what to do post ich/velvet

[neyes_ice]

hi everyone, had a recent bout with ich or velvet. lost 4 fish out of 6. 2 clowns an azure damsel and a royal gramma.

its been a week since the last fish died, survivors are a fire fish and a watchman goby, both never showed symptoms and are currently very active and eating.

can i re introduce new fish in this tank after 8 weeks? or will the parasites will survive along with the remaining fish? i never put in any medication in the DT everything happened quickly.

 

before i re introduce any fish i'm planning to setup a 10 gallon QT tank. if i where to get some biomedia (marine pure spheres) from the DT to put in the QT will it be infected too?

what if i pre-treat the QT tank with copper meds will that help the biomedia from the DT? will that prevent the new fish from being infected?

[Humblefish]

If it was Ich or velvet, then unfortunately any surviving fish could be asymptomatic carriers. Meaning, they've developed immunity/resistance to whatever pathogen wiped out the rest of your fish. Sounds great, except they may pass along the disease to (nonimmune) fish you add to the tank.

 

The only way to stop this never-ending cycle of losing fish is to go fallow/fishless for 76 days, and treat all the survivors with copper in a QT.

[Clown79]

4 hours ago, nano_nano_nano said:

hi everyone, had a recent bout with ich or velvet. lost 4 fish out of 6. 2 clowns an azure damsel and a royal gramma.

its been a week since the last fish died, survivors are a fire fish and a watchman goby, both never showed symptoms and are currently very active and eating.

can i re introduce new fish in this tank after 8 weeks? or will the parasites will survive along with the remaining fish? i never put in any medication in the DT everything happened quickly.

 

before i re introduce any fish i'm planning to setup a 10 gallon QT tank. if i where to get some biomedia (marine pure spheres) from the DT to put in the QT will it be infected too?

what if i pre-treat the QT tank with copper meds will that help the biomedia from the DT? will that prevent the new fish from being infected?

As long as the remaining fish stayed in the tank, the parasite is still in the tank. The tank needs to go fallow(fishless) for 8 weeks, longer is better and more full proof.

 

Your remaining fish should be placed in qt and treated. No fish should go back into the display tank until it has been fishless for 8 weeks +.

 

 

[neyes_ice]

thanks for the info guys, that sucks. in the process of setting up the 10 gallon hospital/QT tank. 

 

do you think i can get new fish and QT them at the same time as i am treating the survivors?

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, nano_nano_nano said:

thanks for the info guys, that sucks. in the process of setting up the 10 gallon hospital/QT tank. 

 

do you think i can get new fish and QT them at the same time as i am treating the survivors?

Ya, most of us at one time or another have experienced this.

 

I lost a gorgeous purple firefish to velvet because i didn't qt.

 

I qt everything now. Being in Cda where meds can't be purchased, I can't prophylactically treat fish so I qt and monitor for 4 weeks.

 

I honestly don't know if healthy fish should be placed with fish that NEED treating. 

 

If it was me, no, I wouldn't put new fish with parasite exposed fish. 

 

 

@seabass @Tamberav what do you think is the best? Treat the sick fish with new fish?

[neyes_ice]

6 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Ya, most of us at one time or another have experienced this.

 

I lost a gorgeous purple firefish to velvet because i didn't qt.

 

I qt everything now. Being in Cda where meds can't be purchased, I can't prophylactically treat fish so I qt and monitor for 4 weeks.

 

I honestly don't know if healthy fish should be placed with fish that NEED treating. 

 

If it was me, no, I wouldn't put new fish with parasite exposed fish. 

 

 

@seabass @Tamberav what do you think is the best? Treat the sick fish with new fish?

yeah i think these things is kind of a right of passage, if you quit when bad things happen you're not meant to be for the hobby but if you carry on you'll be better for it.

what do i do now for nutrient source for the empty thank? will daily reef roids feeding suffice?

[seabass]

27 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

what do you think is the best? Treat the sick fish with new fish?

You could; that would kill two birds (so to speak).  However, I usually don't like treating healthy fish with copper unless they have been exposed to a parasite.  It would probably be best to have a separate hospital tank and QT tank; but I get that most homes aren't equipped to handle that.  So you could treat the infected fish first (which I believe takes a couple of weeks), then quarantine the new fish after the copper has been removed.  However, there is still a chance that you'll have to re-treat the whole group if they show symptoms.

