Help choosing substrate?

[anniebanana267]

Hello everyone, 

I’m upgrading from my 15 gallon column tank to a 36 gallon. In my 15 gallon I had live aragonite sand, but I could never clean the sand correctly and it got orange and brown and truly disgusting looking. It was really difficult to clean. I’ve decided I think I’m going to try the crushed coral this time but I need some help with my decision. 

#1, I need to know if I’m making the right decision by getting the crushed coral instead of the sand. If im making a bad decision by switching to crushed coral, is there an easier way to clean the sand without it going absolutely everywhere, clouding your tank, and hiding in between the rock? I tried a siphoner, I tried a net, I even tried grabbing it with my bare hands. Nothing seemed to work. The pellets just stayed there or hid deeper into the sand. They’re 1mm sinking pellets if that helps.

#2, I’m wondering which of these crushed corals are better, regardless of their price or value for the price. Just quality. 

First Option // Second Option

#3 Any advice for switching and upgrading is much appreciated!! Thanks in advance 

 

[Segalplayer]

What is in your 15 gal rn and what are your plans for the 36?

[anniebanana267]

22 hours ago, Segalplayer said:

What is in your 15 gal rn and what are your plans for the 36?

my 15 gallon column currently has 2 stomatella snails, a clownfish, a chromis, and a damselfish. 425 gph hydor koralia powerhead, aqueon 10 filter (I know it's completely horrible, it's what it came with and I haven't been able to upgrade so I'm trying to manage for now). 100 watt heater. 15 lbs live aragonite sand, appx 18 lbs live reef rock. 

Plans for the 36 gallon are more reef rock, another 100 watt heater to total 200 watts, another 425 gph hydor koralia powerhead, and I wanna look into getting a yellow clown goby, Mandarin fish, sexy shrimp, pipefish, sunburst anthias, and a pom pom crab. of course not all, but those are my interests. and I'm going to get coral in the future, like 6 months to a year from now. 

[Jellyingabout]

If you can't keep sand clean chances are you'll struggle to keep crushed coral clean.

If your already siphoning your sand then a coupkle more things may help.

-Turn the substrate over with some good sand cleaning CUC, look at a handful of cerinth snails and maybe a goby and pistol shrimp pair (although your damsel fishes may make that difficult). 

-Improve your circulation aiming for better undertow. Ideally a pellet should not sit on the sand bed and rot but roll along it and then back into the water column. Difficult in smaller tanks without blasting your coral around, but with clever rock work etc it is possible. Gives your filters a better chance of picking up uneaten food and your fish more chance of catching it.

 

Would be difficult to say without photos but orange and brown sand sound to me like perhaps a dino problem, they love to cling to clean white sand. How are your nutrient levels? Whats your filteration system like?

 

[NGnanoreef]

Be careful with the yellow goby. If you don't have a lid they will jump.

 

[anniebanana267]

44 minutes ago, NGnanoreef said:

Be careful with the yellow goby. If you don't have a lid they will jump.

 

oh wow. i didn't know that about them. thankfully I do have a lid ? thank you!

[anniebanana267]

56 minutes ago, Jellyingabout said:

If you can't keep sand clean chances are you'll struggle to keep crushed coral clean.

If your already siphoning your sand then a coupkle more things may help.

-Turn the substrate over with some good sand cleaning CUC, look at a handful of cerinth snails and maybe a goby and pistol shrimp pair (although your damsel fishes may make that difficult). 

-Improve your circulation aiming for better undertow. Ideally a pellet should not sit on the sand bed and rot but roll along it and then back into the water column. Difficult in smaller tanks without blasting your coral around, but with clever rock work etc it is possible. Gives your filters a better chance of picking up uneaten food and your fish more chance of catching it.

 

Would be difficult to say without photos but orange and brown sand sound to me like perhaps a dino problem, they love to cling to clean white sand. How are your nutrient levels? Whats your filteration system like?

 

I don't have a picture because I just finished mixing the sand to kind of put the orange part to the bottom. it's the only thing that works at the moment. I'm not sure what you mean by nutrient levels though. as far as filter, I have an Aqueon 10 and 18 lbs live reef rock. 425 gph hydor koralia powerhead aiming down but it's very high up. thank you, I'll try that with my new tank.

