Can't figure out an algae issue

[Lognor]

I've been battling some sort of algae issue for weeks.  It's all over the sandbed and glass.  I clean the glass and it comes off like green dust.  I stir up the sand and it comes back within hours.  I vacuum and do a water change it's back the next day.  At first I thought it was diatoms, so cut down my feeding and added phosban to my filtration.  No noticeable change.  Next, after turning the blues down and whites way up I realized it was a bright green color making me thing it was cyano.  I got chemiclean and started treating that.  After 48 hours, the glass is clean and the water looks crystal clear.  The sand looks much better, growth is way lower/slower.  I do the requisite water change and put my filtration media back in.  Within a day I can tell it's starting to spread again.  I do chemiclean treatments two more times.  The second time, there's small improvement, but not gone.  The third treatment appears to have no affect.  I restore the normal filtration media, do a water change and wait to see what happens.  3 days later, it's growing at a fast rate and spreading to the glass again.  I bought all new Salifert test kits and followed the instructions to the letter using a stop watch to be precise.  (previously I was using API kits and not being as precise, so prior measurements are mostly useless at this point)

 

My parameters are:

Calcium - 465

Alkalinity - 6.6 dkh

Ammonia - 0

Nitrite - 0

Phosphate - .03

PH - 8.2

Nitrate - 20

 

My feeding consists of 1 cube of frozen spirulina (strained) daily and 1 cube of frozen mysis (strained) every other day for corals.  

 

I'm running a coralife biocube 29.  Nanobox retro LED kit, Intank media kit with chemipure elite, purigen, phosban, and filter floss.  I do weekly water changes of about 4g, but have changed out 6g 3 times in the past 2 weeks.  I have 4 fish, lps, sps, cuc, etc.  You can see my journal/profile for the full list of inhabitants.

 

Clearly my Alkalinity is low and nitrates are high.  I just tested that last night, so I have not researched how best to address those yet. 

 

Am I still dealing with cyano at this point?  With the nitrates so high is that what is feeding the cyano or is it a byproduct of the cyano?  What the heck do I do next to get this under control.  I could really use some advice.   Thanks in advance to all the dedicated reefers who are sure chime in.

 

 

[Clown79]

It may not be cyano, since you are getting mixed results with chemiclean, leads me to think it's not cyano.

 

Cyano usually isn't green, normally grows in thick mats that cover everything and with bubbles.

 

Feeding a cube of spirulina every day and a half cube of mysis  might be overdoing it on frozen food, leading to an algae outbreak and the reason for high nitrates.

 

Api tests aren't bad but for phos and alk, definitely not precise enough for alk and high range phos tester which is useless for reefs.

 

Your salt may mix low alk, you'd have to test a newly mixed batch.

[Butchy21]

I'm also curious what people say because I'm in the same boat as you.  I have everything overkilled (skimmer, running GFO, small refugium) to keep a low nutrient system and I have the same algae showing up only on my sandbed.  It comes back a couple of days after doing major 25% volume water change with vacuuming the sandbed.  I've been throwing around the idea of increasing flow to the sandbed as my nitrates are 0, phosphates 0.  What are your thoughts on flow in your system?

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, Butchy21 said:

I'm also curious what people say because I'm in the same boat as you.  I have everything overkilled (skimmer, running GFO, small refugium) to keep a low nutrient system and I have the same algae showing up only on my sandbed.  It comes back a couple of days after doing major 25% volume water change with vacuuming the sandbed.  I've been throwing around the idea of increasing flow to the sandbed as my nitrates are 0, phosphates 0.  What are your thoughts on flow in your system?

O nitrates and phosphates isn't good. It can progress to other problems with coral health, coloration, coral growth, dino's, 

 

Overkill of using products also leads to issues.

 

A tank can become easily an unbalanced ecosystem.

