Nano reef setup?

[Clown79]

4 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

I'm not sure about that for pests in general.  I've seen so many tanks have Aiptasia, Mejano, Flatworms, all kinds of nuisance algae, it's just something hobbyists live with.  Any of those might be considered more of a bigger issue than let's say bristle worms, but even then, hobbyists don't usually break down their tanks.  Instead, they'll do things like huge water changes and dump tons of chemicals and end up causing more harm themselves and killing off the good livestock.

Most hobbyists don't consider bristle worms an issue, when they come in plague proportions it's an issue and when you have that many if them, there is a bigger problem at hand.

[Tired]

Aiptasia and other pest anemones can be spot-killed, or large infestations taken out with berghia. Most flatworms are actually harmless (unless the tank is overfed), and the ones that aren't can be killed off by methods that don't harm the other livestock, if done right. Nuisance algaes are best dealt with by allowing other algaes to overtake them, manually removing some algae, and potentially adding more algae-eaters. Also, surges of nuisance algaes are normal in new tanks and go away on their own. The only real exception to the "biodiversity, removal, and time" algae treatment is bryopsis, which is easily killed off with a fungal medication that won't harm anything else. 

 

Bristleworms are helpful detritivores. If you have a massive overpopulation of them, you've been massively overfeeding your tank. If you have a few large ones, no problem. The ones that actually eat corals and other desirable things are a different species than the common, harmless pink ones, and those are fairly rare. 

 

Besides that, the best way to get a stable tank is with the biodiversity that you get on live rock. With dry rock, you'll have to get that elsewhere, on purpose, and it will be a considerable trouble to do so. Sterile environments don't work for raising life, and dry rock is often used in a mistaken attempt at a sterile, nutrient-free environment. Which is prime territory for the inevitable nuisance algaes to go ham, with no competition, and will starve your corals out. 

[Seadragon]

9 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Most hobbyists don't consider bristle worms an issue, when they come in plague proportions it's an issue and when you have that many if them, there is a bigger problem at hand.

 

Once you have something you don't want, it can be difficult to get rid of it.  In one of my first freshwater tanks, the moment I got some pest pond snails on with some java moss, that eventually covered the tank and glass and made the experience unappealing.  There wasn't much left to do than to take down the tank.  Same goes with Black Beard Algae, just a horrible thing to get.

 

For saltwater, I've experienced Cotton Candy algae, something I would never wish upon my worst enemy.  I got it under control, but I doubt it'll ever be gone.  The thing with bristle worms, no one wants a thousand of them squirming around or huge ones that can cause damage.  And no one that I know wants to try to get a huge one out of their tank.  All pests can help "clean", but there are plenty of other options out there that look more appealing to the eye.

[Seadragon]

4 minutes ago, Tired said:

Aiptasia and other pest anemones can be spot-killed, or large infestations taken out with berghia. Most flatworms are actually harmless (unless the tank is overfed), and the ones that aren't can be killed off by methods that don't harm the other livestock, if done right. Nuisance algaes are best dealt with by allowing other algaes to overtake them, manually removing some algae, and potentially adding more algae-eaters. Also, surges of nuisance algaes are normal in new tanks and go away on their own. The only real exception to the "biodiversity, removal, and time" algae treatment is bryopsis, which is easily killed off with a fungal medication that won't harm anything else. 

 

Bristleworms are helpful detritivores. If you have a massive overpopulation of them, you've been massively overfeeding your tank. If you have a few large ones, no problem. The ones that actually eat corals and other desirable things are a different species than the common, harmless pink ones, and those are fairly rare. 

 

Besides that, the best way to get a stable tank is with the biodiversity that you get on live rock. With dry rock, you'll have to get that elsewhere, on purpose, and it will be a considerable trouble to do so. Sterile environments don't work for raising life, and dry rock is often used in a mistaken attempt at a sterile, nutrient-free environment. Which is prime territory for the inevitable nuisance algaes to go ham, with no competition, and will starve your corals out. 

