Fish Immune system discussion

[HarryPotter]

15 minutes ago, Subsea said:

As I said before, tanks with no evident symptoms of ich for years can carry dormat ich.  

 

Fish immune system prevents an epidemic in tank just as on the reef.  I can not absolutely prove that but I can assure you, it can not be disproved.  

 

I do totally agree with built up immunity. That can pretty much be considered fact; exposure to foreign bodies allows the body to recognize and attack said body upon the following exposure.

 

Regarding ich, you brought that up with the tangs. Despite being a parasite and not viral/bacterial, a weak fish is more likely to die of parasites compared to a healthy one that manages to overcome it as many (including I) have seen.

 

I also agree that tanks with fish can carry bacteria even without seeing symptoms.  

 

I do NOT agree that feeding mussels the last 6 months and seeing coral improvement has anything to do with fish immunity. 

 

I do NOT agree that feeding mussels the last 6 months has any application to your success with those tangs with ich- look at the timeline. 5 years ago. In fact, looking at that, it seems to suggest that there is an error in the theory- why are they healthy if your tank has been relatively sterile without the regular introduction of bacteria? Perhaps the biological diversity we have in our tanks maintains itself, and negates the need for introducing more. 

 

[Subsea]

Harry,

 

Mt tank was not sterile five years ago.  I feed heavily with frozen, flake and live foods.  I started feeding live oysters 6 months ago.  It is a lot cheaper than the other live food.  

For certain, I do not know if gut cavity bacteria from mussels and clams assist in a healthy fish immune system.  Considering that oysters/mussels are high in omega and B complex it would be difficult for it to not be beneficial to fishes immune system.

 

A friend made the vidio of the tank in question from five years ago.  The GSP on back wall started out as a grapefruit size rock. I had not looked at it in so long, I forgot how clean back wall was then.  There is a date descrepancy in the title.  It should read 19 years.  I will talk to photography friend that posted this video.

 

 

[seabass]

I'm just going to throw this out there for the other people reading this thread.  The reason I cringe when people suggest to others that Ich can be fought off by healthy fish, is that I lost a 40 gallon tank full of fish due to Ich.  The tank was healthy and relatively mature.  I can't say that the fish which I purchased (that had Ich) was healthy, but my other fish were.  I tried just about every "reef safe" remedy to no avail.

 

I'm not alone in people helplessly watching the parasite take out all of their fish.  I'm not disputing that some people have had tanks with Ich that haven't killed their fish.  And I'm sure that nutrition has something to do with their luck.  However, Ich is easily treated and it's not necessary to lose any fish because of it.

[RayWhisperer]

My thoughts regarding feeding live oysters and mussels is it can’t hurt, with one exception. Any bivalves in your system. Oysters are known to carry Perkinsus, the protozoan thought to cause pinched mantle. Now, I’m fairly certain most, or all clams carry it. However, adding a fresh dose of live protozoan on a daily basis would, by my guess, give the existing protozoan a boost. Perhaps enough to trigger a PM outbreak. 

 

 

[RayWhisperer]

I’m going to have to agree with seabass, here. To not treat such an easily treatable parasite is idiotic. Even IF you believe their immune system can handle it. To risk losing a fish to it is stupid. Their immune system will be dealing with the outbreak, regardless if you treat, or not. The body will gain the antibodies, with the assistance of medications.

[Clown79]

I don't recommend not treating. I just haven't when I experienced it once.

I always recommend building a hospital tank and going fallow for 8 weeks.

 

There's a lot of people out there that don't treat and a lot that do for ich.

There have been arguments for and against for yrs. 

 

I didn't treat because I myself was going through my own medical issues unable to treat but the outcome was a positive one.

[Subsea]

3 hours ago, RayWhisperer said:

I’m going to have to agree with seabass, here. To not treat such an easily treatable parasite is idiotic. Even IF you believe their immune system can handle it. To risk losing a fish to it is stupid. Their immune system will be dealing with the outbreak, regardless if you treat, or not. The body will gain the antibodies, with the assistance of medications.

Please explain  to me how cooper, which is a heavy metal and toxic to ich parasite, can add antibiotics to fish. 

 

Is the Perkinsus protozoan for pinched mantle common in mussels?

[RayWhisperer]

Copper doesn’t. You’ve misunderstood what I said. I’ll try a different way. Once ich is visible, the fish’s immune system has already been reacting to it. Thus, building antibodies. Treating with copper will kill the parasite. However, the fish’s immune system has already had time to deal with, and create antibodies against it. It’s like getting antibiotics. You don’t go to the doctor  to get a course of antibiotics before you get an infection. You go after you’ve gotten an infection. Your body has built up antibodies, the antibiotics just kick the infection in the crotch for you. 

 

As for Perkinsus being present in mussels, I’m not sure, but I would guess it would be. I know it is in oysters, so, it seems logical it would be present in mussels as well.