[Lognor]

@Clown79 thanks for the follow up.  You always have good suggestions.  I didn't get a chance to test last night, but will today.  I don't expect the numbers to look much different, but I want to be 100% sure.  It's clear I have been testing nitrate wrong, and the salifert kits are just more accurate from my perspective.  You're comment about salt mix is something I was thinking about too.  My LFS uses Instant Ocean reef salt mix and in the past few months I noticed that instead of mixing to 1.025 it's 1.021.  I've been adding salt to it to bring it up to 1.025 when I am prepping the water to put into my tank.  I talk to my LFS guy about it and he said he noticed it as well, but wasn't sure if he was going to switch to another product.  Like me, he's got a bunch on hand and isn't ready to just toss it all to buy new.  I've been considering just getting RODI from my LFS and switching to red sea pro mix or getting my own 4 stage RO unit and doing it all myself.  I just haven't been sure about that being the cause of the low alkalinity.  But that wouldn't be causing my algae issue though, would it?  

I fed really heavy for a long time, pushing for coral growth.  When this issue came up about a month ago, I started working to fix it and drastically changed my feeding.  I have been doing 1 cube of spirulina each day and 1 cube of mysis every other day.  I will reduce that down to 1/2 cube of each on the same schedule and see how that goes.  I didn't think I had a lot of uneaten food in the tank, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.  

@Butchy21 As for flow, I have a ~500gph pump, a 425gph PH and a 240gph PH.  I think I have enough total flow, but I'm always wondering if I have enough in the right places.  The center of the tank could probably use more, but watching my euphyllia and plate corals, I can see  have movement in the majority of the tank.  Not saying it is perfectly dialed in with no dead spots, I'm just not convinced that is the primary issue.  

 

From here I'll be doing another big water change and cutting down the feeding.  I may do another round of chemiclean this weekend to knock it down, so I can starve it out more easily.

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, Lognor said:

@Clown79 thanks for the follow up.  You always have good suggestions.  I didn't get a chance to test last night, but will today.  I don't expect the numbers to look much different, but I want to be 100% sure.  It's clear I have been testing nitrate wrong, and the salifert kits are just more accurate from my perspective.  You're comment about salt mix is something I was thinking about too.  My LFS uses Instant Ocean reef salt mix and in the past few months I noticed that instead of mixing to 1.025 it's 1.021.  I've been adding salt to it to bring it up to 1.025 when I am prepping the water to put into my tank.  I talk to my LFS guy about it and he said he noticed it as well, but wasn't sure if he was going to switch to another product.  Like me, he's got a bunch on hand and isn't ready to just toss it all to buy new.  I've been considering just getting RODI from my LFS and switching to red sea pro mix or getting my own 4 stage RO unit and doing it all myself.  I just haven't been sure about that being the cause of the low alkalinity.  But that wouldn't be causing my algae issue though, would it?  

I fed really heavy for a long time, pushing for coral growth.  When this issue came up about a month ago, I started working to fix it and drastically changed my feeding.  I have been doing 1 cube of spirulina each day and 1 cube of mysis every other day.  I will reduce that down to 1/2 cube of each on the same schedule and see how that goes.  I didn't think I had a lot of uneaten food in the tank, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.  

@Butchy21 As for flow, I have a ~500gph pump, a 425gph PH and a 240gph PH.  I think I have enough total flow, but I'm always wondering if I have enough in the right places.  The center of the tank could probably use more, but watching my euphyllia and plate corals, I can see  have movement in the majority of the tank.  Not saying it is perfectly dialed in with no dead spots, I'm just not convinced that is the primary issue.  

 

From here I'll be doing another big water change and cutting down the feeding.  I may do another round of chemiclean this weekend to knock it down, so I can starve it out more easily.

Yes, the salt brand can be the cause of the low alk. Especially when mixed at 1.021, the lower the salinity, the lower the parameters. 

 

Coral pro has very high alk, for some that's a good thing, for others not so much.

 

Stored salt water can also have issues with parameters because certain salts can only be stored for a week.

 

Making your own water and using a good salt will get you the best results because you are in full control.

 

Until the water is tested right after mixing, you won't know if it's the salt or if its consumption causing the low alk. It's not horribly low, nsw is 7.

 

The water you are buying from the lfs may also have tds levels in it adding to the algae issues.

 

Api isn't a huge issue. Ppl like to crap on the brand but I really think it has to do with the marketing of other brands and like everything else, the belief that lower cost items don't work. The rumor spreads by one and too many follow.

 

I've tested api with other kits, the results were pretty close to the other brands, some bang on the same.

 

Feeding frozen everyday can lead to high nutrients, especially spirulina. Unless you have a fish that is a herbivore, that amount will definitely add to nutrients and algae.