 

The moment you add corals to your tank along with their frag plugs, you will start introducing all kinds of biodiversity.  I've seen so many damn things come out of corals and their plugs, I didn't need some live rock to do it for me.  Fortunately, I was able to kill anything that may be too harmful, and kept the hitchhikers that weren't as bad.  And things like Tisbe Copepods can be purchased separately.

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Seadragon said:

Here's just one site that talks about the dangers of bristle worms...

 

https://reefbuilders.com/2007/06/09/bristle-worm-removal-from-saltwater-aquariums/#

"Bristle worms can be, and usually, are a real problem for reef hobbyists. Indeed, they create havoc in the aquarium, especially when they grow to larger sizes. Bristle worms grow quickly! Real quickly! They feed on anything they can find in the tank and grow to sizes that amaze most hobbyists. This process does not take long either.

 

Whereas small bristle worms may look really harmless, larger specimens that have grown to sizes of 24 inches or more in length are quite impressive and can cause serious damage. Remember too that the size you see is not necessarily the size of the worm. It may be retracted and look short and thick, but it can stretch itself to a real long size and be very thin. In either case it is a voracious eater."

 

And there's a ton of other articles out there.  Just not for me.

Holy moly thanks for the PERFECT bad example!!  Hyperbole, FUD and plain-jane bull*** all in one quote.

 

I'll assume that it says what you quoted and leave that link unclicked.....don't want to encourage more like that.

 

Total B.S...and perfect example of the cr** that seems to pass for information these days.   

 

Nerdy Aside

Data is not information.

 

A 24" worm is impressive (click bait, if you will), but it's only one piece of data. 

 

Nothing more than a sensational anecdote. 

 

Data. 

 

An outlier at that.

 

When you're making information from data, some data inevitably gets thrown in the trash because it is bad data. 

 

This can happen to data for a variety of reasons, but it always has to do with the fact that the information would either be worth less or nothing at all with that data present.

 

This story represents data that would go into the trash when making information about bristleworms for aquarium hobbyists.

 

Funny Analogy

Taking that quote at face value and as representative of bristleworms is like talking about Andre the Giant...

...like he's a good reason to be afraid of all humans. 

 

A) he's not mean like he looks...he's friendly like this!  (Or was....RIP.)

B) 24" long worms are f**** rare.  Like hitting all seven numbers on The Unlucky Lottery.  Absurd example!!!  But good click bait.  I'm sure you can run 24" bristleworm articles 3-4 times a year on a blog and generate some excellent traffic.  🙄

 

A more sensible post to make on bristleworms would be something like this:

 

"Millions of tanks were kept cleaner today thanks to untold numbers of bristleworms.  The owners of 90% of those tank don't even know the worms are there.  Thanks, bristleworms!"

 

...or...

 

"Millions of tanks were bathed in a free supply of zooplankton today thanks to untold numbers of bristleworms.  The owners of 90% of those tank don't even know the worms are there.  Thanks bristleworms."

 

...or, more seriously, this...

 

https://www.chesapeakebay.net/S=0/fieldguide/critter/bristle_worms

 

Bristleworms help to make a tank healthier and more stable.  It's that simple.  Anything else you've read about them is FUD.

 

Singling things like bristleworms or hair algae out and calling them "pests" is more of a control issue than anything else and when we do that is cuts you/us off from learning anything real about them, FYI.

 

Both hair algae and bristleworms (just for example) are totally reef-compatible and support a healthier, more stable reef ecosystem.

 

When they are out of control, it's because something is wrong with your system, not because they are a "pest".

 

That's true in the wild, and in our tanks.

 

Everything on a reef is wiggly or swimmy or slithery or slimy BTW.  Sometimes all of those at once. 

 

That kinda stuff can't be a basis for hating on something good in the reef and then just giving it the hand.

 

You're supposed to be a GOOD friend to your reef!

 

(Don't go trying to pet your bristleworms tho....that would be taking the friend thing too far!  LOL)

[Seadragon]

It's weird that something so beneficial becomes a big problem when they overpopulate or grows too big and becomes harmful.  Some people love spending Time & Money trying to get rid of them once it reaches that point.  So many Bristle Worm traps for sale.

