My Atlantis - Wild & Woolly May 2015 Pictures!

[jedimasterben]

Thanks for your suggestions. I will get the Golden Pearls for the filter feeders. I really want to try to keep it alive. I have read that the blood that oozes from the frozen organisms in cyclopeeze, brine shrimp and the bacteria from the sand bed as well as the refugium help feed filter feeders. I did not mean to suggest that sponges would eat copepods, that would be nice since I have them crawling everywhere! I am looking up the articles that mention these facts to feed Goniopora in his coral propagation business and will post these when I find them. These articles also mention that tanks that run without skimmers ("dirty tanks") do better with organisms that get nutrients directly from the water.

 

 

I have been reading a lot about sponges and it turns out that sponges have many varied needs, some are photosynthetic and some are not.

 

From Advanced Aquarist By James W. Fatherree

 

 

This article is really good by Robert Toonen, Ph. D.

Goniopora and sponges are very, very different in how they feed. I wish you luck with it, but without a constant supply (like a drip system) of phyto and/or other small-particle foods it won't survive.

 

From the first article you quoted:

Starvation

Most aquariums do not contain enough food particles of small enough size to keep a sponge alive. So, they starve to death. Even top-quality plankton-in-a-bottle products that you may add yourself may not help much (or any) in most cases, as what most sponges need is too small.

 

Remember that collar cells feed on particles that are typically smaller than 0.5 micrometers? Well, the phytoplankton in one of the most popular brands of these products ranges from 2 to 12 micrometers. Thus, even the smallest of it is larger than the largest thing an average collar cell can eat. Other similar products may also be fine for many other organisms, but in general they have even larger particles and/or tend to form clumps, and may simply be unsuitable for trying to keep sponges alive. If you intend to try using any such things, it is very important to find out the size of the particles they contain.

 

The next picture is of an orange ball sponge like yours, and mentions that when small they usually survive, but as they grow, they begin to starve to death.

 

What were they feeding it where u got it? I'm curious because it does look cool.

Usually nothing. Most stores and wholesalers don't feed anything like that.

[pschom]

Usually nothing. Most stores and wholesalers don't feed anything like that.

Yeah stupid question... Different thread but as far as draining the frozen cubes of Mysis man I've been doing that for a while now. I definitely am of the opinion that dumping the whole cube in creates excess waste. I had readable nitrates before I started doing that. But whatever works for the user is the way to go.

[jedimasterben]

Yeah stupid question... Different thread but as far as draining the frozen cubes of Mysis man I've been doing that for a while now. I definitely am of the opinion that dumping the whole cube in creates excess waste. I had readable nitrates before I started doing that. But whatever works for the user is the way to go.

All depends on your biofilter - if you just up and start something, your biofilter just can't keep up (especially since denitrifying bacteria never seem to work as quickly as we want them to ), but if you start something slowly and gradually it will build up to meet the new 'load'. If there is a lower-flow place in your tank (50gph or less) grab some Seachem deNitrate media and put it there - I swear by that stuff. Works wonders.

[albertthiel]

Ha! Thank you for looking that up for me. I will add it to my aquarium book. Would you share that Porifera DB link please?

 

The Cinachyrella alloclada arrived fully open and seems very healthy. The color is gorgeous.

 

Found aSponge database

 

http://www.marinespecies.org/porifera/pori...s&id=171291

 

Looks like you found the DB and yes as JediTheMasterBen said .. it needs several feedings day but you may already have figured that out :-)

 

IME sponges are not all that easy to keep long term but good "sponge-keeping" :-) eitallent

[pschom]

All depends on your biofilter - if you just up and start something, your biofilter just can't keep up (especially since denitrifying bacteria never seem to work as quickly as we want them to ), but if you start something slowly and gradually it will build up to meet the new 'load'. If there is a lower-flow place in your tank (50gph or less) grab some Seachem deNitrate media and put it there - I swear by that stuff. Works wonders.

So are you saying that if there is enough flow around the tank then the shrimp juice (or whatever) won't have a chance to settle and therefore will not contaminate the tank and raise nitrates? Makes sense but doesn't it have to get consumed by something? What will eat that stuff?

 

And your also saying that if you slowly increase your bioload the tank will automatically respond?

[jedimasterben]

So are you saying that if there is enough flow around the tank then the shrimp juice (or whatever) won't have a chance to settle and therefore will not contaminate the tank and raise nitrates? Makes sense but doesn't it have to get consumed by something? What will eat that stuff?

 

And your also saying that if you slowly increase your bioload the tank will automatically respond?

