from your latest FTS in the journal.  So you're probably right that the little guy may not be used to having flow blasted at it, maybe try to point the powerhead angling away from it a little more?   

 

honestly, when you know your parameters are steady/stable, and your entire tank inhabitants are happy, don't chase after something just to please one unhappy coral.  Just let it ride.  

 

My hypothesis of why newly introduced corals tend to be the ones showing signs of unhappiness most often is that LFS tank and your tank could potentially have very different parameters.  Thus, it requires extra time for corals to re-acclimate to your tank.  Some also does better than others with dips; the list of factors go on and on.  

 

[Cannedfish]

17 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

honestly, when you know your parameters are steady/stable, and your entire tank inhabitants are happy, don't chase after something just to please one unhappy coral.  Just let it ride.  

^^ This 100%. Thunder Dome rules. 

[mitten_reef]

37 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Lack of polyps at base is commonly caused from lack of flow/light to that area.

per OP's journal FTS here: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/408165-dylos-60g-nano-reef-tank/?do=findComment&comment=5951253

 

neither low flow (almost opposite to powerhead) nor low light (high, center of tank under AI Prime) would seem to be the issue in this particular case.  That's why I put a confused face on your comment.  other ideas?  

[Clown79]

43 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

per OP's journal FTS here: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/408165-dylos-60g-nano-reef-tank/?do=findComment&comment=5951253

 

neither low flow (almost opposite to powerhead) nor low light (high, center of tank under AI Prime) would seem to be the issue in this particular case.  That's why I put a confused face on your comment.  other ideas?  

I'm sorry but i am not going to go to everyones journal to read pages of info for every question I help and answer on nano.

 

I feel that all pertinent info should be provided with the question for others to better help.

 

 

 

The only other ideas

 

It came in with problems because it looks like it in the first pic to already have lack of polyp and flesh on the base(as I circled in the pic)

 

Most often with sps parameter issues usually appear at tips and top of body whereas lower regions its flow/lighting.

 

Having a powerhead blasting directly onto sps can destroy their tissue.

 

 

[mitten_reef]

34 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I'm sorry but i am not going to go to everyones journal to read pages of info for every question I help and answer on nano.

 

I feel that all pertinent info should be provided with the question for others to better help.

totally understandable, and appreciate you continuing to help out others.  

 

 

 

[Clown79]

9 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

totally understandable, and appreciate you continuing to help out others.  

 

 

 

I didn't mean to come off as an ass, so I hope it didn't. That's just not my way.

 

I don't want anyone thinking I don't or others don't want to help, we do.

 

I come here mostly to help out. unfortunately searching for answers can take a lot of time which means taking valuable time some may not have as well as taking more responses to be able to help out 

 

If we all had tank specs in a signature(that even works on mobile phones)

 

Links to our journals for signatures(doesnt show up on mobile)

 

And all pertinent info given on the tank

 

We can help out better and faster.

 

If I have to go read a journal which can be pages, the chance of me helping in a timely manner becomes less likely.

[mitten_reef]

2 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I didn't mean to come off as an ass, so I hope it didn't. That's just not my way.

 

I don't want anyone thinking I don't or others don't want to help, we do.

 

I come here mostly to help out. unfortunately searching for answers can take a lot of time which means taking valuable time some may not have as well as taking more responses to be able to help out 

 

If we all had tank specs in a signature(that even works on mobile phones)

 

Links to our journals for signatures(doesnt show up on mobile)

 

And all pertinent info given on the tank

 

We can help out better and faster.

 

If I have to go read a journal which can be pages, the chance of me helping in a timely manner becomes less likely.

Nah, your comment was fine to me.  It helped me prove my point that i've been trying to make on a few of these question threads.  the forum had become so cluttered and fragmented with these questions that it's getting to not be fun for me.  My only way to contribute toward course-correction is to recommend people to start more build threads and keep discussions/questions in there, unless absolutely necessary (e.g. no response from followers, urgent livestock matters etc).  Ok, OP, I'll stop yapping now.

 

I had looked into the OP's journal because I suggested that he should start a tank thread, to which he replied with a link to one he had already created.

 

 

   

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, mitten_reef said:

Nah, your comment was fine to me.  It helped me prove my point that i've been trying to make on a few of these question threads.  the forum had become so cluttered and fragmented with these questions that it's getting to not be fun for me.  My only way to contribute toward course-correction is to recommend people to start more build threads and keep discussions/questions in there, unless absolutely necessary (e.g. no response from followers, urgent livestock matters etc).  Ok, OP, I'll stop yapping now.

 

I had looked into the OP's journal because I suggested that he should start a tank thread, to which he replied with a link to one he had already created.