[Subsea]

6 minutes ago, RayWhisperer said:

Copper doesn’t. You’ve misunderstood what I said. I’ll try a different way. Once ich is visible, the fish’s immune system has already been reacting to it. Thus, building antibodies. Treating with copper will kill the parasite. However, the fish’s immune system has already had time to deal with, and create antibodies against it. It’s like getting antibiotics. You don’t go to the doctor  to get a course of antibiotics before you get an infection. You go after you’ve gotten an infection. Your body has built up antibodies, the antibiotics just kick the infection in the crotch for you. 

 

As for Perkinsus being present in mussels, I’m not sure, but I would guess it would be. I know it is in oysters, so, it seems logical it would be present in mussels as well.

Thank you for the clarification.     I will let it sink in.  In the case of a flu shot or a measles shot you get a slight dose of the infection to build up immunities.

[RayWhisperer]

Yes, that’s a live strain or a dead strain immune system booster. The dead strain still has protein markers, or something like that, that trigger your immune system. Or, in the case of the live strain, they give you a weak version to boost the immune system. 

[HarryPotter]

Vaccines cause autism though...

[Subsea]

28 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

Vaccines cause autism though...

 

For certain, I will have to let that sink in.

 

Of course there are diseases & parasites that will wipe out a tank.  I happen to believe that fish immune system is the best defense against that.  The data shows that 60% of all fish mortality were due to stress & compromised fish immune system, while 19% of mortalities were due to parasites.

 

If three times as many mortalities happen due to stress & compromised immune system, than to parasites, I am going to address the biggest threat, which is stress.  Putting new fish in quarantine and treating with chemicals as a proactive procedure compounds shipping stress.

 

If qt meant observation only, I would have a differrent attitutude towards it.  

 

Just a thought.

[RayWhisperer]

Fwiw, I am the worst with QT. I am, because I agree with you on many levels. It's mostly to observe, treat only if needed. A week, maybe 2 at most.

 

as far as stress. Stress, and the associated weakened immune system could also be blamed for fish infested with parasites. Tangs are the #1 culprit, too. Take a fish with a minimal protective coating, stress it, this even less slime, now give ich a chance. That's why tangs often come in loaded with ich.

[Subsea]

On 1/25/2018 at 7:06 AM, RayWhisperer said:

Fwiw, I am the worst with QT. I am, because I agree with you on many levels. It's mostly to observe, treat only if needed. A week, maybe 2 at most.

 

as far as stress. Stress, and the associated weakened immune system could also be blamed for fish infested with parasites. Tangs are the #1 culprit, too. Take a fish with a minimal protective coating, stress it, this even less slime, now give ich a chance. That's why tangs often come in loaded with ich.

Thank you for that.

 

On another forum, a friend operates a Chesapeake Bay biotheme.   With his copper treatment tank,  I suggested an established macro algae  lagoon tank.  Operate an ornamental macro tank that when required becomes a cooper treatment tank.  Gracilaria Parvispora tested at agriculture lab showed 4 ppm cooper and 7 ppm zinc.  The algae will sequester some of the cooper treatment, which would have been lost to partial water changes.  The macro will absorb ammonia when cooper inhibits nitrification bacteria, eliminating the need for frequent water changes to control ammonia. 

 

Stress kills fish.  Adding chemicals and changing water in treatment tanks, stresses fish.

[squamptonbc]

I have been lucky through the years, haven't had ich in any saltwater fish. I have had it a couple of times in freshwater, and always did treat it as the small freshwater fish don't seem to handle it very well.

 

I have had marine fish die suddenly without warning, feeding fine in the AM, dead by the PM with no visible signs of disease. And if I had the money, I would get a necropsy done to try and find the cause of death.

 

I am not the best at qt new arrivals, and haven't had anything major, I had a fish a while back with a minor bacterial fin problem, but it cleared up on it's own, I did keep an eye on it and now that fish is fine with nothing visible. I do my best to keep them fed a varied and healthy diet and low stress environment with hiding places and places of rest.

 

I don't feed pellets or flakes, and my fish won't eat them anyhow, their diet consists of mysis shrimp from BC, various fresh sea food such as scallops, octopus, squid, shrimp, white fish, clam meat, silver sides, and i'll throw in some crab meat as well. I also put in small hermit crabs and snails, my Valentini Puffer seems to appreciate the snails and hermits, but snails mostly, he knocks about one a day out when it comes to snails.

 

I also add selcon to the fresh sea food mix.

 

I suppose I could try to wean both onto a pellet food of some sort, but I feel natural sea food items and mysis shrimp provide a more natural diet for them which I am sure helps their immune system like eating a healthy diet does for humans.

 

I feel pellets and flakes are akin to processed foods for humans, okay to survive, but maybe not the healthiest food options.

 

For what it's worth I also don't feed my dog kibble or canned processed foods, she gets raw foods only with minimal processing.