As long as there are things to eat that food/waste, it will make its way through the nitrogen cycle. The juice can be filtered out by organisms that can eat stupidly small-micron foods, and it can also stick to other particles in the water column that also get filtered out.

 

And yes, you can continuously increase your bioload slowly and your biofilter will beef up as long as you have enough surface area for them to live. That's why I always recommend people use Seachem Matrix and deNitrate media so they have crazy amounts of surface area for bacteria to colonize. Where most people go wrong is they go WAY too fast with it and the biofilter is overwhelmed. It takes months to truly get established, but once it does, it can populate fairly quickly to adjust to different nutrient loads.

[pschom]

As long as there are things to eat that food/waste, it will make its way through the nitrogen cycle. The juice can be filtered out by organisms that can eat stupidly small-micron foods, and it can also stick to other particles in the water column that also get filtered out.

 

And yes, you can continuously increase your bioload slowly and your biofilter will beef up as long as you have enough surface area for them to live. That's why I always recommend people use Seachem Matrix and deNitrate media so they have crazy amounts of surface area for bacteria to colonize. Where most people go wrong is they go WAY too fast with it and the biofilter is overwhelmed. It takes months to truly get established, but once it does, it can populate fairly quickly to adjust to different nutrient loads.

So (and I'm just asking) why do people remove bio balls?

[jedimasterben]

So (and I'm just asking) why do people remove bio balls?

They don't have a lot of surface area per volume and end up being detritus traps. They also aren't able to house denitrifying bacteria (as their surface area is all external in well-oxygenated water).

 

For example, one liter of Seachem Matrix has more surface area than 170 liters (38 gallons) of bioballs. They also are porous internally and house denitrifying bacteria, as well, but deNitrate is better as it has deeper pores, and when in a super low-flow environment can perform immense denitrification.

[eitallent]

What were they feeding it where u got it? I'm curious because it does look cool.

I just put in a support request asking that very question. I will share the answer to that question when they respond. Their livestock came in vibrant and healthy so I am hoping they fed the sponge. This sponge came in firm, all uniform in color (no grey or dead spots, the pores were open and did not smell.

 

Looks like you found the DB and yes as JediTheMasterBen said .. it needs several feedings day but you may already have figured that out :-)

 

IME sponges are not all that easy to keep long term but good "sponge-keeping" :-) eitallent

 

Thank you for the well wishes. I love a challenge but not at the cost of killing living creatures. I am working hard to learn as much as possible and as fast as possible to give these organisms a fair chance at survival.

 

An example of exellent info from Wet Web Media

Feeding is accomplished by periodically temporarily turning off power filters, if any, and introducing a food-broth in the area around or in the case of larger specimens, into the sponge(s). The actual particles ingested are tiny (microscopic). Mancini suggests liquid foods (Liquifry , fresh juice from mollusks (for human consumption), foods for newly hatched brine shrimp, dried or live Chlorella, and finely divided dry prepared foods. These foods are made into a suspension (I suggest using a blender) with tank water and applied at the animal's surface with a baster or syringe. More frequent (several times daily ideally) feedings are preferable. Omitting a too-clean particulate filter mechanism in systems with considerable sponge bio-mass is endorsed. Cleanliness is not sterility!

 

Again, there are some hermatypic sponge species that derive up to 100% of their nutrition from "making food with light". These organisms' zooxanthellae require intense full-spectrum lighting as other photosynthetic reef life.

 

Summary:

 

Sponges are no longer considered delicate, short-lived, dangerous life forms by reef aquarists. You should recognize that they are an important part of all natural tropical shallow marine environments and encourage them even if only as bioassay organisms, incidental food, and accidental filter adjuncts.

[eitallent]

As long as there are things to eat that food/waste, it will make its way through the nitrogen cycle. The juice can be filtered out by organisms that can eat stupidly small-micron foods, and it can also stick to other particles in the water column that also get filtered out.

 

And yes, you can continuously increase your bioload slowly and your biofilter will beef up as long as you have enough surface area for them to live. That's why I always recommend people use Seachem Matrix and deNitrate media so they have crazy amounts of surface area for bacteria to colonize. Where most people go wrong is they go WAY too fast with it and the biofilter is overwhelmed. It takes months to truly get established, but once it does, it can populate fairly quickly to adjust to different nutrient loads.

 

Thank you for all the input Jedimasterben. I really appreciate all the knowledge you are sharing. The point of the biological filtration is something I am trying to establish. I will look up how I can possibly use the Seachem matrix and deNitrate media so I can safely up the feeding schedule without crashing my tank!

 

As always thanks for your time and constructive input.

