The secret ingredient of Time

[jservedio]

One thing many reefers tend to forget when discussing stability in a tank, exporting nutrients, dealing with outbreaks out algae, etc. is the age of the tank. I'm not talking about new tank problems and the waves of algae typical in the first year or so while everything is settling down, but the ecosystem that develops over the course of many years and it's incredible effects on stability. Everyone recognizes the benefits of things like feather dusters, sponges, and coralline, but other things that most consider pests like vermetid snails, colonial hydroids, asterinas, and even "nuisance" algae can all dramatically improve the stability of your tank when all of their populations reach equilibrium and keep each other in check.

 

I wanted to show how even these nuisances can contribute positively, hopefully get some other reefers with very mature to share some pictures, and try and get everyone to think about tank maturity when answering questions - especially for things like cyano and dinos where someone with a very old tank may not even have to address the problem but someone with a newer tank will have to get drastic.

 

First - detritus. For the first few years of my tank's life - I had to have to vacuum out my sump every few weeks or it would fill up with an obscene amount of detritus and nutrient levels would rapidly increase However, I don't even have to think about it anymore and only have to vacuum out the return chamber of my sump every few years. Why? Because detritus never even makes it to my sump anymore with the vermetid snails in my overflow box. Here is the hellscape of my overflow box:

 

 

Any smaller particles that make it past there ends up in my sump where there are more layers of organisms ready to snatch it up. The main chamber of my sump is filled with literally thousands of feather dusters and the entire floor of my sump is filled with hundreds of pineapple sponges:

 

 

The detritus that has built up on the bottom in these pictures is more than 3 years worth.

 

 

And it's not just the sump - take this shot for example in an area where I have basically no coral:

 

It's got out of control vermetids, algae, hydroids, dinos, sponges, feather dusters and probably more I just haven't noticed. In a newer tank I'd be going absolutely mad trying to get them under control. But, when everything is competing with each other, your corals have no problem growing right over all this crap.

 

You can see the last vestiges of colonial hydroids poking through the zoas here, but this rock looked exactly the same as above about 5 years ago:

 

Healthy coral has no problem growing over all of that, as long as everything is in equilibrium.

 

Even the dinos are totally fine! When everything is balanced and the environment mature, they are just another part of the ecosystem and they are unable to get out of control. Here is an example of dinos, green algae, and cyano all in a small patch on my sandbed - but it doesn't have to be dealt with. It'll naturally disappear in a few days without exploding in population. If I tried to remove the dinos, I'd probably get a small breakout of green film algae or the cyano would bloom - when they are all at low levels, they keep each other in check.

 

[WV Reefer]

26 minutes ago, jservedio said:

One thing many reefers tend to forget when discussing stability in a tank, exporting nutrients, dealing with outbreaks out algae, etc. is the age of the tank. I'm not talking about new tank problems and the waves of algae typical in the first year or so while everything is settling down, but the ecosystem that develops over the course of many years and it's incredible effects on stability. Everyone recognizes the benefits of things like feather dusters, sponges, and coralline, but other things that most consider pests like vermetid snails, colonial hydroids, asterinas, and even "nuisance" algae can all dramatically improve the stability of your tank when all of their populations reach equilibrium and keep each other in check.

 

I wanted to show how even these nuisances can contribute positively, hopefully get some other reefers with very mature to share some pictures, and try and get everyone to think about tank maturity when answering questions - especially for things like cyano and dinos where someone with a very old tank may not even have to address the problem but someone with a newer tank will have to get drastic.

 

First - detritus. For the first few years of my tank's life - I had to have to vacuum out my sump every few weeks or it would fill up with an obscene amount of detritus and nutrient levels would rapidly increase However, I don't even have to think about it anymore and only have to vacuum out the return chamber of my sump every few years. Why? Because detritus never even makes it to my sump anymore with the vermetid snails in my overflow box. Here is the hellscape of my overflow box:

 

 

Any smaller particles that make it past there ends up in my sump where there are more layers of organisms ready to snatch it up. The main chamber of my sump is filled with literally thousands of feather dusters and the entire floor of my sump is filled with hundreds of pineapple sponges:

 

 

The detritus that has built up on the bottom in these pictures is more than 3 years worth.