[Kellie in CA]

I tried crushed coral once, never again. Generally algae grows on the top of the sand, and stirring it will make it go away. But crushed coral is very porous and algae literally attaches to the surface of every little piece. It always looked brown and dirty. 

[BustytheSnowMaam]

I've done both, and discovered I fare best when whatever substrate I choose isn't more than 1/2" or so deep.  Deeper than that and it turns into a trap/breeding ground for gunk and algae. Rinse before using and stir often after installation, and it should stay clean.

[Jellyingabout]

At the moment your CUC lacks anything that will get down into the sand so mixing the brown bit down is just prolongong the problem. 

By nutrients i mean nitrate and phosphate levels.

 

does it look anything like this? 

[anniebanana267]

12 hours ago, Jellyingabout said:

At the moment your CUC lacks anything that will get down into the sand so mixing the brown bit down is just prolongong the problem. 

By nutrients i mean nitrate and phosphate levels.

 

does it look anything like this? 

Got pics. Here’s what it looks like. It’s all over the sand and on the walls. 

Sorry to sound dumb, but what’s cuc?

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I’ve never tested the phosphate levels. How do you do that? I thought that was only for corals. My 15g tank is still cycling, it just finished ammonia and I’m by nitrite. 

Thanks so much for your help.

[Jellyingabout]

Yes definately diatoms, very common in newly cycled tanks. More common in tanks using tap water. If you get your tank balenced, it should clear up on its own. Don't mix the diatoms down into the sand, wash them out and remove them.

 

How do you mix up your water? what water? what salt?

 

CUC = clean up crew

 

[BustytheSnowMaam]

If you're still going through the ammonia cycle, then seeing some diatom bloom is normal (that's what that stuff is on the substrate).  You probably shouldn't have a fish in there yet.  

 

Here's what's happening:  your rock is (most likely) uncured- meaning it came out of the ocean and was stored somewhere, and the critters, macroalgae, etc on it started dying off.  Since you have a fish in there, there's fish poo too.  This waste breaks down into ammonia, which is toxic to fish, even in small amounts. 

 

Good bacteria builds up in the tank to help break this ammonia down.  It's called the ammonia cycle.  Gradually, as its levels build up, Nitrosomonas bacteria breaks down this ammonia into nitrites.  Your test kit will show that ammonia is down to 0 after the ammonia is broken down, however, you will still show nitrite and nitrate levels.  

 

Another "good" bacteria, Nitrobacter, then breaks down the nitrite into nitrate.  When this happens, your nitrite level will be at 0, but you will still show nitrate levels.  Nitrates aren't quite so toxic in very small amounts, and are used by macroalgae and corals to help them grow.  However, nitrate can also be a food source for nuisance algae, so you want to do weekly or bi-weekly water changes to export some of that nitrate.  You can also keep a macroalgae like chaetomorpha in a refugium, sump, or even an AquaClear hang-on-back filter to help absorb the nitrates so that nuisance algae doesn't have a food source.

 

Don't add more critters until your ammonia and nitrite are at 0 and your nitrate level is low.  Then your cycle will be complete and all will be right with your nano-world.  You do have to stir the sandbed and do water changes.  Also, start with a short photoperiod (don't leave the lights on too long) and gradually lengthen it to about 10 hours.  A long photoperiod will encourage algae.  

 

CUC= clean-up crew.  This consists of hermits, snails, and worms that help consume leftover food, algae, and poo.  They also stir the sandbed and generate visual amusement.  IME you'll want about 1 hermit for every 2 gallons and 1 snail per gallon.  I have the best luck with scarlet and blue-leg hermits and "conehead" or turbo snails.  

 

Do you know how to do water changes- topping off the water with freshwater and using a refractometer to make your own saltwater?  

 

 

 

[anniebanana267]

5 hours ago, Jellyingabout said:

Yes definately diatoms, very common in newly cycled tanks. More common in tanks using tap water. If you get your tank balenced, it should clear up on its own. Don't mix the diatoms down into the sand, wash them out and remove them.

 

How do you mix up your water? what water? what salt?

 

CUC = clean up crew

 

Yes I do use tap water. 