[albertthiel]

Thank you for the well wishes. I love a challenge but not at the cost of killing living creatures. I am working hard to learn as much as possible and as fast as possible to give these organisms a fair chance at survival.

Yes wetwebmedia does have a lot of information indeed. And IME the more you know about the life forms you place in your aquarium the greater your chance to keep them successfully become .. Although I do not like the expression itself, it meaning is very true : knowledge = power.

[eitallent]

Yes wetwebmedia does have a lot of information indeed. And IME the more you know about the life forms you place in your aquarium the greater your chance to keep them successfully become .. Although I do not like the expression itself, it meaning is very true : knowledge = power.

I totally agree that the more you learn and know the better control you have over the controlable things around you like healthy tanks.

 

What were they feeding it where u got it? I'm curious because it does look cool.

Here is what the seller replied to my question about what they feed their sponges:

Any type of marine snow or zooplankton is suitable. The sponges are filter feeders, so they will feed on whatever is in the water column and also the light.

 

Not very helpful! I like the advice I got here much better than this. That is why I like this salty family on nano-reef.com. Thanks to all you reefers who help me.

[eitallent]

More peeeectures!

 

Fuge and FTS with a Skipper on top. I moved the sponge into the shade of the arch.

 

Side view with new macros. Feather duster is still fluffy and happy in his spot.

 

I got a new phone and the picture quality is less than I expected!

[albertthiel]

I totally agree that the more you learn and know the better control you have over the controlable things around you like healthy tanks.

And as we all know, and stating the obvious, there is always more to learn ...

[pschom]

Those macros are awesome. Positioned correctly they make it look so real. I gotta get some now. And a photo gorg. Make sure to let us know how they do.

[eitallent]

Those macros are awesome. Positioned correctly they make it look so real. I gotta get some now. And a photo gorg. Make sure to let us know how they do.

I like those macros too. So do the Cerith snails but they just crawled on them with out eating any. I think they were just tasting and decided against it! LOL

The little shaving brush has new growth which shows up a bit greener than the older growth. The larger shaving brush is neat with each sprig ending in a yellow tip like a fiberoptic strand. I got them on sale (they are still on sale) here at saltwaterfish.com

[eitallent]

Hello, Everyone!

 

Sponge update:

 

The sponge's pores seem to be more open and I see more pores opening that were closed when I first put it in the tank. It has developed a redish color on the surface, but the pores remain orange. It is looking more like the pictures I have seen on the net of them in the ocean. Maybe this is good news for the Cheese Puff!

 

I found this picture at reefguide.org which looks very similar to what Puff looks like now.

 

 

 

Here is today's FTS

 

Here is the new Jasmine polyp coral. It has neon green/yellow centers which do not show up in the picture.

[Spirofucci]

Hey, things are really looking nice in there. Skipper cracks me up every time you post a pic of him!

[albertthiel]

Hello, Everyone!

Sponge update:

The sponge's pores seem to be more open and I see more pores opening that were closed when I first put it in the tank. It has developed a redish color on the surface, but the pores remain orange. It is looking more like the pictures I have seen on the net of them in the ocean. Maybe this is good news for the Cheese Puff!

 

I found this picture at reefguide.org which looks very similar to what Puff looks like now.

 

Here is today's FTS

 

Here is the new Jasmine polyp coral. It has neon green/yellow centers which do not show up in the picture.

 

Nice ... Sponge looks good where you placed it IMO .. not too much light and not too heavy flow .. That sponge and a similar one is actually described in my New Book in more detail ..

 

Needs feeding as you probably figured out and spot feeding seems to work best.

 

If I had the space I'd get one too but my tank is too full already and I do not want to overload it so after the book is completed and I am getting close to being there, I may look to upgrade my 20 to a 40B ...

[pschom]

What are you feeding the sponge? How often? My first thought regarding its more open pores is that it's hungry and probably starving, but idk.

[eitallent]

Hey, things are really looking nice in there. Skipper cracks me up every time you post a pic of him!

 

Thanks! He is so sweet. He leaves the new BNGs alone and goes about his business like a respectable fish citizen. Meanwhile the BNGs zing around the tank like little comets.

[eitallent]

What are you feeding the sponge? How often? My first thought regarding its more open pores is that it's hungry and probably starving, but idk.

I ordered some fine filter feeder food online but meanwhile I got what they had at LFS: Kent's MicroVert (smallest particle size they offer) and Kent's Zooplex. I have been spot feeding 1 ml 2 ~ 3x a day.

I read that when sponges are happy and healthy their pores are open. When they are stressed they close up and that is when the highest risk for starvation occurs. If anyone reading this knows differently please speak up. I do not mind constructive, informative conversation!