 

I love Tisbe Copepods.  They seem a million times more beneficial than a bristle worm ever could be.  They keep the tank clean and are live food for the fish.  If they overpopulate, it's a blessing, not a curse.  And I've never seen a Tisbe Copepod trap for sale.

 

[Tamberav]

Some of my rock is 6? 7? 10? Years old. I have had bristle worms since day one and they are harmful to nothing.

 

Traps being for sale are for fireworms if anything or just to sell something based on fear or grossness.

 

There is literally a tank that has been running for 47 years and I don't see his pipefish getting ate by worms.

 

They are harmless scavengers who's population will be controlled by available food supply.

 

Pods are good scavangers but not a replacement just like worms are not a replacement for pods.

 

Also worth noting is there are coral eating pods that will decimate picos where there are no good fish to control them. A pod trap wouldn't be a terrible idea 😉

[mcarroll]

Pods are not a replacement for bristleworms.  Nor vice versa.  (Just noticed this phrase is a repeat of something @tamberav just posted....not changing it cuz it was not a copy....just serendipity of being on the same wavelength!!)

 

Live rock is not pods plus bristleworms either.....that's only 2 out of a bazillion critters that go together in this live rock ecosystem whether we like 'em or not, and all bazillion have a role to play in the stability of the ecosystem.

 

Check this out:

The Nature and Consequences of Indirect Effects in Ecological Communities

 

There are a few comments or quotes from the article on my blog entry to give you the idea of the focus, but click through to the PDF and read the whole article.

 

Yeah you can probably take out a few species without ruining the whole ecosystem. 

 

But do you know which species are really unnecessary?  No. 

 

So you're playing some kind of reefy Russian roulette in this situation. 🔫

 

The point (of live rock and of the article) is kinda the more the merrier, not that one particular member of the ecosystem is some kind of hero (or villain) to the rest.

 

All I'm suggesting is to consider having a more relaxed attitude toward these things, not that you have to be a fan.  😉 

 

The tank is not there "only" for the pods the coral and the fish any more than it's "only" there for you.

 

It's there for ALL of the things we're talking about!  😎

 

Bristleworms are cool. 

 

BTW, order some bristleworms if you don't have any!

 

Indo-Pacific Sea Farms sells them:

• http://ipsf.com/reefworms.html

 

As does Sustainable Aquatics:

• https://sustainableaquatics.com/feeds/sa-marine-polychaetes-live-marine-bristleworms/
• Eurythoe complanata - SA Marine Polychaetes Bristle Worms, 15oz Bottle

 

Here's IPSF's blurb on the topic:

Quote

Most experienced reefkeepers strongly believe in the beneficial effects of bristle worms on the sand bed. We hold the view that bristle worms and other sand bed scavengers are vitally important components of reef ecosystems, both captive and wild. Our Baby Bristle Worms package comes with 6 fine young specimens, all about 0.5 - 1.0 inches in length. Our clams and corals are grown in commercial mariculture tanks in close proximity with literally thousands of happily breeding bristleworms. Simply put, bristleworms are to reef tanks what earthworms are to gardens. Bristle worms constantly stir the reef tank sand bed and help keep it aerobic. They consume uneaten fish food and fish waste, preventing dead and decaying organic matter from accumulating on top of the sand bed. Baby Bristle Worms will mature rapidly and reproduce to levels that are consistent with the available resources (food and space) in your reef tank. 100% Captive-Bred.

 

And here's part of SA's blurb:

Quote

SA’s Marine Polychaetes: Eurythoe complanata is a marine polychaete worm commonly known as the “Bristleworm,” names for the numerous setae, or bristles, that cover the sides of their bodies. They are an important part of both captive and wild reef systems. Bristleworms live in the substrate and within rocks and emerge at night to forage for food. They can reproduce sexually for by fragmentation.

SA’s Advantage:   SA’s Marine Polychaetes are maintained in clean systems with calcareous substrate. They are fed a high-quality diet of SA’s Hatchery Diet and frozen feeds, ensuring that you are getting the healthiest worms available.

