A designer's minimal Reef

[Nstocks]

I've seen the Hydor smart level (£60 over here) which seems the most reliable as the mechanisms don't move (I believe it works on temperature differences) This is probably the minimal I'd get from a pre-made device.

 

The Amico float are what most people seem to use and your'e right; not minimal at all!

 

Either way, I'd still need a controller and the digital aquatic lite is the cheapest option, but I'd have to import it and change a few things.

 

I've just received another quotation from a company I've been talking to for weeks... Original price for 550 x 550 x 350 was £170. For a 650 x 650 x 330 plus 550 x 400 x 400 sump cost £500! That's 3x more expensive. I've asked them to clarify the quote - it doesn't sound right to me, plus it will take 8 weeks! I've emailed a few more builders.

[Nstocks]

I've just had an idea to further minimise the revised overflow (based on Xaqua)

 

Instead of using a screen on the outside of the 'dry' wall (acrylic box within the tank), I could cut the screen into the acrylic itself. Then, on the 'dry' side I would glue a threaded PVC fitting (plastic-to-plastic is good) which would be used to direct the water down into the sump.

 

 

I'm also thinking 1" pipework for the drain, not 20mm, and using 20mm for the return. Only question is, do I run at full siphon or let air into the drain... Full siphon is probably silent but there is risk of overflooding since it's the only drain. I'm not sure how easy it is to perfectly match the return pump flow to the drain, which would prevent overflow.

Unless I can rely on a kill switch and sensor in the display tank to turn off the return.

 

Quick mockup of it below - the paper is representing the 10mm thick acrylic.

 

 

[Nstocks]

I've modelled the revised design which can be seen below.

 

The 'dry' box within the tank is 180mm x 120mm, so I've saved 50mm using this method instead of the herbie method.

 

An opportunity has came up to buy a used Vortech MP10, however the dry side will not fit in my current design and making the it fit would totally negate the whole reason for this design which is to save space. I could use a Hydor which has a much smaller magnetic dry side which would obviously take a little more space in the display.

 

I've been ambitious with the light fixture too. Here it is modelled in 12.5mm square aluminium tubing which will house the cable too. I'm not entirely sure how I will fit it into the chamber, perhaps a counter weight or something. This method hides the vertical part of the fixture that would otherwise be visible from the front of the tank.

 

Next is to create a box within the dry chamber that could house two sensors for turning off the pump, should the drain block. (still not sure about full siphon on this yet). By housing the sensors within the chamber and cutting out part of the acrylic (like the above drain inlet grate) I can hide the sensors completely, yet still have them make contact with high water levels. The size of the sensor will determine the display tank water level so conventional float switches are not viable.

 

Let me know what you think - I've never designed aquariums and pushing everything to the edge is a little nerving!

 

 

[tlombardo]

A little confused about the box within a box and where exactly the sensors are going in this scenario. The MP10 has a maximum space between the two sides and if I'm interpreting the design right you want two layers of glass/acrylic with space between them between the two sides? I think that would exceed the limit but maybe I'm wrong.

 

Really like the thought you've put in so far and looking forward to the final product/ stocking decisions. Always envious of those in this hobby with good design/ aesthetic senses.

 

Tony

 

Edit: I know nothing of plumbing and such so I can't help you there.

[smiz]

One thought on the mp10 location. One of the great benefits of the mp10 is its very wide spread. I this instance though you are sort of limiting that spread by tucking it into a wall. Also I would interpret the flow to hit that wall and disperse more then bounce of and go to the opposite end of the tank. Just a thought though looks great!

[Nstocks]

A little confused about the box within a box and where exactly the sensors are going in this scenario. The MP10 has a maximum space between the two sides and if I'm interpreting the design right you want two layers of glass/acrylic with space between them between the two sides? I think that would exceed the limit but maybe I'm wrong.

 

Really like the thought you've put in so far and looking forward to the final product/ stocking decisions. Always envious of those in this hobby with good design/ aesthetic senses.

 

Tony

 

Edit: I know nothing of plumbing and such so I can't help you there.

 

The box within the box is for a couple of reasons:

 

If you look at the XAQUA, all the pipework is external which to me is very ugly. In most cases (including mine to some degree) the pipes won't be seen all the time - mostly when viewing the reef from the top, but it's not something I could live with.

