wolf eel

[DitchPlains]

Slightly offensive...your arrogance and ignorance is not only offensive, it is also dismissive, disturbing and infantilizing to me and to other readers. First let's clarify a few things...we disagree that’s obvious, but it goes further then that, your of the belief its best to as you put it and I am quoting,

"As for the salmon, shame, but that is the past...not the future. People were careless, and we realized too late. That hard lesson has taught us to be more careful in the future...so the benefit is that we are learning from our mistakes. " well this "learning from our mistakes" approach is thoughtless, careless and ignorant. Wouldn't it be more prudent to not rush forward by trying to keep creatures which may or may not need huge areas of water to properly survive, and just do research and observe these creatures in the wild rather then just as you put it, "I think 1700g would be enough for a supposed 'manta'" I don't think this is based on any real research of your own or others, but rather of opinion. Secondly, I know the history of this hobby very well, and I know that wild captured creatures and such started this hobby, but I feel this hobby has reached a nice homeostasis with its environment ( I mean besides those like yourself who advocate keeping endangered species in captive home tanks and creatures who don't fair well in captivity, ie: sharks, rays, eels, etc....)

 

 

Oh and here's the piece des resistances; "I’m sure their will be more developments that will allow people to keep anything they want in an aquarium...mantas included. If you are against this, then you shouldn’t be a reefer," what kind of asinine statement is this? I shouldn't be a reef keeper because I won't advocate keeping a rare possibly endangered species in someone's home just for their pleasure and then advocate an industry to support it?? LOL you got to be kidding right? Do you even read what you write, that's ridiculous I enjoy this hobby but don't enjoy or support capricious purchases that could lead to loss of population for some rich folks to enjoy such a beautiful creature in their homes?

 

Oh and in regards to your friend's 1700g shark tank, that is a prime example of the idiocy I speak of, a tank in some guy's basement to keep what looks like a Black Tip Reef Shark?? That's a disgrace to having any concern for this hobby or conserving wild species. Good luck buddy. Now you can call this reply offensive!

 

 

Here's the pic of a black tip reef shark which can grow over 8ft long in a 1700g tank....Thats just cruel. Apprently your friend isn;t concenred about size as probably is Winnker, having a possbily 8ft shark in a 1700g tank...lol I'll back off when you wake up .

[DitchPlains]

I forgot one last point you stated, "As for the canadian forest, I dont see how there will be a problem as long as the loggers are responsible as they are now. They dont cut down everything, just select trees, and then they replant. " Here's what the BFN had to say about it, "Few people know that the boreal forest is in crisis. Since the late 1980s over $13 billion of new and expanded pulp mills and oriented strand board mills have been built, making the boreal the subject of a new feeding frenzy by the corporations. In addition to large?scale clear cutting the oil and gas industry has laid down thousands upon thousands of kilometers of seismic lines, creating untold ecological damage in the boreal forest, all of which severely fragment wildlife habitat and indigenous peoples traditional food gathering, trapping and hunting territories." So don't tell me they just cut down what they need and are planting 2 trees for all they cur down, especially when some species of birds need 300 to 400 mile sof pristine forest to breed, but I guess its too bad for them they can't live in the same tank with your Manta or they'll live forever under your glorious consumerism.

 

 

Oh and here's the quote you said you didn't say in your earlier argument " And although clownfish being captive spawned and sold doesnt mean they are being reintroduced, the shift of demand from wild collecting to captive raised takes the pressure off wild populations"

[winnker]

well, yes very true some fish just are not ment to be kept in a tank. well at least in ur house lol I mean look at a pearlscale butterfly fish I would love one but they don't live in capivity. well at leasst that what I have heard.

[DitchPlains]

Very true that's part of the basis of the whole situation, some fish are not meant to be in captivity, period, and we should be aware of the captive longevity of a species and its cohabtation in our home systems and its impact on the enviroment.

[Undertheradar]

One point at a time to keep from making a BLOG...weve already hijacked this thread as is. Cali Condors had to be kept in captivity or else they would be extinct...still think captivity is bad? Captivity offers a chance for a specimen to receive care it could not in the wild...giving it a better chance. Agreed?

 

BTW, what is wrong with "learning from our mistakes?" ???!!!???

" well this "learning from our mistakes" approach is thoughtless, careless and ignorant. "<

[winnker]

ya, I wish I could have a ribbon eel too they are pretty but I hear they are pretty unstable as well

[Undertheradar]

You think this hobby has reached a nice 'homeostasis'...according to your own thoughts on this...and even my own...that is not true. We still harvest wild corals. We still collect wild fish. According to what you have written, how could you then turn around and say we have reached 'homeostasis'?