 

Maybe it depends on the fish vendor.  If purchasing from Diver's Den, there is a reasonable chance that the fish are healthy.  However, if you are purchasing from a store with a poor reputation, there's a better chance that the fish have been exposed to parasites (and treatment along with the original fish would make more sense).

 

Wishy-washy enough?

[Clown79]

36 minutes ago, nano_nano_nano said:

yeah i think these things is kind of a right of passage, if you quit when bad things happen you're not meant to be for the hobby but if you carry on you'll be better for it.

what do i do now for nutrient source for the empty thank? will daily reef roids feeding suffice?

If you have corals, feed twice a week at most, otherwise I would only feed a bit of food for hermits etc, not even daily.

 

The bacteria won't die without fish in there.

[Clown79]

3 minutes ago, seabass said:

You could; that would kill two birds (so to speak).  However, I usually don't like treating healthy fish with copper unless they have been exposed to a parasite.  It would probably be best to have a separate hospital tank and QT tank; but I get that most homes aren't equipped to handle that.  So you could treat the infected fish first (which I believe takes a couple of weeks), then quarantine the new fish after the copper has been removed.  However, there is still a chance that you'll have to re-treat the whole group if they show symptoms.

 

Maybe it depends on the fish vendor.  If purchasing from Diver's Den, there is a reasonable chance that the fish are healthy.  However, if you are purchasing from a store with a poor reputation, there's a better chance that the fish have been exposed to parasites (and treatment along with the original fish would make more sense).

 

Wishy-washy enough?

That's what I would do. A qt and hospital tank or treat the sick, then get new fish and qt them.

[neyes_ice]

17 minutes ago, seabass said:

You could; that would kill two birds (so to speak).  However, I usually don't like treating healthy fish with copper unless they have been exposed to a parasite.  It would probably be best to have a separate hospital tank and QT tank; but I get that most homes aren't equipped to handle that.  So you could treat the infected fish first (which I believe takes a couple of weeks), then quarantine the new fish after the copper has been removed.  However, there is still a chance that you'll have to re-treat the whole group if they show symptoms.

 

Maybe it depends on the fish vendor.  If purchasing from Diver's Den, there is a reasonable chance that the fish are healthy.  However, if you are purchasing from a store with a poor reputation, there's a better chance that the fish have been exposed to parasites (and treatment along with the original fish would make more sense).

 

Wishy-washy enough?

thanks for the info, so here's my plan:

10gal with hob

get some bio media from DT

half old water from DT half new water

will use seachem cupramine as treatment

put the 2 surviving fish.

how long is the treatment time?

when treatment is done will use cuprisorb to remove copper.

introduce new fish in the QT without copper for observation and hope its not infected from the LFS

re introduction of all the fish in DT after 8+ weeks of going fallow.

 

will treatment and QT of new fish fit inside the 8+ weeks of going fallow?

 

thanks for all the help!

[seabass]

According to Seachem, treatment lasts for 14 days: https://seachem.com/cupramine.php

 

Follow the directions regarding treatment.  It can be important to test copper levels during treatment.  Also read the FAQs.

[Humblefish]

I personally would focus on getting your current fish heathy first before trying to QT new additions. Things can, and do, go wrong during quarantine so it's best not to overextend yourself with too many fish if it can be helped.

[mcarroll]

On 8/21/2019 at 6:35 PM, nano_nano_nano said:

hi everyone, had a recent bout with ich or velvet. lost 4 fish out of 6. 2 clowns an azure damsel and a royal gramma.

its been a week since the last fish died, survivors are a fire fish and a watchman goby, both never showed symptoms and are currently very active and eating.

A more holistic assessment is usually valuable.  Please correct anything I get wrong...

 

It looks like your tank was just started in December.  It appears to have been a rocky start, marked by (at least) a dino outbreak that would have set things back. 

 

It looks like you may have purchased six fish all at once, maybe sight unseen, maybe from a source that needed to use shipping to get you the fish.

 

It looks like the tank was only 15 gallons -- too small for the number and type of fish that were added.

 

Here's why all of that makes for a bad plan... 

(...even though pretty much everything you did is fairly common practice.)

 

The Fish

We know that marginal fish like those that have been shipped will become more stressed when placed in a marginal environment like a brand new, troubled reef or QT tank.