 

By having a 'false exterior' or a dry chamber, I'm essentially creating what would be the "outside" of the tank by moving all the plumbing into the tank, hidden behind a frosted acrylic box. This acrylic box is 100% watertight and is placed into the tank. So on two sides (top and right) there will be the 10mm glass and 10mm acrylic. The reason for making an acrylic box and not just a wall is to make it super strong and supported on all sides. (traditionally glass is used for weir support and is faced with acrylic to hide the pipes and house comb). The MP10 would be place on the acrylic only since these two sides (left and bottom of the box) are acrylic and no glass.

 

The sensors would go into another box which is fed water from a void in the acrylic, totally watertight from the rest of the chamber. I'm not sure if this would work due to the height needed for a float switch. Another option could be using some other sensor, perhaps not mechanical that takes up minimal space. I could even build something into the light fixture where it directly above water but again, I'm not aware of any safe and tiny sensors that I could use.

 

EDIT: This is exactly the type of enclosure I'm talking about: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/334747-almost-a-flood-jbj-ato-question/

Rather than putting the float switches up high, therefor reducing the display water level, I could create a slot 10mm or so from the top of the tank. When water goes through the slot, it fills a box that contains two float switches. The box would be very small so it takes little water to trip the float switch, killing the return pump before the water rises too high.

 

Side note: Any suggestions for an inexpensive controller to link the float switches and return pump? In the UK.

 

I'm focused on having a slice of the ocean in my room, not a box of equipment. Every detail is vital and it's taking a lot of time and research to figure out how to do it right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One thought on the mp10 location. One of the great benefits of the mp10 is its very wide spread. I this instance though you are sort of limiting that spread by tucking it into a wall. Also I would interpret the flow to hit that wall and disperse more then bounce of and go to the opposite end of the tank. Just a thought though looks great!

 

I agree with that to some degree. The MP10 in its current position is facing the shortest wall (back wall). However, if it bounces off that wall it should circulate towards the drain. The pump return is facing the front of the tank where I would estimate the two flows could meet.

 

I've looked at using a closed loop, but this would require another hole taking up more space so there's no point.

 

(sorry for the crude drawing!)

 

[tlombardo]

That makes more sense to me. The box is just for an emergency shut off in case the plumbing gets clogged right? I say screw the sensor and instead of that box just have one more tube hidden inside your box that runs to the sump. It will generally remain unused(and also unseen) but that way if too much water is pumped into the display it will run over into the sump rather than overflowing.

 

Edit: the extra tube would be fed through something similar to the slit you made above that feeds the box you had. It would be above the normal water level but below the rim of the aquarium.

 

I agree 100% on avoiding a box of equipment. I got rid of my first build because it didn't matter to me what was inside when the outside looked bad.I had a 16 Nuvo with skimmer and other stuff sticking out of the back and a bulky chinese light fixture hanging above. Still working on cleaning up the current build but it's much better in that way. My best option would be to add a sump but I don't see myself doing that on a 3.5 gallon ha - maybe if I upgrade eventually.

 

Tony

[Nstocks]

The box of sensors is just incase the only drain gets clogged, correct.

 

An additional drain would be better, however it means the box will increase substantially, making this modified design pointless. (original design was two herbie standpipes and one return - on page 1). Even with a 20mm drain, due to the spacing required in the glass, it will increase the overall box size, whereas the sensors take up no extra space.

 

I almost purchased a Fluval M-60 where all the equipment is behind an acrlyic wall. I didn't like how the acrylic wall reduced the depth of the aquarium though. This is why I'm having no cables or plumbing being the tank.

[tlombardo]

I don't see how one extra pipe connected to the slit you drew above that connected to the box you had planned originally would take up too much extra room.

[Nstocks]

I don't see how one extra pipe connected to the slit you drew above that connected to the box you had planned originally would take up too much extra room.

 

It takes up at leat 60mm extra. This is based on the minimum distances between holes. I can't cut any hole closer to the back pane either.

 

I'm working with other tank builders but I doubt their minimum sizes would be any different. (That tiny hole on the right is for cables, even without it, I can't move the next hole closer to the edge. Apparently 80mm to the diameter is the minimum, I'm going for 70mm.

