Fish Immune system discussion

[Subsea]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145305X17301118

 

My friend, PaulB, tells me that this article validates his position on qt and fish immune system health.  

 

I have feed live mussels & oysters for the last six months.   I can’t speak to fish immune system response in such a short time.  I will say, I have never seen more feathers or polyp extension in this 25 year old tank.   For $0.10 each, I feed my two mature tanks at least one mussel a day.  The ritual of going to the seafood counter and breaking open a sack of mussels was followed by showing videos of the tank.  Everybody got a kick out of it.

 

I can speak to over treatment of sick fish.  Let us pick HDLL.  This is not a disease, it is a symptom of bad diet.    Most disease would never make it past a healthy reef fishes immune system.  Just as in modern medicine, it is becoming evident that sterilization procedures favor bad bugs.  Because good bacteria are much more sensitive to sterilation procedures, the bad bacteria populations explode.  In essence, good bacteria keep bad bacteria in check.

[seabass]

I still get a little leery about using nutrition as a cure for actual diseases, or parasites like Ich.  I know you have posted that your tank has fish with Ich and you don't need to treat it.  I'm sure that good nutrition has something to do with it.  However, it has also been shown that fish build up a natural resistance to Ich.  I think that is also playing a role.

 

All in all a good post.  But despite the importance and benefits of good nutrition, there are still a number of diseases which need additional treatment.  I cringe whenever I hear someone recommend not treating Ich.  Maybe I'm just too stuck in my ways.

[Subsea]

How is a “natural resistance to ich” differrent than a “healthy immune system”?  

 

Of course their are parasites that get past healthy fish immune system, but I see the issue differrently.

 

Just as in our leading cancer hospitals, we kill more people with invasive protocols than we cure.

 

 

 

[seabass]

1 hour ago, Subsea said:

How is a “natural resistance to ich” differrent than a “healthy immune system”?  

The resistance comes from having recently fought the parasite.  A healthy fish doesn't necessarily have this natural resistance.

 

"Fish can develop immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans that can last for up to six months (Colorni, 1987 and Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It is this natural immunity that makes evaluating the effectiveness of various treatment options so difficult. How can someone ever be certain that what they dosed to their tank or fed to their fish is what caused the cure they observed?"

- http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

[Subsea]

Yes, I have read that article.  I also read the research paper which Steven Pro referenced.  When reading the details of the dormant cyst ich life cycle, in research papers, it states that “most will incubate in 60 days”.  It used to be 28 days.  More importantly is the use of the word most.  It only takes one to start the cycle.  I remember the line in Jurassic Park, “Nature will find a way”.

[Subsea]

Even though I did  not mention ich, since you focused on it.  I will comment.

 

Twenty years ago, I maintained a 1500G extended system for display and growout.  Following a 2 year period with nothing added to system, an electrical failure stressed the system with a resulting outbreak of ich.  Of course, the naysayers say ich was in gills for two years without external symptoms.  In other words, I did not know what to look for.  My comment to that is bullshit.  

 

After less than than a week, all symptoms disappeared.  Fast forward twenty years.  My 25/year old 75G  Jaubert Plenum was in that system and was moved to Austin.  Five years ago, I received ten Blue Tangs from Divers Den, which has a 90 day qt protocol.  Tangs were individually bagged and were slated to go into differrent systems.  Six out of ten were heavily infested with ich, breathing erratically and very pale.  I choose to release these juvenile Blue Tangs into my 25 year old tank.  

 

Do I think that I eradicated ich in my tank or on the fish.  Of course not.  Ich is still in this tank, just as it is on the reefs in the wild.  

 

I susspect that > 80% of captive reef tanks have unidentifiable ich.

 

 

[Subsea]

American pharmaceutical industry funds many hospital programs that teach doctors to target symptoms.  I see the same tendency in reef hobbiest.  Fix it quick is not a long term cure.  Obviously, it depends on ailments. 

 

I consider holistic in nature and holistic in treatment.  

[NanoRox]

All they need is some essential oils.  A little lavender and lemon grass and all will be well.  ;-) 

[Subsea]

Duane,

I might use a lavender epsome salt soak for mussels ach or arthritis.