 

Over feeding corals will not necessarily get them to grow faster, each one grows at different rates. But it can pollute the tank.

 

 

[Butchy21]

As @Clown79 suggested, I would look into the water from your LFS since it may have small amounts of TDS in it.  I've kept up on my water changes and maintenance yet the similar algae growth is occurring.  I recently noticed my RODI was outputting water with ~8ppm instead of 0ppm and quickly replaced the filters.  It's possible that any of these residual sources for algae growth in both of our tanks need to be exhausted / eliminated before our sandbeds remain clear of growth.

[WV Reefer]

21 hours ago, Lognor said:

I've been battling some sort of algae issue for weeks.  It's all over the sandbed and glass.  I clean the glass and it comes off like green dust.  I stir up the sand and it comes back within hours.  I vacuum and do a water change it's back the next day.  At first I thought it was diatoms, so cut down my feeding and added phosban to my filtration.  No noticeable change.  Next, after turning the blues down and whites way up I realized it was a bright green color making me thing it was cyano.  I got chemiclean and started treating that.  After 48 hours, the glass is clean and the water looks crystal clear.  The sand looks much better, growth is way lower/slower.  I do the requisite water change and put my filtration media back in.  Within a day I can tell it's starting to spread again.  I do chemiclean treatments two more times.  The second time, there's small improvement, but not gone.  The third treatment appears to have no affect.  I restore the normal filtration media, do a water change and wait to see what happens.  3 days later, it's growing at a fast rate and spreading to the glass again.  I bought all new Salifert test kits and followed the instructions to the letter using a stop watch to be precise.  (previously I was using API kits and not being as precise, so prior measurements are mostly useless at this point)

 

My parameters are:

Calcium - 465

Alkalinity - 6.6 dkh

Ammonia - 0

Nitrite - 0

Phosphate - .03

PH - 8.2

Nitrate - 20

 

My feeding consists of 1 cube of frozen spirulina (strained) daily and 1 cube of frozen mysis (strained) every other day for corals.  

 

I'm running a coralife biocube 29.  Nanobox retro LED kit, Intank media kit with chemipure elite, purigen, phosban, and filter floss.  I do weekly water changes of about 4g, but have changed out 6g 3 times in the past 2 weeks.  I have 4 fish, lps, sps, cuc, etc.  You can see my journal/profile for the full list of inhabitants.

 

Clearly my Alkalinity is low and nitrates are high.  I just tested that last night, so I have not researched how best to address those yet. 

 

Am I still dealing with cyano at this point?  With the nitrates so high is that what is feeding the cyano or is it a byproduct of the cyano?  What the heck do I do next to get this under control.  I could really use some advice.   Thanks in advance to all the dedicated reefers who are sure chime in.

 

 

 

Lots of good suggestions in here so far and I will double down on the food issue: You are feeding way too much. I would quit feeding the corals completely for now until you achieve the proper balance.  

 

 

 

 

[Lognor]

6 hours ago, WV Reefer said:

 

Lots of good suggestions in here so far and I will double down on the food issue: You are feeding way too much. I would quit feeding the corals completely for now until you achieve the proper balance.  

 

 

 

 

Changing feeding to half cube of mysis daily.  I did a 4g water change tonight and vacuumed the sand bed. Im going to check levels later tonight once everything settles down.  I’m going to do water changes twice a week until nitrates are down and algae gets better. 

 

I appreciate the the feedback from everyone. Not panicking like I would have in the past. I know it’ll get back on track. 

[Lognor]

This algae issue is driving me nuts.  I can't get it locked down.  The first dose of chmeiclean a couple of weeks ago worked great.  I thought for sure I was on the road to recovery, but since the first couple of doses, it's now laughing at me.  I tried one more round this past weekend and it wasn't even affected by it.  I've been doing large water changes twice a week to help with it and my parameter issues (alk low, nitrates high).  I haven't been home much the past 3 days so I haven't taken a new reading on Alk, but Nitrates were still at 20 a couple of days ago.  Feeding is down to half a cube froze mysis once a day.  The food is thawed and then strained to remove all the potential additives in the frozen matter.  I'm running chemipure elite, purigen, phosban, and filter floss.  

