A sad start to a new tank

[MrsPeet15]

31 minutes ago, Jellyingabout said:

Out of interest what bleach was used? perhaps it contained additives

Just bleach from the supermarket could easily check the label if there’s anything I should be looking for? 

[Oldsalt01]

The label should read:

Sodium Hypochlorite.... 6.0%

Other ingredients........ 94.0%

 

There should be no scents or other additives. 

[MrsPeet15]

Ah thanks guys, so glad for all of the help and advice I really really am. It might sound selfish but I wouldn’t dare put anything into anyone else’s tank now incase it was posioned and I dont have a QT set up and available right away - foolishly I didn’t see anything like this coming. Based off everyone’s reccomendations and advice my plan of attack is as follows (its half midnight here so can’t start anything until the morning )

- test in the morning in natural daylight JUST incase

- 100% water change - the stuff that is looking almost salvageable I am convinced is not and will die but is just hardy enough it had lived out the last 24 hours - no fish inverts,LPS or CUC have survived

- keep water changing and testing until I see a cycle start. If this takes longer than a week assume the live rock and substrate is a no go, pull everything and start curing all over, replace All substrate and start again. This might sound stupid but I really want to leave this as a last resort, all my livestock won’t suffer anymore for it as I think it will be dead by morning, so am I being stupid just clinging on to that last shred of hope that water changes *might* right it?

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, Jellyingabout said:

Hypochlorite (bleach in solution) is a key reagent in most ammonia test kits, so it will screw up your equilibrium making any test results inaccurate. Whether it artifically increases or reduces the result depends on the type of kit.

 

I figured bleach would alter any results.

[CarolinaShoreReef]

3 hours ago, Jellyingabout said:

Bleach kills by denaturing proteins, if the concentration is too low it won't do it, but once your over the right concentration proteins start getting messed up. Theres not much of a middle ground. Cells can react to dentaturing agents with heat shock proteins, but reef organisms are particularly poor... 

What you know about chaotropes lol. Sounds like you’ve taken a biochem class or a few?

[Clown79]

100% water change will not effect anything negatively.

 

Most bacteria lives on and within hard surfaces like rocks, not water.

 

Ppl do 100% waterchanges and washing sand on pico's regularly.

 

You can try to qt anything still alive in a bucket, you don't need another tank.

 

If it was me, I'd start from scratch. I'm overly cautious.

 

Wash all sand very, very well. Tap water is fine with a final rinse in RODI and Prime. You can soak it in rodi and Prime if you want after washing it to be safe.

 

Wash all equipment adding prime

 

Rocks- either do many soakings and dry out or start fresh- liverock will be faster.

 

Clean out the tank well.

 

I'm so sorry this happened.

 

[Jellyingabout]

5 hours ago, CarolinaShoreReef said:

What you know about chaotropes lol. Sounds like you’ve taken a biochem class or a few?

A few. I have degree in Marine Biology, heavy on the molecular biology  I knew i'd use it one day at least a little lol

[MrsPeet15]

10 hours ago, Jellyingabout said:

Hypochlorite (bleach in solution) is a key reagent in most ammonia test kits, so it will screw up your equilibrium making any test results inaccurate. Whether it artifically increases or reduces the result depends on the type of kit.

 

Ok so I’ve tested ammonia this morning and I *think* I have an ammonia reading. It’s one of those stupid salifert kits where the ammonia test always comes back cloudy. Yesterday it was cloudy white and today I’m certain it has an orange tinge to it. I’m also getting very small trace readings of nitrate and nitrite. Would you happen to know how bleach might affect the reading on a salifert ammonia kit at all? 

My skimmer pulled out slightly dirty liquid overnight as opposed to the clear water it’s been drawing out since Saturday, can I assume this might mean there’s something alive in the tank on a bacterial level from this? 

 

2 hours ago, Jellyingabout said:

A few. I have degree in Marine Biology, heavy on the molecular biology  I knew i'd use it one day at least a little lol

Trust me right now your knowledge on such things is hugely appreciated!

[MrsPeet15]

7 hours ago, Clown79 said:

100% water change will not effect anything negatively.

 

Most bacteria lives on and within hard surfaces like rocks, not water.

 

Ppl do 100% waterchanges and washing sand on pico's regularly.

 

You can try to qt anything still alive in a bucket, you don't need another tank.

 

If it was me, I'd start from scratch. I'm overly cautious.

 

Wash all sand very, very well. Tap water is fine with a final rinse in RODI and Prime. You can soak it in rodi and Prime if you want after washing it to be safe.

 

Wash all equipment adding prime

 

Rocks- either do many soakings and dry out or start fresh- liverock will be faster.

 

Clean out the tank well.

 

I'm so sorry this happened.

 

Clown so am I. I’m just sorry for all of the little lives that have been lost throughout this complete nightmare. I’m going to head to the LFS today if they have any prime in stock. I can’t oull anything out of my tank today I don’t think, but would dosing prime into the tank be better than doing nothing at all today? 

[MrsPeet15]

Also, would a chlorine test strip indicate wether there was any bleach in the tank?