I use a small bucket that can carry 2 gallons at a time, mix salt in the measurements how the bag shows, then check and adjust with refractometer. Water = tap water, salt = instant ocean sea salt.

4 hours ago, tashayar said:

If you're still going through the ammonia cycle, then seeing some diatom bloom is normal (that's what that stuff is on the substrate).  You probably shouldn't have a fish in there yet.  

 

Here's what's happening:  your rock is (most likely) uncured- meaning it came out of the ocean and was stored somewhere, and the critters, macroalgae, etc on it started dying off.  Since you have a fish in there, there's fish poo too.  This waste breaks down into ammonia, which is toxic to fish, even in small amounts. 

 

Good bacteria builds up in the tank to help break this ammonia down.  It's called the ammonia cycle.  Gradually, as its levels build up, Nitrosomonas bacteria breaks down this ammonia into nitrites.  Your test kit will show that ammonia is down to 0 after the ammonia is broken down, however, you will still show nitrite and nitrate levels.  

 

Another "good" bacteria, Nitrobacter, then breaks down the nitrite into nitrate.  When this happens, your nitrite level will be at 0, but you will still show nitrate levels.  Nitrates aren't quite so toxic in very small amounts, and are used by macroalgae and corals to help them grow.  However, nitrate can also be a food source for nuisance algae, so you want to do weekly or bi-weekly water changes to export some of that nitrate.  You can also keep a macroalgae like chaetomorpha in a refugium, sump, or even an AquaClear hang-on-back filter to help absorb the nitrates so that nuisance algae doesn't have a food source.

 

Don't add more critters until your ammonia and nitrite are at 0 and your nitrate level is low.  Then your cycle will be complete and all will be right with your nano-world.  You do have to stir the sandbed and do water changes.  Also, start with a short photoperiod (don't leave the lights on too long) and gradually lengthen it to about 10 hours.  A long photoperiod will encourage algae.  

 

CUC= clean-up crew.  This consists of hermits, snails, and worms that help consume leftover food, algae, and poo.  They also stir the sandbed and generate visual amusement.  IME you'll want about 1 hermit for every 2 gallons and 1 snail per gallon.  I have the best luck with scarlet and blue-leg hermits and "conehead" or turbo snails.  

 

Do you know how to do water changes- topping off the water with freshwater and using a refractometer to make your own saltwater?  

 

I won’t add any more critters  i got those because my lfs said they were good for cycling tanks, and I didn’t know back then what I know now. It’s amazing what you can learn in 3 weeks. 

Im not sure what you mean by topping off with freshwater and making my own saltwater. 

I will definitely get snails when my cycle is done. I actually have a question about that, is the cycle for the water or the rocks? Because I’ll be transferring the rocks to my new 36 gallon but not the water because it’s orange and nasty.

as far as cycling, I’m at nitrite. I haven’t checked the number in a few days because if I check every day I’ll become more obsessed than I already am ? so I’ll check tomorrow. 

Please let me know about the cycling! I really hope I don’t have to re-cycle with my new tank. I was planning on transferring my fish tomorrow too. :/ 

thanks everyone for your help!!

 

p.s. what’s an okay nitrate level to have before needing to change, just for future knowledge? I’ll do routine water changes of course but I just want to know. 

[Jellyingabout]

17 hours ago, anniebanana267 said:

Yes I do use tap water. 

I use a small bucket that can carry 2 gallons at a time, mix salt in the measurements how the bag shows, then check and adjust with refractometer. Water = tap water, salt = instant ocean sea salt.

You didn't mention you use any water conditioner?

 

In the ocean the key nutrients needed by primary producers are nitrogen and phosphorus which mainly come in the form of nitrates and phosphates. Diatoms are excellent competitors for these nutrients however need silicates to form their frustrules (shells). This means that if silicates are in short supply other algae will out compete them for the nutrients. Using tap water allows diatoms to get that upper hand and so you tank gets covered in a brown gross film. In small amounts this is harmless however it can quickly get out of hand if you don't keep them under control and they begin to use up all the oxygen in your tank, called eutophication, making it difficult for coral and fish to thrive. (I would say your tank looks pretty close to this as your water is clearly dark with diatoms)

 

You can either hope to remove all nutrients and starve the diatoms, this will be very difficult if you're using tap water which had high background levels to begin with. Or you can starve the diatoms of silicates which is impossible if you are using tap water. Unfortunately you'll never be able to sustain a healthy reef using tap water. I would highly recommend one of those cheap RODI units from fleabay. Takes 5 minutes to plumb under your sink, any monkey could do it with a self tapping valve. You'll save a fortune in water conditioner and a life time in problems.