 

I'm going to try and get the holes closer together so I don't need the float valves and (expensive?) controller.

[farkwar]

Lifegard makes those flat grills if you dont want to make your own.

 

Also check spa suppliers, youll find a lot of variety with them.

[farkwar]

Can I give you one more UN-minimalist suggestion.

 

If you do go with that plenum design, put in a drain down at the bottom, then a small plenum(like 5mm) up to the overflow.

 

To suck up the larger heavier detritus, that wants to stay low.

 

I made one out of acrylic, if you want some pics I can post some.

[Nstocks]

Lifegard makes those flat grills if you dont want to make your own.

 

Also check spa suppliers, youll find a lot of variety with them.

 

They do but only in black. I can save space and have it look a lot nicer with either a slot or teeth but I'd probably stick to a slot. All the acrylic will be CNC cut so I could use any type of drain inlet design.

 

Can I give you one more UN-minimalist suggestion.

 

If you do go with that plenum design, put in a drain down at the bottom, then a small plenum(like 5mm) up to the overflow.

 

To suck up the larger heavier detritus, that wants to stay low.

 

I made one out of acrylic, if you want some pics I can post some.

 

Could you explain this differently, I don't quite understand what you mean.

 

This could be on the same path, but what if I use one large drain (1.5" or 2" hole) and then somehow 'Tee'' off a smaller pipe that would act as a emergency line. So they both run into the same hole, but are entirely separate pipes. I'm not sure if such a connection exists though, whereby the lines are both watertight and independent. Plus I'd need to find a 5mm threaded nut to glue onto the acrylic as my mock-up shows on post 52.

[farkwar]

I cant tell if your drain plenum is wet or dry.

 

Anyway,

 

Think of a T at the top of your drain.

send a pipe back down to the bottom of the tank.

With a drain inlet down at the bottom.

 

It will suck poop from down below at the bottom of the tank where it likes to stay, go up the pipe, then up and down your drain.

[Nstocks]

The drain plenum is dry.

 

Good idea with that and because it has to travel upwards, there's no risk of my tank emptying, right? This implementation would also reduce the need for siphoning the sand too? (though still stir it weekly). Does the pressure from the main drain at the top of the tank cause enough pressure to prevent it flowing down the smaller pipe, or is this partly due to the placement / orientation of the T fitting? Do you have images of this setup please?

 

I've found a T reducer that might work for my secondary drain. If I can a way to make it watertight (haven't found a threaded reducer yet) without using a load of glue this could be the perfect solution to my overflow risks (though I'd need to workout if the secondary drain can handle the flow)

 

Something like this: http://www.abwplastics.co.uk/pvc-reducing-tee-63-x-25mm---160-x-110mm-2930-p.asp

[Nstocks]

I've been looking at how much space each additional bulkhead will take when I realised: all of these bulkheads just waste space!

 

Rather than having 3 bulkheads, I'm working with the idea of cutting one large hole (70mm diameter) in the base of the tank for all pipework and any power cords to go through. Normally they would be held by bulkheads, however since this chamber is going to be dry, I won't need the water tight fitting.

 

Instead I could cut an acrylic disc that drops into the hole for support. In addition, a 50mm high clear acrylic block could be placed on top of that to add help keep the pipes in place (shown in green)

 

This means I can have: 32mm drain. 20mm emergency drain (flex-pipe, represented by that half length pipe). 20mm return. The box measure 140mm x 140mm.

 

I'd still like to run this at full siphon so I could implement the box within the dry chamber that is fed with water via the emergency drain. This way I have two steps of making sure the tank doesn't overflow. Is there an inexpensive way to link the float valve to the return pump? Some clever, yet cheap switch mechanism to kill the power to the pump if the float is triggered.

 

I think with this design, teeth would be a better option too. (return and emergency overflow are not covered)

 

[Nstocks]

I'm trying to work out if a single 20mm emergency overflow would be sufficient or not.

 

I have one 32mm main drain (fully submerged) and one 20mm return pipe (fully submerged).