 

We know that fish which become more stressed suffer a lowered immune system.

 

This added stress and lowered immunity inherent to the situaation is one reason that some folks are unsuccessful with QT tanks.  Done wrong, QT can be quite stressful...which can be enough added stress to make a bad situation worse.

 

The Pathogens

We also know that pathogens, when placed into a marginal environment, will be more virulent and outbreaks will be bigger.

 

The Tank

Lastly, we know that a healthy environment can have the opposite effect of a marginal one. 

 

Healthy fish in a stable, healthy tank actually provide immune support for a new, marginal fish. 

 

The tank itself becomes more and more hostile to pathogenic invaders as time passes and the tank's niches all fill in. 

 

In the face of diversity ranging from predatory microbes to cleaner shrimp, everything is food for something in a healthy reef.

 

 

All those things add up to one main idea:  Take your time. 

 

Let your tank mature. 

 

Don't be in a hurry to stock fish or for any other reason -- do it all slowly and in small increments.

 

This slow approach also gives you time to adapt to the new nutrient levels after things like fish and cleanup crew are added and the new algae that will surely grow from their waste byproducts. 

 

When algae happens, remember to boost your cleanup crew, and remember that you need to keep any big, established algae pulled before herbivores will help with it in most cases. 

 

Wait a few more weeks for things to re-stabilize with the new crew and for you to gauge their progress. 

 

Adjust the CUC again if needed, and monitor again, etc.  Repeat until algae is under control and the fish are all settled.  Then consider adding more fish....no more than one or two at a time for best results.  (But keep in mind that tank size!)

 

Check these links out:

• The Nature and Consequences of Indirect Effects in Ecological Communities
• Hyperparasitism of trichodinid ciliates on monogenean gill flukes of two marine fish
• Innate immunity of fish (overview)
• The Fish Guide
• Personal immunity versus social immunity

There are probably other interesting related articles if you browse or run a search or two there.

 

5 hours ago, nano_nano_nano said:

thanks for the info guys, that sucks. in the process of setting up the 10 gallon hospital/QT tank. 

 

do you think i can get new fish and QT them at the same time as i am treating the survivors?

With a little bit of consideration, you can leave the fish that seem to be recovering in the display tank, IMO.  If you don't have a QT setup and have never run one before, this may be a good option.

 

But QT or not it's a bad idea to be planning for any more fish right now. 

 

If your fish have been exposed to velvet (no actual ID has been done, so it's just a suspicion) and lived, then they have what they apparently consider a strong adaptive immune response.  The velvet dinoflagegllate isn't going to be able to survive and reproduce on a host with a strong immune response.  Without reproduction, it's should be just a matter of time before the remaining velvet population dies off....hence the advice not to rush things.  Running a UV filter or even a micron filter can speed this process along greatly. 

 

Could have been ich, but that doesn't change things too much.....their immunity to ich is apparently more of a carrier status, so they can be healthy but still releasing ich to the tank at low levels for quite a while (e.g. the so-called fallow period)...so it still wouldn't be advisable to be planning to add new fish now. 

 

Either way, use the next few months to give the tank TLC.  Make sure your algae issues are handled.  Make sure your cleanup crew is up to snuff.  Add some corals (slowly) if that's part of your plan, etc. 

 

Take lots of time between every step you take to allow for observation and reassessment. 

 

With all those things to put your attention on, it should be easy to let the months pass.  Do not rush back into adding fish any time soon.  🙂

 

One Last Thing

It's also useful to distinguish between a hospital tank and QT tank. 

 

Hospital tanks are for short term use where medication is expected to be used. 

 

QT is for observation over a longer period of time...usually characterized in terms of weeks or months.

 

These differing purposes lead to very different setup priorities for a QT tank vs a hospital -- priorities that are important to the well-being of the fish.

 

To put it simply:

• A hospital tank should be as simple as possible - e.g. heater, PVC, filter.  This type of setup has much less impact on the treatment itself, among other things.
• A QT should be set up like a simple but full-fledged fish-only tank.  Ideally some thing like fake plants and a chunk of mature live rock will be present.  This type of setup is designed to keep stress minimized on the fish so they can rebuild successfully and keep their immune system high.