[Tamberav]

I would QT because of more scary crap than ich...

 

urinoma, brook, velvet 

 

Copper isn't the only method these days... I used Chloroquine phosphate on a Bellus angelfish that had visible Ich. I used it in a QT but the QT was full of live rock, cured the ich, no issues with the fish, ate like a pig the whole time and pecked at the rock all day. There was no cycle or anything, didn't do any water changes, just left the CP in there for 4 weeks to do its job than observed another 4 weeks after. Had that fish for a year with no issues, sold it when I moved.

 

The QT really wasn't any more stressful than the DT, the live rock simulated its natural environment. CP had no effect one the rock or biological filtration that I could detect.

 

 

 

[Subsea]

On 2/16/2018 at 11:52 AM, Tamberav said:

I would QT because of more scary crap than ich...

 

urinoma, brook, velvet 

 

Copper isn't the only method these days... I used Chloroquine phosphate on a Bellus angelfish that had visible Ich. I used it in a QT but the QT was full of live rock, cured the ich, no issues with the fish, ate like a pig the whole time and pecked at the rock all day. There was no cycle or anything, didn't do any water changes, just left the CP in there for 4 weeks to do its job than observed another 4 weeks after. Had that fish for a year with no issues, sold it when I moved.

 

The QT really wasn't any more stressful than the DT, the live rock simulated its natural environment. CP had no effect one the rock or biological filtration that I could detect.

 

 

 

 

 

I liked your post when I first read it.  Kudoes to you for maintaining a permanent display QT tank.  

 

Too many don’t keep a set up QT tank and consequently do more harm than good to livestock coming in.

 

 

[Tamberav]

3 hours ago, Subsea said:

 

 

I liked your post when I first read it.  Kudoes to you for maintaining a permanent display QT tank.  

 

Too many don’t keep a set up QT tank and consequently do more harm than good to livestock coming in.

 

3 hours ago, Subsea said:

 

 

 

Ya it's great and helps me sleep better. When I buy fish at times around 100 a pop... It isn't something I'm willing to risk. 

 

CP makes QT and treatment sooo easy... Can use live rock and it basically treats everything. 

[Subsea]

On 2/25/2018 at 11:13 AM, Tamberav said:

 

 

Ya it's great and helps me sleep better. When I buy fish at times around 100 a pop... It isn't something I'm willing to risk. 

 

CP makes QT and treatment sooo easy... Can use live rock and it basically treats everything. 

@Tamberav

You should incorporate this knowledge into the quarantine protocol and in the ich treatment protocol articles.

It would help a lot of stressed fish and reefkeepers.

[Tamberav]

2 hours ago, Subsea said:

@Tamberav

You should incorporate this knowledge into the quarantine protocol and in the ich treatment protocol articles.

It would help a lot of stressed fish and reefkeepers.

Good idea... Next week I should have time to start on an article. 

[Jesterrace]

On 1/24/2018 at 6:52 AM, Subsea said:

Even though I did  not mention ich, since you focused on it.  I will comment.

 

Twenty years ago, I maintained a 1500G extended system for display and growout.  Following a 2 year period with nothing added to system, an electrical failure stressed the system with a resulting outbreak of ich.  Of course, the naysayers say ich was in gills for two years without external symptoms.  In other words, I did not know what to look for.  My comment to that is bullshit.  

 

After less than than a week, all symptoms disappeared.  Fast forward twenty years.  My 25/year old 75G  Jaubert Plenum was in that system and was moved to Austin.  Five years ago, I received ten Blue Tangs from Divers Den, which has a 90 day qt protocol.  Tangs were individually bagged and were slated to go into differrent systems.  Six out of ten were heavily infested with ich, breathing erratically and very pale.  I choose to release these juvenile Blue Tangs into my 25 year old tank.  

 

Do I think that I eradicated ich in my tank or on the fish.  Of course not.  Ich is still in this tank, just as it is on the reefs in the wild.  

 

I susspect that > 80% of captive reef tanks have unidentifiable ich.

 

 

I agree there is at least some truth to what you are saying.  There are instances when properly QT'd and healthy fish go through some form of serious stress and then suddenly develop visible and noticeable ich.  I will say that QT helps insure you have a higher likelihood of a healthy, disease resistant fish.  

[Subsea]

@Jesterrace

 

I agree there is some truth to what you are saying.  Is there an echo in here?

 

Maybe with quarantine, you have a more healthy fish.  After reading forums for more than 20 years, I hear plenty of horror stories involved with quarantine.  One should qualify terms so that we all know what we are talking about.  If by quarantine, you have an established tank to observe a new fish then I agree with your definition.  I read differrent reef hobby threads and for many, quarantine means to set up a tank and do hyposaline treatment for two weeks.  I would not agree with doing that as good preventative maintenance.  It may be true that if a fish makes it thru that ordeal, it is indeed the fittest of the fit.