Nitrates High!!

[Abhijit]

Hi,

 

A little history first. My tank is fully cycled, has gone through the diatom bloom and is currently stocked with a blue damsel that i feed sparingly once a day. 

I do 20% water changes every week. I do not have a skimmer. 

I'm looking to add my first corals, but my nitrates just won't go down. Ammonia is 0, Nitrites are 0, but my Nitrates remain at a constant 20-30ppm. I havent measured my PO4 yet. Now i understand more water changes would kind of help lower my nitrates, but i watched a few videos and understood that it can't be my primary export method. I will never be able to compete with nitrates and get them to a level i want them at, just with water changes. 

This is primarily going to be a SPS dominated reef with few LPS i absolutely love and some zoas, so i am aiming at ❤️ Nitrates and <0.03 PO4. 

I have an integrated sump that has filter floss and biomedia and a return pump at the moment. I added Seachem De*Nitrate a few days back and that has helped to an extent. 

Will a skimmer improve my situation? I have heard very good things about Aquaforest Probiotic Salt and how it helps reduce NO3 & PO4. I also explored vodka dosing & NO3PO4X. 

All these methods, unfortunately, need a skimmer. 

I could also have a skimmer and create a small refugium with chaetomorpha. But im not sure such small quantity of chaetomorpha will actually help. (It's basically a 6" X 6" sump chamber)

I also thought of an Algae reactor or even a biopellet reactor. 

All this is very confusing, I'm not sure what i should be doing and I'm at my wits end deciding on what method i should go with. 

 

Would love to hear some thoughts. Any advise

you fine folks can give, would be a huge help. 

 

TIA! 

 

[Clown79]

You don't need all the things you have listed, even with all of it, you still may have issues because the route of the problem wasn't corrected.

 

Have you considered starting a chaeto fuge?

 

The first thing is determining why your nitrates are so high and continue to be high.

 

Think of these

 

- What water are you using

- what filter media is used and how is it maintained

 

- what are you feeding

- do you vacuum your sand/Turkey baste the rocks

 

- after the cycle, how large of a waterchange did you do and what were the nitrate levels after that.

 

 

[Tamberav]

Did you do your first large water change after the cycle? like 50%? It is a nano so it should be easy to do. Nitrates are generally high after the initial cycle because the bacteria that process Nitrate are the slowest to reproduce. This is especially true if you started with dry rock.

 

I am not sure what you mean about water changes not keeping Nitrates down, lots of people use just water changes on nano's to export nutrients. It just depends on your bioload if you need more. Large tanks would not be able to do this but small ones have that benefit. The idea is to siphon the sand bed and use a turkey baster to blast crud off the rocks and suck out as much as you can, removing the debris before it becomes excess nutrients. 

 

If you chase 0 Nitrates and PO4 <0.03 you are going to have pale SPS and potentially dino. SPS needs some nutrients to grow and color. 

[Abhijit]

9 hours ago, Clown79 said:

You don't need all the things you have listed, even with all of it, you still may have issues because the route of the problem wasn't corrected.

 

Have you considered starting a chaeto fuge?

 

The first thing is determining why your nitrates are so high and continue to be high.

 

Think of these

 

- What water are you using

- what filter media is used and how is it maintained

 

- what are you feeding

- do you vacuum your sand/Turkey baste the rocks

 

- after the cycle, how large of a waterchange did you do and what were the nitrate levels after that.

 

 

@Clown79 I was considering starting a cheto fuge, but the space i have is limited, like 6X6inches. Would cheto be beneficial in such a small space? 

 

I'm using distilled water. 0 nitrates at source. Also the company that makes the water claims that it is absolutely pure without any elements. 

 

I'm using Sera Siporax & Seachem De*Nitrate as filter media. Feeding Marine S pellets to the damsel. 

 

I do vaccum my sand bed when i do water changes, but no, i don't Turkey baste the rocks!! I need to try doing that and see how it goes. 

 

I didn't do a huge water change after the cycle. I changed about 35-40%. I guess I should've done more. 

[Abhijit]

8 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Did you do your first large water change after the cycle? like 50%? It is a nano so it should be easy to do. Nitrates are generally high after the initial cycle because the bacteria that process Nitrate are the slowest to reproduce. This is especially true if you started with dry rock.

 

I am not sure what you mean about water changes not keeping Nitrates down, lots of people use just water changes on nano's to export nutrients. It just depends on your bioload if you need more. Large tanks would not be able to do this but small ones have that benefit. The idea is to siphon the sand bed and use a turkey baster to blast crud off the rocks and suck out as much as you can, removing the debris before it becomes excess nutrients. 

 

If you chase 0 Nitrates and PO4 <0.03 you are going to have pale SPS and potentially dino. SPS needs some nutrients to grow and color. 

@Tamberav I did a 35-40% WC after the cycle. And yes, i used dry rock. 

 

I do vaccum my sand bed, but no, i dont Turkey baste the rocks. I should start doing that. 