Using a bare-bones setup like a hospital tank for longer term fish keeping, such as that required in a quarantine situation, isn't advisable for several reasons - #1 of which is ongoing stress to the fish.
 

If treatment is needed and all you have is a QT as described, with due consideration you CAN treat in a QT setup for most common things. 

 

Depends more on your treatment of choice than your target organism. 

 

A hospital-style tank would be strongly recommended for some treatments, and might be required if you have too many fish in QT and only a subset are in need of treatment, etc. 

 

QT'ing multiple fish is not advisable for the beginner, IMO.  The fewer the better...one being the ideal (as mentioned earlier).

 

(As usual, this advice isn't directed to everyone...I presume that experts can get away with doing anything, and often do just that...but not always.)

[neyes_ice]

thanks @mcarroll i appreciate the time and the long reply. everything makes sense and will keep it in mind always.

the fish were not added at the same time i have had months between adding each fish. it just happens the last fish i put was the culprit for the parasite.

i setup this tank as a learning tank, i wanted to see if i was capable of keeping things alive especially the corals, before going big. i was aware keeping a small thank is more difficult so if i managed to this right i know i'd be somewhat ready for a bigger thank. 

i would be inclined to say i started it fairly by the book. i make my own RODI, it cycled for 3 months, read a lot. did things as slowly as i can.

added fishes slowly, added a few corals at a time (but recently got hooked on zoas haha)

overstocking with fish was intentional, my nutrient export was an oversized chaeto reactor 

everything was working well until the chaeto reactor was working too well. nitrates where always 0  and phosphates below .03

i wasn't aware that this could cause dinos and i suspect my coris wrasse (impulse buy) was decimating the pod population and could have contributed to the eventual dinos (maybe)

i am learning a lot with what has been happening with my tank, dinos then ich, i think this is the best way moving forward, you can read a lot of things in the forums to prevent things but i think it is inevitable. i have no intentions of quitting as i have from the start accepted that things can and will go wrong in this hobby.

i have considered of just letting the 2 surviving fish be, they have never shown any symptoms and are very active and eating.

i just worry that parasites are dormant internally or externally (please correct me) so the last fish that died doesn't count as the start of the fallow period i guess.

if i could i would just like to add just 1 more fish. an active one. my thank always look empty because the yellow watchman goby the fire fish are always hiding haha.

 

now i have a 10 gallon tank and battling the idea of QT tank or ZOA tank :D

[seabass]

I like most of what Matt stated above (especially going slow and allowing the tank to mature).  Maybe the only point where we diverge slightly is in the ability of fish to fend off these parasites on their own (provided healthy fish and a healthy environment).  I recognize that not all fish which are exposed to these parasites are doomed to die (like those with built up immunity); however, trusting in this can sometimes lead to unnecessary deaths.

 

I had a healthy tank (previously Ich-free) where one new infected fish took out the entire tank.  When we are talking about nano tanks (which I feel make fish even more vulnerable to these parasites), and fish which have no built up immunity, trusting in their immune systems to protect them is potentially a big risk.  I feel that these fish should be treated and the parasites left to die off on their own in a fallow tank.  Otherwise, new fish (even healthy, parasite-free fish) may be susceptible to infection.

 

 

[neyes_ice]

7 minutes ago, seabass said:

I like most of what Matt stated above (especially going slow and allowing the tank to mature).  Maybe the only point where we diverge slightly is in the ability of fish to fend off these parasites on their own (provided healthy fish and a healthy environment).  I recognize that not all fish which are exposed to these parasites are doomed to die (like those with built up immunity); however, trusting in this can sometimes lead to unnecessary deaths.

 

I had a healthy tank (previously Ich-free) where one new infected fish took out the entire tank.  When we are talking about nano tanks (which I feel make fish even more vulnerable to these parasites), and fish which have no built up immunity, trusting in their immune systems to protect them is potentially a big risk.  I feel that these fish should be treated and the parasites left to die off on their own in a fallow tank.  Otherwise, new fish (even healthy, parasite-free fish) may be susceptible to infection.

 

 

thanks seabass,

 

i am thinking of two options.

#1 if i dont get anymore fish at all, i'll leave the survivors be in the DT 

#2 if i decide to get atleast 1 more fish ill do the whole thing mentioned above, treat the surviving fish go fallow, QT the new fish.

i will not introduce new fish in the current DT