 

I choose to use live food produced by complex food webs in tank.  When you have a 25 year old tank using your technique then come talk to me with pictures.

[Cannedfish]

1 hour ago, Duane Clark said:

All they need is some essential oils.  A little lavender and lemon grass and all will be well.  ;-) 

Essential oils! Gwyneth Paltrow also suggests utilizing the holistic healing powers of crystals; but don't forget to recharge them each month under the full moon. #science 

[Subsea]

It seems as if two viewpoints on operating a reef tank are in question here:  I consider things in short term goals and long term goals.

 

Control techies/Neat freaks

Nano tanks work well here, because they are easy to do a complete overhaul in an hour or less.  Not so with the big boys.  If your biofiltration is inadequate, you have a problem.  

 

I am a “Laissez Faire” reefkeeper that relies heavily on natural filtration with complex food webs in the tank to feed tank inhabitants.  For certain, this system will show algae.  My Laissez Faire style relies on Dynamic Equilibrium to maintain tank.  I can list many in tank food webs that illustrate Dynamic Equilibrium, but let us back up and talk about Dynamic Equilibrium in the athmosphere for alkalinity the “carbon pump” for planet earth.  It is called carbon fixation.  The nitrogen pump for planet earth is the conversion of nitrogen gas by cynobacteria to a nitrate molecule and on the flip side, denitrification occurs when bacteria in a reducing environment convert nitrate to free nitrogen gas.  Oxygen is self explanatory.  All of this happens thru Dynamic Equilibrium.

[HarryPotter]

But some things don't add up. For example you introduces those ich infested tangs 5 years ago and they did well. But you have just started feeding live 6 months ago. Timeline issues.  

 

Begging the question: 

 Feeding muscles is effective because my fish have superior natural resistance. 

 

False Cause:

My fish are healthy because I feed a variety of natural food.

(As opposed to the utmost care and experience of the reefkeeper. If the average person adds a bunch of sick tangs to their tank, they die. Even is they feed mussels.  Also,  you weren't feeding mussels back then.)

 

Oversimplification: 

Feeding mussels will cure fish of disease since they will have an improved immune system. 

(as opposed to the dozens of obvious environmental factors in fish keeping)

 

Red Herrings/ False analogy 

"talk about Dynamic Equilibrium in the athmosphere for alkalinity the “carbon pump” for planet earth.  It is called carbon fixation.  The nitrogen pump for planet earth is the conversion of nitrogen gas by cynobacteria to a nitrate molecule and on the flip side, denitrification occurs bacteria in a reducing environment convert nitrate to free nitrogen gas.  Oxygen is self explanatory.  All of this happens thru Dynamic Equilibrium."

 

(Completely unrelated to fish immune system/response or the topic at hand. "If you believe in carbon fixation, you must believe that my hypothesis regarding immunity is correct")

 

Vaccines are effective, and exposure to the environment as a baby makes one much less likely to have to certain cancers and weaknesses. The "keep babies very clean" strategy has led to increases in allergies, etc. Exposure leads to immunity, or at least enables the body to recognize the foreign body more quickly. Paul B introduces tons of bacteria from the ocean to his tank, while keeping the fish fat and healthy- which could be seen as building immunity. 

 

But to say that feeding mussels & oysters has led to better polyp extension and "feathers"? That jumps to an entirely new and different hypothesis- that corals like mussels? There is nothing to disprove that they were simply more hungry before, and now you are feeding more. 

 

Just some thoughts

-Potter

 

 

[Subsea]

Of course, I jumped around.  Of course, I over simplified.   At 70 years old, I am not applying for a doctorial thesis.  

 

My emphasis on feeding mussels  to my aquarium was to illustrate that fresh gut system bacteria are a healthy component in a fishes diet.   The fact that filter feeders like it is a good thing.

 

Most of of the time in these discussions, we can never isolate every change in a living ecosystem.  Your opinion is as good as mine.  

 

PS. Did you read the article?  Do you disagree with the findings?