 

 

And it's not just the sump - take this shot for example in an area where I have basically no coral:

 

It's got out of control vermetids, algae, hydroids, dinos, sponges, feather dusters and probably more I just haven't noticed. In a newer tank I'd be going absolutely mad trying to get them under control. But, when everything is competing with each other, your corals have no problem growing right over all this crap.

 

You can see the last vestiges of colonial hydroids poking through the zoas here, but this rock looked exactly the same as above about 5 years ago:

 

Healthy coral has no problem growing over all of that, as long as everything is in equilibrium.

 

Even the dinos are totally fine! When everything is balanced and the environment mature, they are just another part of the ecosystem and they are unable to get out of control. Here is an example of dinos, green algae, and cyano all in a small patch on my sandbed - but it doesn't have to be dealt with. It'll naturally disappear in a few days without exploding in population. If I tried to remove the dinos, I'd probably get a small breakout of green film algae or the cyano would bloom - when they are all at low levels, they keep each other in check.

 

Great write up. 😊

[MrObscura]

Yea, in my year and few months in the hobby Ive quickly learned that keeping things simple and just letting the tank do its thing as much as possible is the best bet.

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

32 minutes ago, jservedio said:

One thing many reefers tend to forget when discussing stability in a tank, exporting nutrients, dealing with outbreaks out algae, etc. is the age of the tank. I'm not talking about new tank problems and the waves of algae typical in the first year or so while everything is settling down, but the ecosystem that develops over the course of many years and it's incredible effects on stability. Everyone recognizes the benefits of things like feather dusters, sponges, and coralline, but other things that most consider pests like vermetid snails, colonial hydroids, asterinas, and even "nuisance" algae can all dramatically improve the stability of your tank when all of their populations reach equilibrium and keep each other in check.

 

I wanted to show how even these nuisances can contribute positively, hopefully get some other reefers with very mature to share some pictures, and try and get everyone to think about tank maturity when answering questions - especially for things like cyano and dinos where someone with a very old tank may not even have to address the problem but someone with a newer tank will have to get drastic.

 

First - detritus. For the first few years of my tank's life - I had to have to vacuum out my sump every few weeks or it would fill up with an obscene amount of detritus and nutrient levels would rapidly increase However, I don't even have to think about it anymore and only have to vacuum out the return chamber of my sump every few years. Why? Because detritus never even makes it to my sump anymore with the vermetid snails in my overflow box. Here is the hellscape of my overflow box:

 

 

Any smaller particles that make it past there ends up in my sump where there are more layers of organisms ready to snatch it up. The main chamber of my sump is filled with literally thousands of feather dusters and the entire floor of my sump is filled with hundreds of pineapple sponges:

 

 

The detritus that has built up on the bottom in these pictures is more than 3 years worth.

 

 

And it's not just the sump - take this shot for example in an area where I have basically no coral:

 

It's got out of control vermetids, algae, hydroids, dinos, sponges, feather dusters and probably more I just haven't noticed. In a newer tank I'd be going absolutely mad trying to get them under control. But, when everything is competing with each other, your corals have no problem growing right over all this crap.

 

You can see the last vestiges of colonial hydroids poking through the zoas here, but this rock looked exactly the same as above about 5 years ago:

 

Healthy coral has no problem growing over all of that, as long as everything is in equilibrium.

 

Even the dinos are totally fine! When everything is balanced and the environment mature, they are just another part of the ecosystem and they are unable to get out of control. Here is an example of dinos, green algae, and cyano all in a small patch on my sandbed - but it doesn't have to be dealt with. It'll naturally disappear in a few days without exploding in population. If I tried to remove the dinos, I'd probably get a small breakout of green film algae or the cyano would bloom - when they are all at low levels, they keep each other in check.