Use: SA’s Marine Polychaetes can be added to the aquarium, where a population can establish and reproduce to provide the aquarium with a continuous supply of nutritious food and provide a service as part of the  “Clean-Up Crew.” At SA, we use bristleworms in the broodstock aquariums, where they stir the sand and provide the occasional treat for hungry fishes. They feed on uneaten fish food, fish wastes, algae, and detritus. SA’s Marine Polychaetes, along with SA’s Amphipods, are a great way to cycle a new aquarium in lieu of fish

 

ARC Reef doesn't appear to sell them (yet) but they have a non-hysterical/level-headed page dedicated to a few worms, including good pictures:

https://arcreef.com/bristle-worms/bristle-worms-fireworms/

[mcarroll]

(Sorry for the detour @Jens_Reef, but I hope the sights were at least interesting!! 😁)

[Seadragon]

8 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Traps being for sale are for fireworms if anything

 

You're right.  I can't believe Amazon has it all wrong.  I searched for Fire Worm trap on Amazon and nothing came up. 😞

But, the moment I searched for Bristle Worm trap, BAM!  Can't believe it was Amazon's Choice.

 

 

 

It's sad that so many misinformed hobbyists are removing and killing their cute little bristle worms.

 

    

 

 

Who wouldn't want a ton of those in their tank?  I'm sure when they get big, they look even cuter! 😉

 

 

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

6 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

You're right.  I can't believe Amazon has it all wrong.  I searched for Fire Worm trap on Amazon and nothing came up. 😞

But, the moment I searched for Bristle Worm trap, BAM!  Can't believe it was Amazon's Choice.

 

 

 

It's sad that so many misinformed hobbyists are removing and killing their cute little bristle worms.

 

    

 

 

Who wouldn't want a ton of those in their tank?  I'm sure when they get big, they look even cuter! 😄

 

just wait till your finger is covered in bristles 🙂

[Ratvan]

4 minutes ago, IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut said:

just wait till your finger is covered in bristles 🙂

Gaffa tape and pull with the bristles 👍

[Seadragon]

But, what do you do when your fish have bristles in them? 😞

 

 

I guess they become bristle worm food eventually.  Gotta keep those cute little buggers living and populating somehow.

[IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut]

Just now, Seadragon said:

But, what do you do when your fish have bristles in them? 😞

 

 

I guess they become bristle worm food eventually.  Gotta keep those cute little buggers living and populating somehow.

from my own experience, whenever a fish has had bristles, it's been ill. the fish shouldn't be laying on the ground in reach. 

I would think they just kind of expel themselves though?

[Seadragon]

9 minutes ago, IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut said:

from my own experience, whenever a fish has had bristles, it's been ill. the fish shouldn't be laying on the ground in reach. 

I would think they just kind of expel themselves though?

 

Could be.  I know sometimes when an animal has a bullet in their flesh, they just go on living with the pain.  Maybe it's the same with the bristles?  The fish just endure the pain every day... thank god though for bristle worms.  Makes me just want to go to those websites @mcarroll mentioned and buy a ton for my tanks since I don't have any yet. 😞

[Seadragon]

19 minutes ago, IHaveADegreeInMarineBioBut said:

the fish shouldn't be laying on the ground in reach. 

 

At night, sometimes I see my clownfish sleeping on the sand.  I see my Yellow Watchman Goby rush back into his little den as the "sun sets".  And my blenny sleeps in the many caves and holes in the rockwork.  I bet if I had a hundred or so bristle worms in my little 10 gallon tank, that tiny confined glass cube, eventually one of these fish will get bristles on them.  But, Bristle Worms are beneficial after all so maybe it's worth it.

[Tamberav]

49 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

 

You're right.  I can't believe Amazon has it all wrong.  I searched for Fire Worm trap on Amazon and nothing came up. 😞

But, the moment I searched for Bristle Worm trap, BAM!  Can't believe it was Amazon's Choice.