 

Safe nitrates are difficult to gauge, it depends on what you're keeping. I've seen research labs keeping stoney corals with nitrates as high as 50ppm round the clock. But their phosphates were on the floor and everything thrived. I've seen tanks with much lower levels die from eutrophication. Don't ask how high they can get, ask how low you can get them. 

[anniebanana267]

On 4/8/2018 at 2:53 PM, Jellyingabout said:

You didn't mention you use any water conditioner?

 

In the ocean the key nutrients needed by primary producers are nitrogen and phosphorus which mainly come in the form of nitrates and phosphates. Diatoms are excellent competitors for these nutrients however need silicates to form their frustrules (shells). This means that if silicates are in short supply other algae will out compete them for the nutrients. Using tap water allows diatoms to get that upper hand and so you tank gets covered in a brown gross film. In small amounts this is harmless however it can quickly get out of hand if you don't keep them under control and they begin to use up all the oxygen in your tank, called eutophication, making it difficult for coral and fish to thrive. (I would say your tank looks pretty close to this as your water is clearly dark with diatoms)

 

You can either hope to remove all nutrients and starve the diatoms, this will be very difficult if you're using tap water which had high background levels to begin with. Or you can starve the diatoms of silicates which is impossible if you are using tap water. Unfortunately you'll never be able to sustain a healthy reef using tap water. I would highly recommend one of those cheap RODI units from fleabay. Takes 5 minutes to plumb under your sink, any monkey could do it with a self tapping valve. You'll save a fortune in water conditioner and a life time in problems.

 

Safe nitrates are difficult to gauge, it depends on what you're keeping. I've seen research labs keeping stoney corals with nitrates as high as 50ppm round the clock. But their phosphates were on the floor and everything thrived. I've seen tanks with much lower levels die from eutrophication. Don't ask how high they can get, ask how low you can get them. 

As far as water conditioner, I have this Aqueon one that I used once and then I stopped because my lfs said it was only for freshwater. Is that true, or should I start using it again? If so, I’m assuming it would be any time I use my tap water, being water changes etc.

I’m definitely going to look into the RODI unit because I do have space under my sink and if it’s gonna help get rid of or at least lessen the nasty orange brown algae then it’s definitely worth it. But at least until I do, I’ll work with the water conditioner based on your reply.

Thank you so much for all your help!

[Jellyingabout]

Yes definitely use water conditioner, you can get them marketed towards salt water tanks if you look hard enough however the bottom line with reef tanks is you will never ever have a clean tank or healthy coral using tap water. The only successful "reef" aquariums with tap water are fish only systems and even then they're full of algae. The very best you'll ever get is some soft coral that slowly turn brown or dull. RO or RODI is a MUST for the hobby. 

Put it this way, if i could only have one in my tank i'd rather have access to RODI than liverock.

[anniebanana267]

5 hours ago, Jellyingabout said:

Yes definitely use water conditioner, you can get them marketed towards salt water tanks if you look hard enough however the bottom line with reef tanks is you will never ever have a clean tank or healthy coral using tap water. The only successful "reef" aquariums with tap water are fish only systems and even then they're full of algae. The very best you'll ever get is some soft coral that slowly turn brown or dull. RO or RODI is a MUST for the hobby. 

Put it this way, if i could only have one in my tank i'd rather have access to RODI than liverock.

I was aware that it couldn’t be tap water for coral, I was planning on buying jugs of purified water at my supermarket. But I’m starting to think that the cost of the jugs might outweigh the cost of the rodi system. 

As far as the water conditioner, would that one that I have be okay until I can find one specifically for saltwater?

i can’t thank you enough for all your help! 

[ajmckay]

I agree that what you have there are most likely diatoms.  I also agree with the posts that your flow likely isn't enough.  A column tank is a really difficult tank to use for saltwater because it's tough to have the correct flow without expensive wave maker pumps.  