 

That's a great detail of how "pests" are actually ok. It's definitely nice to know that these things will control themselves over time.

[jservedio]

6 minutes ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

That's a great detail of how "pests" are actually ok. It's definitely nice to know that these things will control themselves over time.

And it's not even just the equilibrium that is reached at some point, the biggest factor is the balance between waste being generated within the tank verses the waste being used up by your tank. Once your fish stop growing, the waste being generated stops increasing and as your coral get bigger and bigger the waste being taken up by non-algae increases. Plus once you stop messing with your equipment, get it dialed in, and stop adding tons of new livestock, your corals won't have to keep adjusting to changes anymore.

[Clown79]

Great write up.

 

Over the years I have become less worried about cleaning everything so much.

 

I siphon out my back chambers only a little bit to remove food that bypasses the floss. I no longer aggressively vacuum the chambers anymore.

 

I no longer scrape the walls because there is life in there and that life is part of the ecosystem- they all work together to make the system run better.

 

I don't worry so much about a bit of algae, i let it be now unless i am concerned that it will become a serious issue.

 

I stopped vacuuming my sand aggressively, i do it lightly now, preferring to keep life in the sand to build up diversity.

 

I think making the system less sterile and more natural is one way to have a successful long term system.

 

Less media, less products used and more natural methods: macro algaes, pod condo's, feather dusters, etc etc. 

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

5 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Great write up.

 

Over the years I have become less worried about cleaning everything so much.

 

I siphon out my back chambers only a little bit to remove food that bypasses the floss. I no longer aggressively vacuum the chambers anymore.

 

I no longer scrape the walls because there is life in there and that life is part of the ecosystem- they all work together to make the system run better.

 

I don't worry so much about a bit of algae, i let it be now unless i am concerned that it will become a serious issue.

 

I stopped vacuuming my sand aggressively, i do it lightly now, preferring to keep life in the sand to build up diversity.

 

I think making the system less sterile and more natural is one way to have a successful long term system.

 

Less media, less products used and more natural methods: macro algaes, pod condo's, feather dusters, etc etc. 

oh that's a cool little set-up. Do you ever worry about stuff getting trapped in there? I was gonna do something like that in my waterbox 20 but got worried about traping crap in there.

[jservedio]

Thanks @Clown79, this is exactly what I was hoping for with this thread.

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

8 minutes ago, jservedio said:

Thanks @Clown79, this is exactly what I was hoping for with this thread.

I like the topic. I think it may actually help out newer people.

[mcarroll]

56 minutes ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

I like the topic. I think it may actually help out newer people.

Newbies in particular get so "feared up" over these topics – should be VERY helpful!

 

@Christopher Marks any chance this can be a sticky thread so it doesn't get lost?

 

4 hours ago, jservedio said:

detritus

What a great topic overall!  Thanks for taking the time to write it up and post it!!

 

And detritus specifically is a wonderful thing for folks to know more about.

 

Detritus is food, reserve alkalinity, reserve phosphates, and a micro-refuguim altogether in one super-beneficial package.

 

A related anecdote:

 

In order to keep detritus from settling uselessly in my sump, I added a powerhead there (which wasn't blocked up by baffles) so there was enough flow to keep any/all detritus that made it down there afloat so the return pump would send it back to the coral tanks, making it FOOD.  The skimmer was at the opposite end of the sump from the drain and return pump on the theory it may take out less detritus.  Can't be sure whether that part of the plan really did much to preserve detritus tho.....but it all worked well from the corals' prespective!

 

And for me.  Never had to vacuum anything in any tank on the system after I did that.

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

1 minute ago, mcarroll said:

Newbies in particular get so "feared up" over these topics – should be VERY helpful!

 

@Christopher Marks any chance this can be a sticky thread so it doesn't get lost?

 

What a great topic overall!  Thanks for taking the time to write it up and post it!!

 

And detritus specifically is a wonderful thing for folks to know more about.

 

Detritus is food, reserve alkalinity, reserve phosphates, and a micro-refuguim altogether in one super-beneficial package.