[winnker]

I don't think we have reached a homeostasis at all. if we had we would be growing our own corals and replacing the ones taken from the ocean it would be a cycle

[winnker]

wow guys, we can all get along, so u have different views its ok

[DitchPlains]

"Homeostasis" in that there is not a over export of wc versus captive raised, a perfect example is everything in my tank is captive raised, if there was more wc then captive raised I wouldn't be able to purchase anything but wc creatures. Thus thats why I said "homeostais" when I can consciously choose as a consumer chose to buy captive raised creatures over wc then I am feeling the hobby has reached a homestasis with the wild enviroment. Ofcourse, I would perfer the hobby to get better and to eventually obstain from wld capturing, but thats obvious isn;t it from my tone throughout this entire debacle? I mean your just arguing semantics now aren't you?

 

Moving from what you said, "BTW, what is wrong with "learning from our mistakes?" Learning from our mistakes is just fine, but why go through the mistake when you can avoid it by being cautious and doing a little research, unlike your friend with his Black Tip Reef Shark.

 

As far as Cali Condors are concerned its also the fac that those bird were being killed by high tension wires, and lack of breeding areas, or pesticides such as DDT, etc... SO we caused the problem then trying to say keeping them captive has suddenly helped nature out, nature does just fine on its own, we screw it up, and we screw it up more when we don't think about our actions.

[DitchPlains]

We disagree very true, winnker, I say try to stick to more suitable tank creatures, and less unstable and rare pets, this way you can avoid ending up like that guy with a Black Tip Reef shark in his basement.

[winnker]

lol ya I Know. well I don't know I am not gettin int he middle of it lol I had a fight with someone on here and I hated it.

[DitchPlains]

I was just arguing vehemently, to make sure let me apologize to undertheradar. I am very adament about my opinions on this issue, any other issue would have remained silent, probably because I worry everyday in this hobby if I am helping destroy the enviroment I love so much (the oceans) keeping a reef. It worries me, I am an avid diver, surfer, and member of Greenpeace and The Surf Rider Foundation. ok take care

[Whitten]

I have a fish in a tank, that will eventually get released back to the wild....granted it isn't any type of salt water fish, but he will eventually out grow the tank. I guess that I may have entered the convo at the wqrong time. Anyway, enjoy your eel, they can be funny creatures.

[skylsdale]

I have a fish in a tank, that will eventually get released back to the wild

 

I assume there has never been anything but native materials kept in that tank? If at any time during its history you have kept tropicals or stock from other areas, you would actually be MUCH more responsible never releasing that animal, otherwise it could introduce various parasites and diseases into a new habitat to run rampant and affect an entire ecosystem. Most states have laws to help protect against this. Might want to check into that...

[winnker]

I didn't know that u could release fish back into the wild, I thought that they wouldn't know how to hunt for food and die

[Undertheradar]

Depending on the type of fish, being in captivity can have little effect on it's instincts or feeding habits. The 'paima I raised in a 3000gallon pond was such a prehistoric fish that it was impossible to tame or go soft. One day I saw a bunny drinking water from the pond...and the 'paima leaped out to grab it!

[winnker]

cool. that is really good to know. so if I get sick of a fish lol send it home to warmer waters. lol

[Whitten]

Originally posted by skylsdale

I have a fish in a tank, that will eventually get released back to the wild

 

I assume there has never been anything but native materials kept in that tank?  If at any time during its history you have kept tropicals or stock from other areas, you would actually be MUCH more responsible never releasing that animal, otherwise it could introduce various parasites and diseases into a new habitat to run rampant and affect an entire ecosystem.  Most states have laws to help protect against this.  Might want to check into that...

 

No the tank at one time housed a family of spiders....and maybe a few different types of feeder minnows and guppies. I had a leopard gecko in the tank at one time, but it died and then I had to Give Hampton, my Large Mouth Bass, his room. He is now in a 30 gallon, and will be making the transition to a 75 after a while. I imagine that he will grow to a good 5 lbs before I have to release him. Putting him back in a lake with like species will be fine. He is healthy, and has no parasites that can be detected.

I have checked into all the laws and regulations, I have also consulted with one of the finest fisheries schools in the nation on keeping him as a pet. I have done my homework, and I know what risks can be associated with keeping animals. I also know that most of the fish like Ciclids are raised in outdoor ponds, your few rare cases where Africans require certain PH's are raised on something of inground pools, complete with other species of fish, including bass, bream, and carp.

[Undertheradar]

http://www.marineaquatics.net/html/manta_ray.html

 

thanks for the link whitten. BTW, like I thought, these are not manta rays...these are a smaller ray. Mantas are 4'wx4'l at birth.

[winnker]

ok, but they are still pretty.