 

0) Are you adding straight tap water to your aquarium?  If so I'm surprised everything isn't dead...  You MUST use a water conditioner like the one in your hand.  When using it as a dechlorinator it doesn't matter if the water is fresh water or salt water, your LFS told you wrong or you misunderstood.

 

1) What sand do you currently have?  Did you rinse it well before adding it?   If not I would scoop it all out and rinse it in a bucket until all the cloudiness is gone. This should make it so that when you stir up the sand in the tank it's not releasing fine particles everywhere and clouding the tank.

2) Your stocking plans for the 36g are very ambitious - I would re-visit the stocking plan.  Also what are the dimensions?  I'm thinking another Koralia 425 will not be enough.  I would recommend something like a Jebao RW-4.  This is a lower cost controllable DC pump vs. an always on AC pump.

3) Crushed coral is fine, but without the discipline to clean it frequently it has the ability to trap MORE detritus.  Those pellets that sink to the bottom? They'll sink into cracks where it will be more difficult for your snails and such to reach.  At least with sand detritus will collect on top for easier removal.  I used to run the oolitic (very fine) sand which looks great, but overall I'm more a fan of the larger grain sand.  My favorite so far is the CaribSea special grade.  I've heard good things about reef flakes also if you can find them.

4) If you want a good experience with a reef tank then you need an RO/DI filter.  I tried tap and store bought reverse osmosis water and neither really worked.  Switching to making my own RO water was a major factor in my enjoyment of the hobby.   If you're doing a FOWLR (fish only with live rock) you can get away with using tap water more easily but there are still some risks with that as well as a need to be on a good maintenance routine.

5) Get some more snails.  The stomatella are fine but you can add more.  Sparing use of nassarius snails to stir up the sand, and a variety of snails for the glass/rock.  I would avoid anything too exotic at this stage (like urchins/stars). 

 

Good luck, take it slow. 

[Jellyingabout]

5 hours ago, anniebanana267 said:

I was aware that it couldn’t be tap water for coral, I was planning on buying jugs of purified water at my supermarket. But I’m starting to think that the cost of the jugs might outweigh the cost of the rodi system. 

As far as the water conditioner, would that one that I have be okay until I can find one specifically for saltwater?

i can’t thank you enough for all your help! 

yes it should be fine although it may have buffers in it for pH that won't be aimed at reef pH. But thats a very small issue compared to chlorine. use it until you can get your hands on prime (one for marine waters)

 

there is one more option other than rodi units or bought water, and thats natural sea water, if you live anywhere near the cost.

[anniebanana267]

11 hours ago, ajmckay said:

I agree that what you have there are most likely diatoms.  I also agree with the posts that your flow likely isn't enough.  A column tank is a really difficult tank to use for saltwater because it's tough to have the correct flow without expensive wave maker pumps.  

 

0) Are you adding straight tap water to your aquarium?  If so I'm surprised everything isn't dead...  You MUST use a water conditioner like the one in your hand.  When using it as a dechlorinator it doesn't matter if the water is fresh water or salt water, your LFS told you wrong or you misunderstood.

 

1) What sand do you currently have?  Did you rinse it well before adding it?   If not I would scoop it all out and rinse it in a bucket until all the cloudiness is gone. This should make it so that when you stir up the sand in the tank it's not releasing fine particles everywhere and clouding the tank.

2) Your stocking plans for the 36g are very ambitious - I would re-visit the stocking plan.  Also what are the dimensions?  I'm thinking another Koralia 425 will not be enough.  I would recommend something like a Jebao RW-4.  This is a lower cost controllable DC pump vs. an always on AC pump.

3) Crushed coral is fine, but without the discipline to clean it frequently it has the ability to trap MORE detritus.  Those pellets that sink to the bottom? They'll sink into cracks where it will be more difficult for your snails and such to reach.  At least with sand detritus will collect on top for easier removal.  I used to run the oolitic (very fine) sand which looks great, but overall I'm more a fan of the larger grain sand.  My favorite so far is the CaribSea special grade.  I've heard good things about reef flakes also if you can find them.

4) If you want a good experience with a reef tank then you need an RO/DI filter.  I tried tap and store bought reverse osmosis water and neither really worked.  Switching to making my own RO water was a major factor in my enjoyment of the hobby.   If you're doing a FOWLR (fish only with live rock) you can get away with using tap water more easily but there are still some risks with that as well as a need to be on a good maintenance routine.