 

The total aquarium volume is 140litres (if full to the top). The overflow is 5mm from the top of the tank, so in total the waterline is 25mm from the top of the tank (determined by the bottom of the overflow hole)

 

Let's say the drain submerged 32mm drain clogged, how would I know if the 20mm overflow can handle the flow? I assume the flow is governed by the return pump, but I'm not sure what that output would be.

[Nstocks]

If I have 130 litres in the display tank with a 32mm drain, how would I calculate the turnover rate (return pump) and then calculate if a 20mm emergency overflow will be sufficient?

[farkwar]

I made mine out of acrylic.

 

It liiks like a regular overflow box at the top.

 

But it goes to the bottom of the tank, has holes for drain, and a plenum inside, from top to bottom to prevent flood. Water will stop draining when it reaches top of inside wier, which is equal to the lowest teeth level.

 

Since there is a overflow at the top, and one at the bottom, both would need to be plugged to cause stop of draining. Absurdly unlikely. This dual overflow is built, just not in a tank yet.

 

The only time I've plugged the overflow on my tank has been when I was floating bags for acclimation. Pump started sucking air, ahh, its plugged by the bag. Remove bag.

 

Its an 1.5 inch drain, im not overly concerned with overflow flood, because it really cant happen, because the sump was designed properly. Something catestrophic would need to happen. Worst case is I burn up a $100 pump, that I have a spare for, because the return chamber runs dry.

[farkwar]

...overflow can I assume the flow is governed by the return pump, but I'm not sure what that output would be.

My flow is limited by the drain on one tank.

 

And the flow on another its the pump that's limiting.

 

Find a pump that does the turnover you desire, then get the next size up. Most pumps have some integral flow adjustment, but I like a ball valve in return line, right before it goes in tank. How you have your design that wont work because it would be in your overflow plenum. It would need to go under the tank.

 

And you need a drain thats big enough to handle the flow, you want.

[farkwar]

Is there an inexpensive way to link the float valve to the return pump? Some clever, yet cheap switch mechanism to kill the power to the pump if the float is triggered.]

Cheapest would be a low voltage power supply, 12v. Float switch. And high voltage relay. Theres a DIY ATO kit fir like $35 that has all the parts for this. An RKL again could do it, but more expensive.If your return is small thats overkill.

 

This is it,http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/aquahub-diy-top-it-off-kit-premium-1.html

[Nstocks]

I'm looking at the Ehiem Compact+ 2000 which can handle 1,000 - 2,000 litres.

 

Display is 140L and sump is approx, 100litres. So, if I did 7x turnover for the entire system, that would require 1,680 litres per hour pump. Any more than that could cause too much noise and probably isn't needed.

 

If I submerge a 32mm drain, how would I calculate the required output in order to keep things going?

 

I understand a 20mm pipe can handle 1,200 litres per hour but mine will have 1 or two 90 degree elbows. SO, I might need to turn down the flow between the display and sump, just incase the drain blocks (unlikely). (1200LPH for the entire system is 5x turnover per hour)

 

I'd rather stick with two drains than a float valve which is going to cost more money. I'm just obsessed with details and need to workout every calculation so there's no room for error. (and also determine a revised sump size)

[farkwar]

http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/RichardSperry/media/DaLf28_edit_1412034252976.jpeg.html'>

 

This would be two drains.

 

Rough sketch.

[Nstocks]

So I'd need to install a 'box within a box'? How wide/deep have you made the plenum?

 

The bottom drain is at full siphon, how about the top drain? What controls the waterline if both are at full siphon? If the top drain becomes blocked, how does the chamber prevent water from rising from the bottom drain?

 

It's a very interesting idea and one I'd like to adapt... Are you aware of similar systems for a precedent?

[Nstocks]

I've changed the design (again!)

 

It's a 'hang on the back' weir, but inside a dry chamber within the tank. It's completely watertight (all acrylic construction) and has two bulkheads.

 

One drain is fully submerged (bulkhead fitting only) and the other is 5mm below the water inlet slot. (herbie method). The entire chamber will have a lid to reduce any noise (though these are silent anyway) Both drains are 20mm. One 20mm return is in the dry side of the chamber.

 

I could also install a float switch in the overflow chamber but I probably don't need to anymore.

 

By the looks of things, I'll end up building the tank myself. I won't be able to wait 6-8 weeks for it!