 

A related anecdote:

 

In order to keep detritus from settling uselessly in my sump, I added a powerhead there (which wasn't blocked up by baffles) so there was enough flow to keep any/all detritus that made it down there afloat so the return pump would send it back to the coral tanks, making it FOOD.  The skimmer was at the opposite end of the sump from the drain and return pump on the theory it may take out less detritus.  Can't be sure whether that part of the plan really did much to preserve detritus tho.....but it all worked well from the corals' prespective!

 

And for me.  Never had to vacuum anything in any tank on the system after I did that.

I actually didn't know that about detritus . There is actually quite a few things discussed that I wasn't aware of. Hopefully everyone can get in on this discussion, it's super helpful. There is a lot of stuff that I still learn as I've only been reef keeping for about a year and a half.

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

oh that's a cool little set-up. Do you ever worry about stuff getting trapped in there? I was gonna do something like that in my waterbox 20 but got worried about traping crap in there.

I was concerned in the past but I keep the rubble in a box i made so pods can have a place to reproduce but also easy removal for cleaning.

 

I take a Turkey baster once in a while to suck up any larger detritus but there really hasn't been a buildup of any.

Pods like detritus so they are a tiny part of the cuc.

[MrObscura]

I had nothing but trouble when originally trying to keep my nutrients low thinking that was necessary. It resulted in dinos which were actually a blessing in disguise forcing me to research and realize it was low nutrients that were my problem.

 

I've since stopped running chemical filtration other than carbon for a week a month. Just to polish the water and a little piece of mind in that it may remove any possible contaminants. 

 

I've also started feeding a lot more and worry far more about nutrients being too low.  

 

As for detritus that settles it's mostly inert and doesn't effect water chemistry. Cleaning it up is really just aesthetics. I let the back chambers of my nuvo, as well as my intank basket, be. They're covered in sponges, little snails, algae, detritus, etc. If anything it helps by not only creating more ecosystem but also encourages that area to be the "dirty" looking part of it.

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

15 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I was concerned in the past but I keep the rubble in a box i made so pods can have a place to reproduce but also easy removal for cleaning.

 

I take a Turkey baster once in a while to suck up any larger detritus but there really hasn't been a buildup of any.

Pods like detritus so they are a tiny part of the cuc.

Oh wow . Since my tank is bare bottom I was thinking of a spot to put pods. I just dumped both bottles from algae barn right in the tank. I dose phyto everyday and I haven't seen any pods . No clue if they are all gone. I'm gonna try the pod condo next time I order pods.

Bare bottom is another challenge lol.

[Ratvan]

1 minute ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

Oh wow . Since my tank is bare bottom I was thinking of a spot to put pods. I just dumped both bottles from algae barn right in the tank. I dose phyto everyday and I haven't seen any pods . No clue if they are all gone. I'm gonna try the pod condo next time I order pods.

Bare bottom is another challenge lol.

When my Pico went barebottom I DIY'd a really bad Condo and had them in the HOB. Lost some due to flow but kept numbers up with any bits of algae that I had loose. Dosed the tank with phyto (DIY set up again. Banana peel 👍) and numbers seem to settle over time. Havent noticed any in the past few weeks and have gotten some serious algae blooms

[jservedio]

9 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

I had nothing but trouble when originally trying to keep my nutrients low thinking that was necessary. It resulted in dinos which were actually a blessing in disguise forcing me to research and realize it was low nutrients that were my problem.

 

I've since stopped running chemical filtration other than carbon for a week a month. Just to polish the water and a little piece of mind in that it may remove any possible contaminants. 

 

I've also started feeding a lot more and worry far more about nutrients being too low.  

While I am a proponent of not starving our tanks with ultra-low nutrients, you need to be just as careful with not going overboard with a newer tank. While I can dump huge amounts of food in without much of an issue, I have the critters all the way down the food-chain to handle it. Even the surface of my hermit crab's shell is doing it's part after close to a decade. Never forget that you can't shortcut anything in this hobby.