 

 

 

It's sad that so many misinformed hobbyists are removing and killing their cute little bristle worms.

 

    

 

 

Who wouldn't want a ton of those in their tank?  I'm sure when they get big, they look even cuter! 😉

 

 

A trap doesn't mean they are harmful and being ugly doesn't mean they are harmful. 

 

40 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

But, what do you do when your fish have bristles in them? 😞

 

 

I guess they become bristle worm food eventually.  Gotta keep those cute little buggers living and populating somehow.

 

Fear mongering.

[Seadragon]

22 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

A trap doesn't mean they are harmful and being ugly doesn't mean they are harmful. 

The vast majority agree that too many or too large is an issue.  And they’re not that easy to remove unless you buy traps (and you’ll never get them all).

Just because they are OK when there’s only a few and are still small doesn’t make them a smart choice for everyone in the long run.

[Tamberav]

20 minutes ago, Seadragon said:

The vast majority agree that too many or too large is an issue.  And they’re not that easy to remove unless you buy traps (and you’ll never get them all).

Just because they are OK when there’s only a few and are still small doesn’t make them a smart choice for everyone in the long run.

Their numbers are regulated by food supply. If a person has a very large number of them, they have a nutrient problem. They may not even know they have a nutrient problem as the worms are doing them a service by cleaning it up. 

 

If you want to remove them because they are ugly, that is fine and your own choice and people do based on that alone. My husband hates them too but he has a phobia of snakes/worms and such.

 

 

 

[Seadragon]

11 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Their numbers are regulated by food supply. If a person has a very large number of them, they have a nutrient problem. They may not even know they have a nutrient problem as the worms are doing them a service by cleaning it up. 

 

If you want to remove them because they are ugly, that is fine and your own choice and people do based on that alone. My husband hates them too but he has a phobia of snakes/worms and such.

 

 

 

I don’t know if you ever had pest pond snails in a freshwater aquarium before, but once those tiny pests reach the thousands, even after trying to starve them out (which can’t be done easily with other inhabitants such as shrimp in the tank since you don’t want to kill those off), the only real option is to start over.

 

I can imagine if the bristle worms can breed just as quickly and are very tiny, since the fish and invertebrates are being fed, it wouldn’t deter their numbers that much especially because of all the things they may consume.  It’s easy to say to not feed them much, but in reality it doesn’t seem to work out that way.  That is why I believe people turn to traps in the end.

[Jens_Reef]

7 hours ago, mcarroll said:

(Sorry for the detour @Jens_Reef, but I hope the sights were at least interesting!! 😁)

No problem, I learned a lot about bristle worms because of this. 😅

 

Thank you everyone for the useful information.

I am happy to say that my AI Prime 16HD came in today!

Now it is time to decide if I go whit the 20 gallon cube of the 30.2 🤯

[Tamberav]

1 minute ago, Seadragon said:

I don’t know if you ever had pest pond snails in a freshwater aquarium before, but once those tiny pests reach the thousands, even after trying to starve them out (which can’t be done easily with other inhabitants such as shrimp in the tank since you don’t want to kill those off), the only real option is to start over.

 

I can imagine if the bristle worms can breed just as quickly and are very tiny, since the fish and invertebrates are being fed, it wouldn’t deter their numbers that much especially because of all the things they may consume.  It’s easy to say to not feed them much, but in reality it doesn’t seem to work out that way.  That is why I believe people turn to traps in the end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

A quick survey indicated that pond snails are actually somewhat like bristleworms -- free cleanup crew!

Example: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/88-shrimp-other-invertebrates/170847-pond-snails.html

 

Apparently they are pure scavengers and their population follows the available food sources. 

 

In a tank, that's mostly fish food.  Too much feeding = too many snails. 

 

They apparently don't eat plants under normal circumstances, and it appears that lots of folks with lots of plants LIKE to have them.

 

If you blow up their population (even if it's on accident) with excessive food, then you end up breaking down their normal behaviors and (when the food source dries up) inducing a starvation event -- snail famine.