[CarolinaShoreReef]

4 hours ago, Jellyingabout said:

A few. I have degree in Marine Biology, heavy on the molecular biology  I knew i'd use it one day at least a little lol

That’s awesome! 

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, MrsPeet15 said:

Clown so am I. I’m just sorry for all of the little lives that have been lost throughout this complete nightmare. I’m going to head to the LFS today if they have any prime in stock. I can’t oull anything out of my tank today I don’t think, but would dosing prime into the tank be better than doing nothing at all today? 

Ya, prime shouldn't effect anything negatively. 

 

I know you feel horrible but it wasn't intentional. You weren't neglectful.

 

It's a shame the loss but it's also sad for you, having to go through all this.

[Grom]

Just out of curiosity are you running carbon or any other chemical media. If not I'd drop a bag of carbon in the tank, if nothing else it will remove the fish tank smell from your living room

[Jellyingabout]

I'm pretty sure that the salifert test kits use Nesslers reagent, so any hypochloride would interfer giving a false negative. 

[Jellyingabout]

test it out by dipping a cotton swab of bleach into your completed orange test solution. The bleach may displace even more reagent and make the solution less orange. Although that just me guessing as i'm not super familiar with the reaction.

[MrsPeet15]

1 hour ago, Grom said:

Just out of curiosity are you running carbon or any other chemical media. If not I'd drop a bag of carbon in the tank, if nothing else it will remove the fish tank smell from your living room

Hi Grom, no just a skimmer, the smell has gone today!

[MrsPeet15]

Ok so, I’ve just been out for the afternoon gathering anyThing I think is of any use to my current situation. I managed to grab some chlorine testing strips from a local hot tub supplier (the guys face was a picture when I told him I was testing a marine tank with it!) these also conveniently teat for alkalinity and PH. I have attached pictures of the results which to me look good enough - no chlorine, between 180-240 ppm alkalinity and 8.4 PH though I am sure someone will be quick to let me know if these aren’t acceptable, please do shout up if not!

I went into our nearest LFS which I normally don’t use, some of the staff are not very pleasant at all. I ended up speaking to the owner who was shocked about what has happened and very kind and understanding. He plus oned on the prime but also reccomended I try running Arcadia Polyfilter. He used it last year when someone threw a cup of unknown substance in one of their display tanks killing most of their stock ? I don’t know if anyone has used this before but it’s very interesting, it filters out and purifies water but rather cleverly tells you what it has filtered out using a colour scale - blue is copper, ammonia green, iron orange, aluminium red, lead yellow and heavy organically are black. I figured it was worth a try and probably a useful thing to have in my kit should I have any issues like this again.

Now, I bought prime, and I also bought seachem’s ammonia test kit as im

nearly our if salifert, I hate it and it will work if I dose prime. My free ammonia is literally zero. I’ve alsi come home to find my Zoas are *trying* to open up - I can see a little fluorescent green now. Also my skimmer has finally bedded in and is skimming properly. I just wanted to check with you fine folks that putting prime in despite my water eating zero for chlorine and ammonia is still a good idea? Please let me know if the pics don’t show up  

[Clown79]

18 minutes ago, MrsPeet15 said:

Ok so, I’ve just been out for the afternoon gathering anyThing I think is of any use to my current situation. I managed to grab some chlorine testing strips from a local hot tub supplier (the guys face was a picture when I told him I was testing a marine tank with it!) these also conveniently teat for alkalinity and PH. I have attached pictures of the results which to me look good enough - no chlorine, between 180-240 ppm alkalinity and 8.4 PH though I am sure someone will be quick to let me know if these aren’t acceptable, please do shout up if not!

I went into our nearest LFS which I normally don’t use, some of the staff are not very pleasant at all. I ended up speaking to the owner who was shocked about what has happened and very kind and understanding. He plus oned on the prime but also reccomended I try running Arcadia Polyfilter. He used it last year when someone threw a cup of unknown substance in one of their display tanks killing most of their stock ? I don’t know if anyone has used this before but it’s very interesting, it filters out and purifies water but rather cleverly tells you what it has filtered out using a colour scale - blue is copper, ammonia green, iron orange, aluminium red, lead yellow and heavy organically are black. I figured it was worth a try and probably a useful thing to have in my kit should I have any issues like this again.

Now, I bought prime, and I also bought seachem’s ammonia test kit as im

nearly our if salifert, I hate it and it will work if I dose prime. My free ammonia is literally zero. I’ve alsi come home to find my Zoas are *trying* to open up - I can see a little fluorescent green now. Also my skimmer has finally bedded in and is skimming properly. I just wanted to check with you fine folks that putting prime in despite my water eating zero for chlorine and ammonia is still a good idea? Please let me know if the pics don’t show up  

I contacted a company regarding chlorine test kits. The ones for pools/hot tubs apparently do not work with salt water.

 

There are kits available on brs but reviews claim none of them are reliable. Ppl test their tap water and it reads 0 chlorine and 0 chloramines. 

 

Not sure how accurate test result will be.