 

Here is the article from Wet Web Media written by Bob Fenner that I found most helpful.

 

Feeding is accomplished by periodically temporarily turning off power filters, if any, and introducing a food-broth in the area around or in the case of larger specimens, into the sponge(s). The actual particles ingested are tiny (microscopic). Mancini suggests liquid foods (Liquifry , fresh juice from mollusks (for human consumption), foods for newly hatched brine shrimp, dried or live Chlorella, and finely divided dry prepared foods. These foods are made into a suspension (I suggest using a blender) with tank water and applied at the animal's surface with a baster or syringe. More frequent (several times daily ideally) feedings are preferable. Omitting a too-clean particulate filter mechanism in systems with considerable sponge bio-mass is endorsed. Cleanliness is not sterility!

 

Again, there are some hermatypic sponge species that derive up to 100% of their nutrition from "making food with light". These organisms' zooxanthellae require intense full-spectrum lighting as other photosynthetic reef life.

 

Summary:

 

Sponges are no longer considered delicate, short-lived, dangerous life forms by reef aquarists. You should recognize that they are an important part of all natural tropical shallow marine environments and encourage them even if only as bioassay organisms, incidental food, and accidental filter adjuncts.

 

Should you want to keep purposeful sponge material remember to select the tougher aquarium species with some substrate attached, not expose them to air, predatory tankmates.... keep them free from debris and in areas of good circulation.

 

Nice ... Sponge looks good where you placed it IMO .. not too much light and not too heavy flow .. That sponge and a similar one is actually described in my New Book in more detail ..

 

Needs feeding as you probably figured out and spot feeding seems to work best.

 

If I had the space I'd get one too but my tank is too full already and I do not want to overload it so after the book is completed and I am getting close to being there, I may look to upgrade my 20 to a 40B ...

 

Cannot wait to read your book. I am learning a bunch but a lot of it does not stick in my brain at first, second and sometimes even third reading! I wish I had a photographic memory!!

 

I think the sponge is looking alright. Time will tell. ::

[eitallent]

Santa lugged in my monster tank last night. Poor guy I hope he did not get a hernia! This morning I found someone likes it as much as I do.

 

 

We are planning to tile the living room but not right now. So we went ahead and did the tile under the tank because once that monster is up and running there will be no moving it. We still have to grout and add the base boards tonight and then we will be ready to set up the stand and aquarium. I am still undecided about the stand. I am leaning toward a metal frame with decorative wrought iron.

 

Check this out, a metal frame with magnetic panels!

http://www.titanaquatic.com/aquarium-furni...nufacturer.html

 

Instead of panels I may leave it open and add decorative metal accents on the ends:

http://www.decorativeiron.com/products.php...bcategory_id=56

 

This stand has to be worthy of the reef!

[albertthiel]

Cannot wait to read your book. I am learning a bunch but a lot of it does not stick in my brain at first, second and sometimes even third reading! I wish I had a photographic memory!!

 

On the book: Finally getting to the end of it ... now comes the proof reading, and then adding the index and the reference material listing.

 

Expect to finish the book today and then start the proofreading etc ... Looks like it is going to be around 375 pages+ with well over 200 pictures, if not more (have not counted them yet).

 

Pre-ordering will end once I complete the proof reading, so anyone who wants to take advantage of the pre-pub price should order in the next day or two.

 

On your Sponge : based on what I can see it does look really good indeed and waiting to be fed. Hopefully it is getting good water flow in that area so that small food particles that it can feed on are transported to where it is located. Spot feeding real fine foods will help a great deal too. Good luck with it !

 

Santa lugged in my monster tank last night. Poor guy I hope he did not get a hernia! This morning I found someone likes it as much as I do.

 

 

We are planning to tile the living room but not right now. So we went ahead and did the tile under the tank because once that monster is up and running there will be no moving it. We still have to grout and add the base boards tonight and then we will be ready to set up the stand and aquarium. I am still undecided about the stand. I am leaning toward a metal frame with decorative wrought iron.

 

Check this out, a metal frame with magnetic panels!

http://www.titanaquatic.com/aquarium-furni...nufacturer.html

 

Instead of panels I may leave it open and add decorative metal accents on the ends:

http://www.decorativeiron.com/products.php...bcategory_id=56

 

This stand has to be worthy of the reef!

 

That frame with the magnetic panels looks like a real good choice as it allows full access to anything underneath .. and yes your Kitty like the tank too :-) for sure.

[Weetabix7]

The new tank looks really cool!

Current one looks like it's coming along well too.