 

 

   

Oh good! 😁

[DyloHeath]

On 6/10/2020 at 2:06 AM, mitten_reef said:

You have a very nice looking set up btw.  Not suggesting that you have to, but often you'd see people with long journal history just update the title to indicate what is the current topic concerning their tanks. For example, "Dylo's 60G Nano Reef Tank - xxxxx (questions, new photos, corals problem, etc).  You can always edit your topic by going to your first post.  Alternatively, when you post a question topic, you could put a link at the end saying that more info can be found in your build thread, giving people a chance to search for other clues.    

 

hmmm, so you definitely had more polyps before on the first day.  and it looks like the pump is pointed almost directly at it from your latest FTS in the journal.  So you're probably right that the little guy may not be used to having flow blasted at it, maybe try to point the powerhead angling away from it a little more?   

 

honestly, when you know your parameters are steady/stable, and your entire tank inhabitants are happy, don't chase after something just to please one unhappy coral.  Just let it ride.  

 

My hypothesis of why newly introduced corals tend to be the ones showing signs of unhappiness most often is that LFS tank and your tank could potentially have very different parameters.  Thus, it requires extra time for corals to re-acclimate to your tank.  Some also does better than others with dips; the list of factors go on and on.  

 

Thanks! Its been an interesting journey tearing one tank down within my first 6 months of reefing due to a crack!

 

Okay I'll update the journal as i go and see how the responses go, If I dont get much response I'll add a link to my journal in my signature.

 

Yeah much more polyps on the first day. But i noticed today that the polyps still come out where it is white which is interesting. I've changed the flow and adjusted the lighting a little bit, i think it was too intense.

 

I love hearing that one line of trying to make one coral happy while the rest are thriving, I think that is a great way to go about it.

 

I know for sure my parameters are way different to the mother colony, the guy I purchased it off is a marine biologist who plays around with the parameters to see the affects, his tank is absolutely stunning. But I know he keeps his calcium at 480-500 which he said is very intense but he slowly acclimated the corals to this and they are doing great. My calcium is around 400, so probably a bit of a shock. He doesn't recommend 480-500, he said to aim for atleast 420.

 

I'll keep an eye on the coral, and see how it goes over the next few weeks.

 

Also knowing my phosphates are a little high doesn't help.

 

In the next 7 days I will be:

 

- Testing parameters with new salifert kits (calcium, magnesium) and hanna checkers (phos, and Alk)

- Slowly vacuuming the sand bed in sections (I have never done this so it needs a good clean)

- Waiting for my skimmer to break in so its a little more effective

- I now have a ATO to help with the salinity swings (installed today)

- Feeding less, I was an overfeeder for quite some time

 

In the next 30 days:

 

- I will be replacing the two rocks to the right of the tank, I'm currently bleach treating, then curing leftover dry rock from the tank

- I will be getting rid of the leather coral (I will frag him up, might add a small frag back on the new rock I add), leathers make me a little nervous.

 

Reason I'm replacing the rock to the right is because im simply running out of room and would like more SPS up top.

 

[mcarroll]

On 6/9/2020 at 10:49 AM, DyloHeath said:

I have noticed one of my new SPS is turning white from the base up

Doesn't look too bad in the photos.  But are those of when the coral was new, or are they photos of the "damage" in question?  (We'd like to see a comparison if possible.)

 

Unless you can see it losing polyps, it might be just fine.  It'll start looking raggedy (not just bleached) if it's losing polyps.

 

On 6/9/2020 at 10:49 AM, DyloHeath said:

pink pocci

We have such lame abbreviations in this hobby.  😉

 

Call it a "birds nest" (its common name) if you can't call it a Pocillopora (its scientific name).

 

On 6/9/2020 at 10:49 AM, DyloHeath said:

I have a new AI Prime 16 HD with the AB settings in acclimation mode for 10 days starting at 80%

Not saying this is THE problem, but it pays to look first at what was most recently changed about the tank when you are troubleshooting.

 

I assume you would have mentioned that you have and use a light meter if you had and used one.  😉 

 

Get and use a light meter in the future when you're setting up or otherwise changing the lighting on your corals.  $7-$20 will get you a decent entry-level lux meter like I have.  You'll no longer have to guess about the amount of light you're putting into the tank.  👍

 

Cutting your light by 50% from current levels until you have this sorted out would be my recommendation if you really suspect the lights....but keep reading.

 

On 6/9/2020 at 10:49 AM, DyloHeath said:

In a earlier post this week I mentioned my Phosphates have been around 0.25 which I know is high (trying to work on this), could this cause this problem?

That's is fine.  Not high, and not causing this.  (Phosphates are one of the antidotes for this, for what it's worth.)

 

On 6/9/2020 at 10:49 AM, DyloHeath said:

I've done a tonne of research for this but there seems to be so much conflicting information. Some people say this is the start of growth, others say "Quick! Frag it now before it dies", others say check for pests .Im a little lost!