[DitchPlains]

A Ray even of that size would require a very large aquarium, and probably an aqaurium tank that would require some sort of metal frame or construction material using metal, I doubt any of you can afford a 600+ gallon arcylic aqaurium. So, because of that, it will probably die in cpativity due to the metal in the constructio. Rays, both Mantas and Skates belong to part of the class of Dasyatidae, genus Mobula, sub class (Myliobatinae) Most Rays like sharks contain the Ampullae of Lorenzini allowing them to navigate and find prey, any tank containing Metal like your friends Black Tip Reef shark tank with metal Rebar holding it up, will drive these creatures crazy, and has been related to numerous deaths in captivity. I think whoever is selling that Ray should seriously be questioned in their practices as a fish supplier, they obviously have no idea about the creatures they keep. That Ray is in a glass rectangle tank with no sand bed, which is where most rays (who are bottom feedings unlike the Manta which is a skim feeder) require the sanbed for saftey and habitat. Great job with the storage of that beautiful specimen. I'm sure its feeling right at home in a barebottom glass tank with metal contsrtucted walls....

[skylsdale]

feeder minnows and guppies.

 

That's a cesspool of filth and disease right there: feeder fish. My concern is that something lingering from that is going to attach itself to the bass...and when you dump the bass back into native waters, you introduce those nasties as well.

[Whitten]

Really, you should stop worrying so much. Did you ever stop to consider where feeder minnows come from? Or the fact that most of the diseases common among those fish are present in any lake ecosystem. Lakes are horrindously dirty places. Your comment on cesspool of filth really made me laugh for that reason. Apparently you haven't done a whole lot of research on lakes in my area, and I don't blame you. Disease, filth, and general bacterial condictions are a part of any well established lake. Fish and other animals alike are not going to suffer from the introduction of familiar diseases that are already present in their current ecosystem.

 

Feeder minnows are also used as live bait....and if there was some pressing issue with the use of live bait, I am sure that the DNR would put a stop to the use of them. The truth is that there is no danger to using these animals to feed or to fish with, because the bacterias and other organisms that are present in any lake will dispatch the disease naturally, or the disease will simply not be able to survive as it may only affect certain species. The rare case where a forign disease such as something from say South America being introduced into a lake system and wiping out the inhabitants has been tested and examined at length. That is the reason why most of the aminals that we have here in the states are bred right here. There are governmental laws aginst importation of animals that can contain potentially damaging effects in the US. This the same reason why certain states my have laws againts the sale of certain animals, and why animals such as ferrets have to have innoculations, descentning, sterilization, and so forth. There are ways to protect, and people are not going to be able to single handedly kill an entire lake of inhabitants because they flushed their pet Discus or Flame Angel.

So really don't worry so much about issues like this. It is great that you aware of dangers, but to be self appointed expert on the matter without considering all the issues, it may not go over well with everyone...including me. I made sure that I doing things right when I took my Bass on as a pet. I have done loads of research on this animal, it's habitat, and others that interact with it. The last thing I would want to do would be to kill off an entire population full of them due to neglegence. But the facts that I recieved from my local fisheries school, and other ichtheologists pointed me in the current direction that I am going, and for good reason they deal with these fish every day, and have done the very same thing that I have. The process in which I refer is called "stocking". Lakes are stocked sometimes several times a year, or even over several years. Many different hatcheries and fisheries will be involved each with their own separate specialties in fish, plant life, and other aquatic animals. Often times different breeds of fish from all around can be introduced and flourish without any Ill effects. Fish such as Northern Pike, Walley, and several others have been experiemented with. Each with their own unique diseases, and yet they did not strike the entire enhabitants of the new like with their ills. In one of my local lakes Spotted Bass, a native of South Florida, Large Mouth Bass indiginous to almost any lake in the continetal US, Striper Bass, an incredibly large Bass native to only large lakes, all coexist in the same body of water. They all find thier place and find a natural equlibrium even though they may be from large lakes e around the US or even from places such as South America where some breeds of Striper Bass and Peacock bass hail from.

[Von digity]

Over at The long beach aquarium/aquarium of the pacific they have a stingray touch pool. I really thought it was too small for the large number or rays in there, but the rays didn't seem to mind too much.

 

Rays are such magnificent creatures. When I was in the Yucatan, I went to a bird sanctuary called Isla Contoy. Anyways, there was a giant, and I mean giant, sting ray that would cruise the beach around lunch time. Sure enough, when approached with food, it was friendly. We all took turns hand feeding it and petting it. Good memories. I would never want to keep something with such beauty and intelligence in an aquarium. The only way I could ever justify keeping one as a pet is if it's tail was cut off by a fisherman (commonly happens) and it's only means of defense was gone, making it vulnerable to predation. A few of the stingrays at the longbeach aquarium had their tails removed by fisherman.

 

Sorry, just thought I'd throw in my point of view since this thread has been so thuroughly hijacked.