[NanoRox]

[HarryPotter]

4 minutes ago, Subsea said:

Of course, I jumped around.  Of course, I over simplified.   At 70 years old, I am not applying for a doctorial thesis.  

 

My emphasis on feeding mussels  to my aquarium was to illustrate that fresh gut system bacteria are a healthy component in a fishes diet.   The fact that filter feeders like it is a good thing.

 

Most of of the time in these discussions, we can never isolate every change in a living ecosystem.  Your opinion is as good as mine.  

 

Just some commentary on the theories, nothing personal. Maintaining bacterial diversity and preventing out tanks from becoming sterile and susceptible may very well be the way of the future!

[Subsea]

Everybody runs a tank differrent.  

 

When Erick Boreneman said, “If some tells you their way is the only way to run a reef tank, run from them”.

[HarryPotter]

4 minutes ago, Subsea said:

Everybody runs a tank differrent.  

 

When Erick Boreneman said, “If some tells you their way is the only way to run a reef tank, run from them”.

 

People that know the “way” are either lunatics or fanatics! 

[Subsea]

I reread the article.  

 

In summary. Stress interplay’s with immune system with healthy diet to be

 

PS.  60% of  cause in fish mortality with parasites causing 19% of mortality.

[Clown79]

I've had fish with ich and truthfully, never treated and didn't lose any of the fish nor had an additional breakout. 

 

I recently lost 2 fish in my 5g. Even if I had qt each fish, I would have lost both of them because neither displayed any physical signs of illness, not even upon death. 

 

They just died within 1 day of each other. Not a thing on their bodies, no gasping, no eye issues, no tummy bulge. No white poop. No behviour changes either. Mystery illness.

 

I truly don't believe there is a perfect way to do reefs.

 

People qt and pre treat and their fish still get sick and die

 

People medicate sick fish and they still die

 

Just like all life, there's no perfect answer for treatment or prevention.

 

[Nano sapiens]

My 2 cents...

 

Clearly, anything that we can do to enhance the fish's natural immune systems will be helpful.  Doesn't mean that in so doing that every fish will be in perfect health and live to be one hundred (exaggeration).  Sometimes fish just die for no apparent (to us) reason even with the best of care.  Obviously, this can and does happen in nature, too, and the fish are then typically snapped up as a snack if anything is 'off' with them.

 

I have only seen Ich once or twice in the last 40 or so years of keeping salt water fish and I didn't loose any fish to it (at least not where it was obviously Ich related).  In my reef tanks it tended to 'disappear' although it was almost certainly still present.

[HarryPotter]

My clowns were covered in ich shortly after putting them into my (then) new tank. I put them in a 10g with cupramine for a few days, and then put them back in the tank when the spots were gone. Never came back 

 

 

[Subsea]

3 hours ago, HarryPotter said:

My clowns were covered in ich shortly after putting them into my (then) new tank. I put them in a 10g with cupramine for a few days, and then put them back in the tank when the spots were gone. Never came back 

 

 

Harry,

Do you think that the display tank you put clowns back into has dormat ich in it?

 

[HarryPotter]

1 minute ago, Subsea said:

Harry,

Do you think that the display tank you put clowns back into has dormat ich in it?

 

 

Almost certainly! Taking out the fish for a few days (Well under a week) would have zero effect on the waterborne ich as far as I know 

[Subsea]

As I said before, tanks with no evident symptoms of ich for years can carry dormat ich.  

 

Fish immune system prevents an epidemic in tank just as on the reef.  I can not absolutely prove that but I can assure you, it can not be disproved.  

[Subsea]

9 hours ago, seabass said:

The resistance comes from having recently fought the parasite.  A healthy fish doesn't necessarily have this natural resistance.

 

"Fish can develop immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans that can last for up to six months (Colorni, 1987 and Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It is this natural immunity that makes evaluating the effectiveness of various treatment options so difficult. How can someone ever be certain that what they dosed to their tank or fed to their fish is what caused the cure they observed?"

- http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

Immunization of virile and bacterial infections do indeed increase good bacteria to fight bad bacteria.  I can’t see how that applies to a parasite like ich sucking life floods from its host.