5) Get some more snails.  The stomatella are fine but you can add more.  Sparing use of nassarius snails to stir up the sand, and a variety of snails for the glass/rock.  I would avoid anything too exotic at this stage (like urchins/stars). 

 

Good luck, take it slow. 

Thank you so much for all the advice.

He said word for word, “no, what you have there is for freshwater, don’t bother using any.” Now I’m rather upset at him.

The sand I had was live aragonite from Caribsea. Now I have crushed coral from top fin. And I rinsed it very very well, there was almost no clouding and the clouding it did get went away within 10 minutes.

The 15 gallon is gone thankfully. The new one is an Aqueon 36 gallon bowfront. Not sure of the exact dimensions as I don’t have access to a measuring tape at the moment. I have two hydor Koralia 425’s running one on each side, along with an aqueon 50 filter and the flow is great.

As far as stocking plan, there’s nooo way I’m going to get all of them. Those are just my likes and interests, and I was going to pick like one or two from them. 

I’ll definitely be cleaning it more often and more thorough, but I have to say I really love how it came out with the crushed coral so I’m willing to make the sacrifice of more cleaning.

Yes, I’m going to invest in a rodi filter. 

Unfortunately, the stomatellas were old and they both died, but now I have two hermit crabs and a flat snail that I’m not entirely sure the name of. I know it’s small for a CUC but I’m going to get more in the future.

thank you so much for taking the time to help me! I really appreciate it!

[anniebanana267]

6 hours ago, Jellyingabout said:

yes it should be fine although it may have buffers in it for pH that won't be aimed at reef pH. But thats a very small issue compared to chlorine. use it until you can get your hands on prime (one for marine waters)

 

there is one more option other than rodi units or bought water, and thats natural sea water, if you live anywhere near the cost.

Ok I saw prime at my lfs so I’ll get my hands on that as soon as I can.

i wish I could but my nearest beach is 2 hours away and I really dislike it because the water is always dark and nasty and smells horrid ? there’s a ton of man-of-war all around the beach and everything, it’s a mess. I’d rather invest in the rodi unit.

thank you so much again!

[Clown79]

On 10/04/2018 at 11:26 AM, anniebanana267 said:

Ok I saw prime at my lfs so I’ll get my hands on that as soon as I can.

i wish I could but my nearest beach is 2 hours away and I really dislike it because the water is always dark and nasty and smells horrid ? there’s a ton of man-of-war all around the beach and everything, it’s a mess. I’d rather invest in the rodi unit.

thank you so much again!

Purified water at the grocery store is not what you want to use.

 

The best is RODI or distilled.

 

You can buy refurbished spectrapure units on their site.

[Segalplayer]

Yikes the LFS guy...

 

agreed Ro/di water or get a unit for under your sink, especially if you have the room

[Kaniko]

Hey, I'm new too but took a different route then you did...  My LFS had been a godsend and didn't feed me bad info, actually the entire time I was cycling I was going weekly and they would let me hang out, ask questions and learn tips and tricks of the hobby.  My tank has cycled now and I am getting my first fish tomorrow, though my CUC isn't complete (waiting for them to get more of the snails I want in).  The guy at my store has constantly told me no...  Actually when I thought my tank was done cycling he made me bring water in for him to test and refused to sell me a shrimp because there were still traces(? I got him the next week but was very depressed that day).  Sounds to me like your lfs is only interested in making the sale, so you'll have to manage the control to finish your cycle before adding...  I would keep your small tank set up while you cycle the 36 the proper way..  if it's kept what you have alive so far it may keep them till the next tank is done.  My tank is a 37 gallon, I seeded the hell out of it and it took me a month for the cycle to finish.  I also started with tap and am making the transition away from it.  I let my water sit with water conditioner for two days before mixing with salt and adding sand  and rock to it...  I started with live rock in it from my LFS, and while it's been helping amazingly with the cycle, I would say be careful of pests (I got aiptasia and bristleworms, the latter everyone says can also help but they are just a nuisance to me).  I know how it feels but don't let your fish suffer because of impatience.  I am excited to see how you do!