 

Should i start doing more water changes? Maybe 20% twice a week would help? Need to try that out. 

 

I am aiming for about 5ppm Nitrates and 0.03ppm PO4. Too less for SPS? What numbers should be optimal for SPS and LPS?

 

[Tamberav]

1 minute ago, Abhijit said:

@Tamberav I did a 35-40% WC after the cycle. And yes, i used dry rock. 

 

I do vaccum my sand bed, but no, i dont Turkey baste the rocks. I should start doing that. 

 

Should i start doing more water changes? Maybe 20% twice a week would help? Need to try that out. 

 

I am aiming for about 5ppm Nitrates and 0.03ppm PO4. Too less for SPS? What numbers should be optimal for SPS and LPS?

 

 

That should be fine. I had to do more frequent water changes until my rock matured.... now I struggle to keep nutrients in the tank 🙄

[Abhijit]

Just now, Tamberav said:

 

That should be fine. I had to do more frequent water changes until my rock matured.... now I struggle to keep nutrients in the tank 🙄

@Tamberav Gotcha! Also, when would be a good time to add my first coral? I was thinking of a hammer or couple of zoa frags. 

 

I guess I should first fix my NO3 & PO4 right?

[Tamberav]

1 minute ago, Abhijit said:

@Tamberav Gotcha! Also, when would be a good time to add my first coral? I was thinking of a hammer or couple of zoa frags. 

 

I guess I should first fix my NO3 & PO4 right?

Those types will do fine at higher NO3 and PO4... if I let my 25g go a few months without changes mine creeps into the 20-30's nitrate and 0.1 PO4 or some such and the zoas just grow faster. 

 

The main thing about keeping NO3 and PO4 down with dry rock is right now... there is a lot of space for pest algae to grow. It has a harder time growing on mature rock with coralline algae, micro-algae etc... 

 

Also since you are doing SPS, SPS grow better/faster on coralline then on bare rock. Just worth noting. 

[Abhijit]

11 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Those types will do fine at higher NO3 and PO4... if I let my 25g go a few months without changes mine creeps into the 20-30's nitrate and 0.1 PO4 or some such and the zoas just grow faster. 

 

The main thing about keeping NO3 and PO4 down with dry rock is right now... there is a lot of space for pest algae to grow. It has a harder time growing on mature rock with coralline algae, micro-algae etc... 

 

Also since you are doing SPS, SPS grow better/faster on coralline then on bare rock. Just worth noting. 

I'm keeping my lights to a minimum, maybe 2 hours a day, so i don't have any algae issues yet. I had a diatom bloom, but i vaccumed that out and it hasn't returned since. 

 

I won't even dream of adding SPS right now. I was thinking of some zoa frags and some LPS.. Hammers, Acans, Torches and such. 

 

What I gather about Coraline is that i need to add some trace of coraline first in order to have coraline grow. Will do that soon enough. 

 

I suppose the first step is to test my parameters. Ca,Mg,PO4 and such. 

[Tired]

You could get some decorative macroalgaes to help suck that up. I like my fire fern. Reefcleaners has a nice assortment at great prices. 

 

Get your lights up. You want algae! The more algae types you have, the less space and nutrients are available for pest algaes to show up. You want biodiversity, including diversity of algaes. I also rather suspect that light schedule is bad for your damsel's internal clock.

[Abhijit]

1 hour ago, Tired said:

You could get some decorative macroalgaes to help suck that up. I like my fire fern. Reefcleaners has a nice assortment at great prices. 

 

Get your lights up. You want algae! The more algae types you have, the less space and nutrients are available for pest algaes to show up. You want biodiversity, including diversity of algaes. I also rather suspect that light schedule is bad for your damsel's internal clock.

@Tired Makes sense. I will up my lighting schedule to 6 hours. 

 

Also, I'm in India. Reef Cleaners don't operate here. Should i put in some chaetomorpha in the back chamber and see how it does? 

[Tired]

Chaeto is a good choice, yes. Heck, if you don't mind the look, you can put it in the display. Some critters will like to hide in it, especially pods.

[Abhijit]

10 minutes ago, Tired said:

Chaeto is a good choice, yes. Heck, if you don't mind the look, you can put it in the display. Some critters will like to hide in it, especially pods.

@Tired Well no, i wouldn't want it floating around in my display, but i have a chamber in my sump that was originally designed for a skimmer. I'll put the chaeto in there. 

 

Any thoughts on Algae Reactors? Do they actually work efficiently?

[Tired]

You can fasten it to a rock with some string and it will grow clinging instead of loose, if that's the issue. 

 

I've never tried an algae reactor. Algae uses up nitrates, though, so anything that increases your algae will decrease nitrates. Also, soft corals in particular will use nitrates up to grow, if I remember correctly.

 

I wonder if something might be leaching nitrates. What size is your tank? I wouldn't think a small fish would produce a notable amount of anything in most tanks.