Today I decided to go lights out for 24 hours to see if that has any impact.  It's clearly not cyano since it's not affected by the chemiclean treatments.  I'm trying to reduce silicates by using the phosban, but that's not having an impact, so it's no dinos.  So hopefully I see something with the lights out.  If that has any affect then I know is't something photosynthetic. 

 

 

Not sure what to do next, I just don't want it to turn into something worse or become unmanageable.

[Lognor]

It's been almost 2 months with this algae issue and I can't figure out what it is.  In addition to multiple chemiclean treatments, I've gone lights out twice, once for 48 hours, once for 72.  The algae is gone after the lights out period but comes right back within a day or two.  After vacuuming, it's back the next day. 

 

In addition to the steps mentioned above, I've done the following things to improve tank health and stability.

• Two weeks ago I installed an RODI unit, dumped all my existing water and started making my own (0 TDS). 
• This past weekend I switched salt from Instant Ocean to Red Sea Coral Pro and did my first water change with the new mix. 
• I've switched all my test kits to Salifert and am following instructions to the letter. 
  • Alk is low, 6.1-6.9.  I've been adding seachem reef carbonate every couple of days.  If I don't add each day, it drops back down.  (I'm starting to look into dosing)
  • Phosphate is high, 0.25
  • Nitrates are high, 25
  • 
• I'm planning on doing 4g water changes twice a week, changing filter floss every couple of days, and replacing Phosguard weekly.

I'm hoping that better water and salt are going to help with some of the parameters, but I doubt that it's the root cause or the complete solution.  Everything in the tank looks to be happy and healthy.  The LPS are growing like crazy.  The SPS are doing good as well.  The only casualty I've had in the past few weeks is a Yuma mushroom that shrunk and disappeared after the 3 day lights out event.  It was doing fine for the few weeks I had it before then.

 

Looking for some more advice on what to look at/work on/try.

 

Thanks

[xthunt]

Do you have a closer picture of the algae?

[Garf]

Are you no longer feeding spirulina? You had originally stated you were feeding 1 cube of mysis every other day. Now it is 1/2 cube every day, no change. Are you target feeding the corals the mysis? How much of that 1/2 are the clown and firefish eating? What is you CUC like? Possible you had some die off that started the spike in nitrate/algae?

 

[ef4life]

Do you vacuum the sand when you do the water changes?

[Lognor]

2 hours ago, ef4life said:

Do you vacuum the sand when you do the water changes?

Yes, I thoroughly vacuum the sandbed every week.

 

3 hours ago, Garf said:

Are you no longer feeding spirulina? You had originally stated you were feeding 1 cube of mysis every other day. Now it is 1/2 cube every day, no change. Are you target feeding the corals the mysis? How much of that 1/2 are the clown and firefish eating? What is you CUC like? Possible you had some die off that started the spike in nitrate/algae?

 

I feed spirulina once or twice a week, half cube strained.  I feed mysis 1/2 cube each day to the clowns, firefish, and wrasse.  I feed an additional 1/2 cube of mysis twice a week to the corals (Acan’s, Duncan’s, RFA, plate corals).   For CUC I have 4 nessarius, 6-8 crabs (blue, red, scarlet), trochus snails, a stream snails, turbo snails, sand sifting star. I’ve had turbos die on me, but the nessarius are on them almost immediately.  It’s something that is possible, but not certain.  

 

I’ll work on a closer pic when I get a chance. I have one on my phone. 

[WV Reefer]

12 minutes ago, Lognor said:

Yes, I thoroughly vacuum the sandbed every week.

 

I feed spirulina once or twice a week, half cube strained.  I feed mysis 1/2 cube each day to the clowns, firefish, and wrasse.  I feed an additional 1/2 cube of mysis twice a week to the corals (Acan’s, Duncan’s, RFA, plate corals).   For CUC I have 4 nessarius, 6-8 crabs (blue, red, scarlet), trochus snails, a stream snails, turbo snails, sand sifting star. I’ve had turbos die on me, but the nessarius are on them almost immediately.  It’s something that is possible, but not certain.  

 

I’ll work on a closer pic when I get a chance. I have one on my phone. 

 

How about not feeding the corals? See if you see a difference. (It still seems like a lot of food to me.) 