What you're seeing is the coral bleaching, which can be followed by loss of damaged tissue....which, if that happens, is referred to variously as "RTN" or "STN"...meaning either rapid or sudden tissue necrosis.

 

I'm still not sure that's what's happening in your case, or if you're just seeing pale polyps.  

 

Pale polyps at the base of a coral is not the same thing as bleaching, and is generally nothing to worry about.  But then you'll find in this hobby that someone is worrying about everything tho...some folks even worry about the shadows in their tanks.  (Not entirely relevant, but fun: "The most dangerous kind of person... is one who is afraid of his own shadow." – Philip K. Dick, A Scanner Darkly)

 

On 6/9/2020 at 10:49 AM, DyloHeath said:

I dip all frags in revive before they enter the tank

I would be suspicious of this being a cause if there does turn out to be an issue at work.

 

6 hours ago, DyloHeath said:

But I know he keeps his calcium at 480-500 which he said is very intense but he slowly acclimated the corals to this and they are doing great. My calcium is around 400, so probably a bit of a shock. He doesn't recommend 480-500, he said to aim for atleast 420.

Calcium levels noted above are relatively similar and relatively unimportant.  Ditto for magnesium.

 

6 hours ago, DyloHeath said:

Slowly vacuuming the sand bed in sections (I have never done this so it needs a good clean)

How old is this tank that it should need a good cleaning?  Unless it is OOOLLLDDD then it sounds like you need better flow if it already needs a good cleaning.

 

6 hours ago, DyloHeath said:

Feeding less, I was an overfeeder for quite some time

How do you figure that you were over feeding?

 

As a rule of thumb, feed as much as your animals can eat within 5 minutes.  Feed multiple times a day if more food is needed.

 

6 hours ago, DyloHeath said:

I will be replacing the two rocks to the right of the tank, I'm currently bleach treating, then curing leftover dry rock from the tank

Bleaching rock is a very outdated, outmoded and dangerous process.  (bleach + organics = 🤮)   What made you decide to bleach this rock?

 

6 hours ago, DyloHeath said:

leathers make me a little nervous

???

[DyloHeath]

On 6/11/2020 at 2:28 PM, mcarroll said:

Quote

 

Doesn't look too bad in the photos.  But are those of when the coral was new, or are they photos of the "damage" in question?  (We'd like to see a comparison if possible.)

 

Unless you can see it losing polyps, it might be just fine.  It'll start looking raggedy (not just bleached) if it's losing polyps.

 

Not losing polyps, polyps are going pale is the better description.

Quote

 

We have such lame abbreviations in this hobby.  😉

 

Call it a "birds nest" (its common name) if you can't call it a Pocillopora (its scientific name).

 

Birds nets? Thought this Pocillopora was "Cauliflower" or (lace, cluster, brush). But I can use the longer name lol

Quote

 

Not saying this is THE problem, but it pays to look first at what was most recently changed about the tank when you are troubleshooting.

 

I assume you would have mentioned that you have and use a light meter if you had and used one.  😉 

 

Get and use a light meter in the future when you're setting up or otherwise changing the lighting on your corals.  $7-$20 will get you a decent entry-level lux meter like I have.  You'll no longer have to guess about the amount of light you're putting into the tank.  👍

 

Cutting your light by 50% from current levels until you have this sorted out would be my recommendation if you really suspect the lights....but keep reading.

 

You got a entry level meter for $7-$20? I haven't seen anything close to that in Australia. But that would be amazing if I could find something that affordable. I see a lot of them starting at $250 here. I would love to be able to read the par myself. I will look into this.

 

Quote

That's is fine.  Not high, and not causing this.  (Phosphates are one of the antidotes for this, for what it's worth.)

Right, gotcha.

 

Quote

 

What you're seeing is the coral bleaching, which can be followed by loss of damaged tissue....which, if that happens, is referred to variously as "RTN" or "STN"...meaning either rapid or sudden tissue necrosis.

 

I'm still not sure that's what's happening in your case, or if you're just seeing pale polyps.  

 

Pale polyps at the base of a coral is not the same thing as bleaching, and is generally nothing to worry about.  But then you'll find in this hobby that someone is worrying about everything tho...some folks even worry about the shadows in their tanks.  (Not entirely relevant, but fun: "The most dangerous kind of person... is one who is afraid of his own shadow." – Philip K. Dick, A Scanner Darkly)

 

Okay thats good to know (RTN or STN). With this scenario the polyps are turning pale compared to loss of damaged tissue.

Need to watch out for those shadows!

Quote

I would be suspicious of this being a cause if there does turn out to be an issue at work.

Hmm maybe, I know a lot of the LFS in my area use revive and aren't seeing any problems. I will keep notes on this.

 

 

Quote

How old is this tank that it should need a good cleaning?  Unless it is OOOLLLDDD then it sounds like you need better flow if it already needs a good cleaning.