 

[Clown79]

32 minutes ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

Oh wow . Since my tank is bare bottom I was thinking of a spot to put pods. I just dumped both bottles from algae barn right in the tank. I dose phyto everyday and I haven't seen any pods . No clue if they are all gone. I'm gonna try the pod condo next time I order pods.

Bare bottom is another challenge lol.

I don't always see a lot of pods, they are so tiny. Depending on species, some stick mostly in rocks so not easy to see.

 

When you add the pods, do it at lights out and no water movement for 30mins - hr. 

 

When it's dark they are more secure.

 

I added part bottle in back chambers and in tank.

[MrObscura]

I find it much harder to raise nutrients to such a high level it causes serious issue than it is to drop them to low. Even when intentionally dirtying up my tank to combat dinos by feeding heavy daily for 3 weeks with no water change. No3 was like 80 and po4 was like 0.3 by the end and my corals actually looked better than ever.

 

Of course you don't want to over do it where you get an ammonia spike, but in a cycled tank youd have to really overfeed in proportion to your livestock to make that happen. 

[mcarroll]

I've never really thought about it explicitly, but I guess that's another thing to recommend direct nutrient dosing over overfeeding.

 

All the nutrients are already reduced to their most basic form so there can be no risk of ammonia spike.

[MrObscura]

Yea, my dirtying up wasnt very controlled. Just go for it. But it worked.

 

If intentionally trying to raise nutrients to fight dinos a controlled dosing of nutrients directly probably is the best bet if for no other reason than not raising them higher than necessary.

 

But for actually providing nutrition to live stock I like actually feeding food directly and letting that also provide no3 and po4. You dont really have to worry about nutrients getting out of control if you just feed accordingly and use common sense. Whereas if you dose to a certain level then you would have to be careful not to feed too much.

 

As for pods. I'm bare bottom and dont have anywhere specific for them but my tanks teaming with them. 

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

I don't always see a lot of pods, they are so tiny. Depending on species, some stick mostly in rocks so not easy to see.

 

When you add the pods, do it at lights out and no water movement for 30mins - hr. 

 

When it's dark they are more secure.

 

I added part bottle in back chambers and in tank.

I think i might do the pod condo and order another bottle.. will see though. Thanks for the tips 😀

[jservedio]

3 minutes ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

I think i might do the pod condo and order another bottle.. will see though. Thanks for the tips 😀

Even if it doesn't work for you, don't worry about it - every tank is different. Pods stand no chance in my tank with my wrasse, but other organisms take advantage of the niche left open by their absence.

[Clown79]

13 hours ago, jservedio said:

Even if it doesn't work for you, don't worry about it - every tank is different. Pods stand no chance in my tank with my wrasse, but other organisms take advantage of the niche left open by their absence.

That's the purpose of the pod condo being in the sump/fuge, it's an area for them to safely reproduce without being eaten, constantly replenishing the tank

[Clown79]

15 hours ago, MrObscura said:

I find it much harder to raise nutrients to such a high level it causes serious issue than it is to drop them to low. Even when intentionally dirtying up my tank to combat dinos by feeding heavy daily for 3 weeks with no water change. No3 was like 80 and po4 was like 0.3 by the end and my corals actually looked better than ever.

 

Of course you don't want to over do it where you get an ammonia spike, but in a cycled tank youd have to really overfeed in proportion to your livestock to make that happen. 

I had the same issue.

 

I fed reef roids daily, fish food daily(sometimes 2 times a day), and dosed phyto every other day

 

After 5 weeks my nitrates were 2-5 and phos was 0.14. Tank was spotless and corals looked great 

[jservedio]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

That's the purpose of the pod condo being in the sump/fuge, it's an area for them to safely reproduce without being eaten, constantly replenishing the tank

Yep! I just meant in my display tank they can't do anything. I've got some rubble in my sump in the return chamber as well where they can live and do some work, but I haven't seen a living one in the tank in probably 2 years.