[Lognor]

10 minutes ago, WV Reefer said:

 

How about not feeding the corals? See if you see a difference. (It still seems like a lot of food to me.) 

Hey, I’m game for anything. I’ll give it a shot.  I did that for a few weeks and didn’t see a change so I started feeding them again. I was wondering if the high phosphate and low alkalinity are also contributing. 

[Tamberav]

I vaccume my sand but it still gets nasty. Sometimes I suck it all out and strain it in old tank water and replace. The water I dump is brown...yuck. I also feed heavily so ya.

 

Careful with phosguard...you strip po4 too fast and your corals will get pissed or recede real fast. 

[Lognor]

15 hours ago, xthunt said:

Do you have a closer picture of the algae?

[iaredean]

I’ve been following this thread as I have the same issue in my Biocube 32. It is extremely frustrating!!

[mcarroll]

I think it's a new tank that's a little over stocked (especially for it's maturity level). 

 

I also suspect the spirulina cubes (actually Spiruline Brine Shrimp?) might be a side-cause.

 

Nutrient levels look good.

 

But alkalinity levels need to be moderated -- either by dosing or by some water changes. 

 

Keep alk over 7 dKh between water changes or doses.  Corals don't look stressed yet, but they will be sooner or later.  Dose to a higher level for "reserve capacity".  You can safely dose alkalinity up as high as 10-11 dKh to make that happen (or even higher, but probably not needed) with no side-effects.  To start with I'd use baking soda to dose up to 7 dKh one day, then dose again up to 8 dKh the second day.  Then test and dose every day as needed to keep the level at 8 dKh.  (It's possible you won't need to dose every time you test.....dose according to your test results.  Eventually you should see the trend in your dose amounts and you'll be able to stop testing every day.  Sometimes you will get your trend figured out in a few days, sometimes it takes a week or so.)

 

Mix 1/2 cup of salt mix per gallon of RODI and you should end up with 1.025 s.g.  That should be pretty standard. 

 

If the store's s.g. is low, then they aren't using enough mix.  (No mystery.)  Not enough mix and none of the parameters will reach the correct concentration.   

 

Also, don't over-mix or do anything "extra" with your mixing if you decide to DIY - just use it once the water is clear from the salt dissolving.

 

Seems like your CUC is undersized and they should be doing most of the work.  What do you have in there currently?

 

I see what looks like decent coraline algae growth (which is good), but zero green hair or cyano....which is bad since they should be pretty normal. 

 

Did you start with dead rock or live rock?   I think that may be part of the problem with the weird kinds of algae growing, tho seems like the tank would have gotten some inoculations from your coral additions by now.  Guessing that's where the coraline came from...

 

Any thoughts on why no green hair algae in particular?

 

I would lay off the media basket contents, the spirulina food and the coral food all for at least a few months.

 

Increase your CUC.  Seems like a small pack of Ceriths or Nerites would be the best start.  If you can't get those, then get what you can -- just increase the numbers by small amounts every week or every other week untill you can see them making a difference.  Once you see them making a difference, then don't add any more for a month or so to see how they do -- you may or may not need to add more at this stage.

[Lognor]

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I think it's a new tank that's a little over stocked (especially for it's maturity level). 

 

I also suspect the spirulina cubes (actually Spiruline Brine Shrimp?) might be a side-cause.

 

Nutrient levels look good.

 

But alkalinity levels need to be moderated -- either by dosing or by some water changes. 

 

Keep alk over 7 dKh between water changes or doses.  Corals don't look stressed yet, but they will be sooner or later.  Dose to a higher level for "reserve capacity".  You can safely dose alkalinity up as high as 10-11 dKh to make that happen (or even higher, but probably not needed) with no side-effects.  To start with I'd use baking soda to dose up to 7 dKh one day, then dose again up to 8 dKh the second day.  Then test and dose every day as needed to keep the level at 8 dKh.  (It's possible you won't need to dose every time you test.....dose according to your test results.  Eventually you should see the trend in your dose amounts and you'll be able to stop testing every day.  Sometimes you will get your trend figured out in a few days, sometimes it takes a week or so.)

 

Mix 1/2 cup of salt mix per gallon of RODI and you should end up with 1.025 s.g.  That should be pretty standard. 