[Abhijit]

2 minutes ago, Tired said:

You can fasten it to a rock with some string and it will grow clinging instead of loose, if that's the issue. 

 

I've never tried an algae reactor. Algae uses up nitrates, though, so anything that increases your algae will decrease nitrates. Also, soft corals in particular will use nitrates up to grow, if I remember correctly.

 

I wonder if something might be leaching nitrates. What size is your tank? I wouldn't think a small fish would produce a notable amount of anything in most tanks.

@Tired Mine is a 18X18X18 tank which includes a 18X6X18 internal sump at the back. There's just filter floss (that I wash once a month), Sera Siporax & Seachem Denitrate (that I use as my bio media) and my return Pump. That's it, nothing else in there 

 

My nitrates are between 20-30ppm range. 

 

Do zoas soak up NO3 & PO4? I was planning to add a few zoa frags. I wanted a hammer too, but I suppose it's too early to attempt LPS yet

[Tired]

Do you have live rock and live sand? You really need those. 

 

Zoas will use nitrates and phosphates, yes, though they may not use it at a terribly notable rate due to being fairly small. Depends on how fast the ones you pick grow. 

[Abhijit]

13 minutes ago, Tired said:

Do you have live rock and live sand? You really need those. 

 

Zoas will use nitrates and phosphates, yes, though they may not use it at a terribly notable rate due to being fairly small. Depends on how fast the ones you pick grow. 

@Tired I used dry rock, but I used sand from another tank that I use as QT. So the sand was cycled, not the rock

 

I'm thinking the best way to do it would be to add some chaeto to my back sump or just pick up a chaeto reactor. 

 

What's your take on bio pellets reactor? A lot of people use those to reduce N&P

[Tamberav]

With bio pellets you would need a good skimmer which it doesn't sound like you have room for. 

 

 

[Abhijit]

2 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

With bio pellets you would need a good skimmer which it doesn't sound like you have room for. 

 

 

I could use an internal skimmer. Something like a tunze 9001/9004

[Garf]

14 hours ago, Abhijit said:

Hi,

 

A little history first. My tank is fully cycled, has gone through the diatom bloom and is currently stocked with a blue damsel that i feed sparingly once a day. 

 

How long has the tank been established? Questioning the "my tank is fully cycled" statement, perhaps it is just a matter of time to get that dry rock filled with more good stuff to handle the biofiltration. Also, what size tank, how much rock?

 

[Tamberav]

I wouldn't consider those to be very good for biopellets. 

 

Bio pellets grow bacteria in excess which skimmers remove but most nano skimmers are not that efficient. 

 

I personally wouldn't seek out any of those fixes. The tank is just young and still working itself out. 

 

I think the macro algae would be more appropriate. 

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, Abhijit said:

@Tired Mine is a 18X18X18 tank which includes a 18X6X18 internal sump at the back. There's just filter floss (that I wash once a month), Sera Siporax & Seachem Denitrate (that I use as my bio media) and my return Pump. That's it, nothing else in there 

 

My nitrates are between 20-30ppm range. 

 

Do zoas soak up NO3 & PO4? I was planning to add a few zoa frags. I wanted a hammer too, but I suppose it's too early to attempt LPS yet

That method with floss may be your issue. Floss is meant to be replaced weekly, washing it never really gets it clean, leading to nutrient increase.

 

 

You will need a light for the chaeto and reverse light cycle is what people find best.

[Abhijit]

On 11/21/2019 at 11:36 AM, Garf said:

How long has the tank been established? Questioning the "my tank is fully cycled" statement, perhaps it is just a matter of time to get that dry rock filled with more good stuff to handle the biofiltration. Also, what size tank, how much rock?

 

@Garf The tank cycled in about 2 weeks, since i was using cycled biomedia and cycled sand. Only the rocks were dry. 

 

The tank is 18X18X18 cube. Approximately 21g including the sump. 

[Abhijit]

On 11/21/2019 at 11:39 AM, Tamberav said:

I wouldn't consider those to be very good for biopellets. 

 

Bio pellets grow bacteria in excess which skimmers remove but most nano skimmers are not that efficient. 

 

I personally wouldn't seek out any of those fixes. The tank is just young and still working itself out. 

 

I think the macro algae would be more appropriate. 

@Tamberav I finally ordered the Tunze 9004 skimmer. Will use with along with Aquaforest Probiotic Salt, it's known to reduce N&P. 

 

I will then put in some macroalgae in a reverse light cycle. 

 

Fingers crossed!

[Abhijit]

On 11/21/2019 at 12:28 PM, Clown79 said:

That method with floss may be your issue. Floss is meant to be replaced weekly, washing it never really gets it clean, leading to nutrient increase.

 

 

You will need a light for the chaeto and reverse light cycle is what people find best.

@Clown79 Gotcha! Will change the floss weekly. Along with the skimmer and AF Probiotic Salt, I'm hoping that fixes it