 

Starving organisms can probably be counted on to deviate from their ordinary "model behavior" in order to survive....and they're in a box, so they can't simply migrate.

 

I used to hear similar bad things about Malaysian trumpet snails when I had my planted tank many moons ago, but I enjoyed having them in my tank.  If they were doing anything other than good I couldn't tell.

 

Intersting: Predator regime influences innate anti‐predator behaviour in the freshwater gastropod Lymnaea stagnalis (google scholar for a PDF of the article.....I found one)  Apparently there's a chemical combo that can make (at least some) pond snails crawl out of the water -- that would make them easy to harvest!  They use it for behavior experiments, so it works apparently without even hurting the snails.  I don't know anything about what they used, so I'd have to doubt it's something we would have access to, but maybe there's a way to simulate it in another way, or even implement the proper "regime of predators" they talk about to cause it naturally.

 

Also interesting: Determinants of macrophyte palatability to the pond snail Lymnaea stagnalis (Google for PDF.....I found one)  This seems to address the question of whether these snails eat plants, but it also begs the question as to which "pond snail" you actually have in your tank.   There appear to be numerous species that look virtually identical, including the Giant Pond Snail that I ran my search on (L stagnalis) but the G.P.S. is unlikely to be the actual species in too many peoples' tanks.  Nevertheless, here's a good quote from the article that does refer to the class of snails in general:

Quote

Most freshwater gastropod species consume mainly benthic algae and detritus and have therefore no direct effect on the structure of macrophyte communities (Reavell, 1980; Bro¨nmark, 1989, 1990). However, large species such as L. stagnalis readily consume macrophytes (Gaevskaya, 1969; Reavell, 1980). Lymnaea stagnalis has been shown to consume more than 30 macrophyte species among 15 families (Fro¨mming, 1956; Gaevskaya, 1969; Smits, 1994) and can, therefore, be considered a generalist grazer.

So maybe it's true that generalizing about "pond snails" might just be about as productive as generalizing about green algae or dino's.  (I.e. NOT productive)

 

Sun Tzu said it like 2500 years ago:  Know your enemy!!  Or how he put it...

Quote

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

(Emphasis mine: most folks who have a "tank enemy" fit into the last two categories.  Newbs, naturally enough, generally fall into that last category.)

[Seadragon]

It’s kind of like, until you experienced it, you’ll never know what it’s really like.  If I never did, I’d just throw logic at it and say “starve them” to death.  But, I think those pest snails can survive extreme conditions that most regular organisms (ones you pay for) cannot.

 

Black Beard Algae being very similar and maybe even more ruthless.  Anyone that experiences that, especially when it gets out of control, knows what I speak of.

 

I’ve read many of the comments of bristle worms exploding in population and it just gives me nightmares of the 2 things I mentioned prior.  And if I ever did see a Giant one in my tank, I really don’t want to invest the time, money, and energy trying to remove it.  Just something I don’t want to deal with.

[Couesfanatic]

On 12/24/2019 at 1:46 PM, Seadragon said:

It’s kind of like, until you experienced it, you’ll never know what it’s really like.  If I never did, I’d just throw logic at it and say “starve them” to death.  But, I think those pest snails can survive extreme conditions that most regular organisms (ones you pay for) cannot.

 

Black Beard Algae being very similar and maybe even more ruthless.  Anyone that experiences that, especially when it gets out of control, knows what I speak of.

 

I’ve read many of the comments of bristle worms exploding in population and it just gives me nightmares of the 2 things I mentioned prior.  And if I ever did see a Giant one in my tank, I really don’t want to invest the time, money, and energy trying to remove it.  Just something I don’t want to deal with.

Pond snails and BBA really arn't at all that bad. I have both right now. I have had them for years. They follow the levels of overfeeding your tank. More overfeeding=more snails. BBA is more complicated and is argued to be related to CO2 levels and detritus/dirty tanks. BBA is easily killed with Excel or hydrogen peroxide. Trim the plants, clean equipment and BBA goes away. No need to restart the entire tank. I'm new to this salt thing but it seems bristleworms are the same type of thing.