 

If the store's s.g. is low, then they aren't using enough mix.  (No mystery.)  Not enough mix and none of the parameters will reach the correct concentration.   

 

Also, don't over-mix or do anything "extra" with your mixing if you decide to DIY - just use it once the water is clear from the salt dissolving.

 

Seems like your CUC is undersized and they should be doing most of the work.  What do you have in there currently?

 

I see what looks like decent coraline algae growth (which is good), but zero green hair or cyano....which is bad since they should be pretty normal. 

 

Did you start with dead rock or live rock?   I think that may be part of the problem with the weird kinds of algae growing, tho seems like the tank would have gotten some inoculations from your coral additions by now.  Guessing that's where the coraline came from...

 

Any thoughts on why no green hair algae in particular?

 

I would lay off the media basket contents, the spirulina food and the coral food all for at least a few months.

 

Increase your CUC.  Seems like a small pack of Ceriths or Nerites would be the best start.  If you can't get those, then get what you can -- just increase the numbers by small amounts every week or every other week untill you can see them making a difference.  Once you see them making a difference, then don't add any more for a month or so to see how they do -- you may or may not need to add more at this stage.

Thanks for all of the suggestions.  

 

While my tank isn't very old, it has been up and running for 18 months at this point.  I started with two pieces of live rock and two pieces of dry.  I've had all the usual maturing, ugly tank type stuff, along with other self inflicted issues mostly caused by not testing properly early on.  I've stopped feeding coral foods and the spirulina cubes.  I've reduced the mysis to half a cube, usually strained.  The new water and salt mix is too new to have any significant impact yet as it has only been a week.  I'm going to be changing 4g twice a week for another few weeks.  I'm also adding Seachem Reef Carbonate to bring alkalinity up.  Eventually I expect the new salt to bring it up higher, and then i'll be able to determine regular dosing needs from there.

 

I'll take a look at the CUC.  I added a number of snails and crabs last month, but I'm sure there is room for more.  I've lost actual count of how many of each there are, but I'll look at that for sure.

 

[Lognor]

Well, it's been weeks since my last post and there is no change in the algae situation.  I'm in the same place I've been in for months.  I've got this green dust like algae on the sand bed and on the glass.  I have to clean the glass once a day.  I'm vacuuming the sand twice a week when I do water changes.  Everything looks good after a water change, but then comes back the next day.  Parameters are all looking ok.  My Alk is normal but is requiring a dose of reef carbonate every few days.  Still working on what the long term dosing will need to be especially once I go back to changing water only once a week.  Corals and inhabitants are all doing well.

 

Ca - 440

Alk - 8.1

Nitrate - 10

Phos - .025

Ph - 8.2

Mg - 1500

 

In the past few weeks I added some cerith and nerite snails.  I've gone back to chemipure blue instead of separate elite and purigen along with filter floss and a phosphate pad.

 

I've done so much reading and digging, I've confused the shit out myself.  Am I dealing with Dino's or Diatoms, or is it someone entirely different?  I've kept feeding down to a half cube of mysis, and not putting anything else in the tank.  The only thing I haven't done is try putting it under a microscope to see if that tells me anything.

[SeaFurn]

I know just how frustrating it can be. 

 

How long is your photoperiod?

 

Do you have much microfauna in your tank? Copepods?

 

Have you tried not doing water changes and notice how that affects the algae in the tank? 

 

Continue to watch the amount you are feeding and you might try skipping the water changes altogether for a bit (like to every other week). I’d also add copepods and dose live phyto (to feed the copepods and build some biodiversity). That’s helped greatly with my tank. 

 

[Garf]

Those params look good. Try and keep them stable for a while and see what happens. The algae doesn't look awful, its a bright green, doesn't look like it is covering your rocks (in the pics from last month) Are you still feeding 1/2 cube of mysis a day? And are you rinsing it?

 

I wouldn't use too many products to manage nutrients, they are coming from somewhere, and you may be treating the symptom instead of the cause. What is your lighting schedule like?  Is the algae still going away during lights out? If you were to reduce your filtration to just the rocks, filter floss or pad and carbon, what do you think would happen to your nutrients? It has been 4 weeks since your alk was fluctuating, based on your chart.  And you swapped to a new salt mix with alk measuring what, 10-11? 

 

It might be something you just need to work through with a bit of time and stable params.