 

 

[MrsPeet15]

26 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I contacted a company regarding chlorine test kits. The ones for pools/hot tubs apparently do not work with salt water.

 

There are kits available on brs but reviews claim none of them are reliable. Ppl test their tap water and it reads 0 chlorine and 0 chloramines. 

 

Not sure how accurate test result will be.

 

 

Ah man, I did wonder but figured it was worth a try at the time given the desperation of the situation. What do you reckon I should do with regards to the prime, give it a go anyway? 

[Jellyingabout]

Test kits for fresh water wont work on salt water as there are far to many ions in salt water. Even if you found a salt water chlorine kit its not going to be a world of help as bleach isn't straight chlorine, its hypochlorite, which behaves differently especially in basic (as in alkali) environment such as a marine tank. Hypochlorite will convert to chlorine in an acid environment though, but dropping your pH is not an option.

 

I think a good big water change and then regular water changes for a few days is all you can do whilst treating with a water conditioner such as prime. Don't trust your ammonia kits until a few big water changes, but i would never trust them much anyway, most the test kits for ammonia nitrite and nitrate are pretty bollocks. The margines on them are massive. healthy crittters is a much better indication of healthy water. If your zoas are improving chances are your water is.

 

For example those salifert test kits using Nesslers reagent. Nesslers method suffers interferance from the chloride in saltwater with up to 30% error. So those old test kits help you figure out if your levels are through the roof like 10X plus but the numbers dont mean much. 

[MrsPeet15]

Just now, Jellyingabout said:

Test kits for fresh water wont work on salt water as there are far to many ions in salt water. Even if you found a salt water chlorine kit its not going to be a world of help as bleach isn't straight chlorine, its hypochlorite, which behaves differently especially in basic (as in alkali) environment such as a marine tank. Hypochlorite will convert to chlorine in an acid environment though, but dropping your pH is not an option.

 

I think a good big water change and then regular water changes for a few days is all you can do whilst treating with a water conditioner such as prime. Don't trust your ammonia kits until a few big water changes, but i would never trust them much anyway, most the test kits for ammonia nitrite and nitrate are pretty bollocks. The margines on them are massive. healthy crittters is a much better indication of healthy water. If your zoas are improving chances are your water is.

 

For example those salifert test kits using Nesslers reagent. Nesslers method suffers interferance from the chloride in saltwater with up to 30% error. So those old test kits help you figure out if your levels are through the roof like 10X plus but the numbers dont mean much. 

Ok that’s fantastic information, thanks very much. I have the prime here and ready to go should I need it, but I’m sort of tempted to leave it tonight and see how the corals look in the morning. The only things left in the tank now are a large mushroom coral which is shedding, I’m assuming in a desperate attempt to right itself, those zoas which do look like they’re starting to improve and a few candy canes which have major tissue recession but still have some flesh on them. I mean putting prime in now certainly can’t make things any worse overall, and I’m guessing it won’t do any harm to dose just incase.

[Jellyingabout]

Treating with prime is not going to do any harm, i would just chuck it in. Perhaps a half dose just out of curiosity, if things improve top up to a full dose. May shed some light on whats going on. But do a water change first rinsing out your filter media. You don't want to treat with prime only for your filters to leach whatever toxin is in the tank back out in a couple of hours.

 

Good luck!!

[MrsPeet15]

1 minute ago, Jellyingabout said:

Treating with prime is not going to do any harm, i would just chuck it in. Perhaps a half dose just out of curiosity, if things improve top up to a full dose. May shed some light on whats going on. But do a water change first rinsing out your filter media. You don't want to treat with prime only for your filters to leach whatever toxin is in the tank back out in a couple of hours.

 

Good luck!!

No filter media, just the protein skimmer, do I need to be prepared for that going mental? I’ll start with a half dose as a full one is reccomended for 200l according to the packet, im at 100 so make sense and see how I go from there.

 

I will update again and let you all know how it’s going over the next few days. Hopefully if god forbid this happens to anyone else this thread will help someone else too. I just wanted to say a huge thank you to you all for your amazing advice, kind words and patience. This really is the best forum on the web thanks to its users. You guys are all gems. 

[Jellyingabout]

11 minutes ago, MrsPeet15 said:

No filter media, just the protein skimmer, do I need to be prepared for that going mental? I’ll start with a half dose as a full one is reccomended for 200l according to the packet, im at 100 so make sense and see how I go from there.

 

I will update again and let you all know how it’s going over the next few days. Hopefully if god forbid this happens to anyone else this thread will help someone else too. I just wanted to say a huge thank you to you all for your amazing advice, kind words and patience. This really is the best forum on the web thanks to its users. You guys are all gems. 

Don't worry bout the skimmer, even if it goes mental its done its job. If it overflows in the night its still whipped up the proteins into a nice emulsion which will just be scum in your water. Unsightly but inert.

[MrsPeet15]

8 minutes ago, Jellyingabout said:

Don't worry bout the skimmer, even if it goes mental its done its job. If it overflows in the night its still whipped up the proteins into a nice emulsion which will just be scum in your water. Unsightly but inert.

Awesome thanks again!