This tank is more like 6 months old but is using everything from my previous tank (which cracked) that was 10 months old.

 

Quote

How do you figure that you were over feeding?

Maybe over feeding isn't the right sentence to be using. But there were a lot of left over pellets and reef roids floating along the sand and around the tank. I turn off all the flow. I find with mysis the fish leaves nothing to float down. I was more talking about over feeding the corals, I was giving reef roids every second day. Now just 2x a week.

 

Quote

As a rule of thumb, feed as much as your animals can eat within 5 minutes.  Feed multiple times a day if more food is needed.

My dottyback has big stomach, thats for sure. I will do this.

Quote

Bleaching rock is a very outdated, outmoded and dangerous process.  (bleach + organics = 🤮)   What made you decide to bleach this rock?

It's not that dangerous if you have sufficient room away from the main house, people, animals ,etc. I've bleached dry rock in the past and its a great way to speed up the curing process. A quick way to remove leftover organics. Then i bathe the rock is RO water with dechlorinator for a little while. I decided to bleach this rock because it had a tonne of leftover organics throughout the rock (I wanted to speed up the process)

???

Wow I messed up the editing of this reply, Sorry about that.

[mcarroll]

Looks like AU$20-$30:  https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=lux+meter&_sacat=0&_sop=15

 

(And current US prices look to be more like $10-$20 anyway...more than they were last time I was looking.)

 

Still cheap in my book.  👍

 

How would you describe the flow in the tank currently?  Looks like it might have dead spots due to having a single flow pattern running all the time.  

 

Just like a lightbulb in front of you casts a shadow behind you, every hard obstacle in the path of a pump causes a "flow shadow" behind it and particulates will naturally settle there.  Similar happens for depressions and gaps in your rock.  There are a few articles in the Flow section of my blog that talk about these issues.  I'm gonna post a related vid at the bottom too.

 

Having alternating flow like the tides (a few hours on one direction followed by a few hours in the other direction) is an easy way to resolve this to a very satisfactory level.  Unfortunately most programmable pumps don't offer a mode like this.  You can do it with basic flow pumps and appliance timers, and Tunze's controllers do it.  Might be some others, but AFAIK none of the more common ones do. (Correct me if wrong!). Otherwise, having at least two flow sources and LOTS of flow is the only tool in the belt so to speak.  You can try getting a more optimal placement of your current pump, but that just creates different flow shadows, it doesn't really eliminate them like "tidal" flows would.

 

Leave flow ON during feeding, otherwise gravity takes food straight to the bottom, as you stated.  Corals and fish are all more or less optimized for grabbing food from flowing water anyway.  Also, using something like reef roids is easy to overdo...in fact I probably wouldn't use it at all on a regular basis...but using some is a NICE way to allow you to "visualize" the actual flow in your tank by seeing how fast and where the particles flow.  It cold let you see some opportunities for tweaking if you haven't already been down this road.  But having food sitting all over the bottom can only come from WAY over-dosing the food OR from a basic lack of flow.  

 

Flow isn't identical to GPH, btw.  Here we're interested in water velocity – that's what keeps particles afloat against gravity.  Most pumps these days seem to emulate the Hydor Korellia style of flow that is VERY soft (ie Vortech, et al)...meaning very low velocity.  Tunze's classic ball-shaped Nanostream (and larger Streams) pumps really deliver on water velocity...but I honestly can't say what style yours are to make a comparison as I haven't seen them before.

 

 (Short story:  One time I changed out a soft-flow pump in a tank for a pump that could generate decent velocity.  The quantity of crap that was near-instantly lifted out of the sand and from the rocks was literally astounding, even though I was expecting it to rock his tank.  The owner and I were standing next to each other watching the tank like: 😮😮 )

 

 

6 hours ago, DyloHeath said:

A quick way to remove leftover organics.

You kinda baited me on this:  Nothing Good Happens Fast In A Reef Tank  😉 😇

 

But seriously too!  

 

Quick is also relative.  

 

I know it's after the fact now, but for fun, here are alternatives I would try first, if I did anything at all:

• a few minutes with a pressure washer
• a scrub brush and bucket of salt water
• a scavenger mob could be a MUCH more friendly and FUN option (hermits and nassarius)

Combine all three!  No potential bio-hazard.  Still quick...on the order of minutes to hours.  Take a day or two if you want though...hermit mobs are fun to watch!!  No post-processing required either before it goes into the reef....in fact you can do the scavenger mob in the display and then pretty easily trap out all the extra scavengers at the end!

 

Just some thoughts.  👍

 

* Here's one good article in that Flow section I mentioned earlier just to start you off:  Function of Funnel-Shaped Coral Growth in a High-Sedimentation Environment

* Here's the vid I promised earlier...goes well with that article: