Self-Sustaining Reef

[Amphiprion1]

Amphiprion1- Thanks again.

 

When I said I was going to dose I meant Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium (the major elements).

 

I am not familiar with how to dose other trace elements though.

 

And I was hoping Co2 wouldn't be necessary.

 

Advice?

 

No worries, CO2 will not be necessary. I was just saying that they use alkalinity in addition to any CO2 in the water. They pull more alkalinity in situations with less CO2, so if you supplement alkalinity, it shouldn't be a problem. Other elements aren't a giant deal--IME, most of them will come from food. You may need to occasionally add iron, but it is also added with food. IME, the grasses are actually a bit more forgiving than macroalgae in terms of available nutrients when you have a decent substrate. As I mentioned earlier, adding a very little bit of mature sand, gunk and all, will help there.

 

FWIW, I don't dose trace elements and only occasionally do a water change. It can range from every few weeks to every other month (or more during times of neglect) for me. I do feed pretty heavily, though, and that would likely make many a bit uncomfortable, especially with SPS. You can still get away with not having to do water changes every single week as long as things are balanced appropriately.

 

On the other hand, I do use a skimmer, due to the large amounts of carbon freed from decaying seagrass leaves, etc, as well as for gas exchange (to regulate pH as uglyfish mentioned). While the skimmer may not always be 100% necessary, especially early on, I do recommend plenty of activated carbon from day one. It will help control some of the DOC from the grasses and algae, as well as keep the water as clear as possible, maximizing incident light (and making happier seagrasses).

[Wizzy]

No worries, CO2 will not be necessary. I was just saying that they use alkalinity in addition to any CO2 in the water. They pull more alkalinity in situations with less CO2, so if you supplement alkalinity, it shouldn't be a problem. Other elements aren't a giant deal--IME, most of them will come from food. You may need to occasionally add iron, but it is also added with food. IME, the grasses are actually a bit more forgiving than macroalgae in terms of available nutrients when you have a decent substrate. As I mentioned earlier, adding a very little bit of mature sand, gunk and all, will help there.

 

FWIW, I don't dose trace elements and only occasionally do a water change. It can range from every few weeks to every other month (or more during times of neglect) for me. I do feed pretty heavily, though, and that would likely make many a bit uncomfortable, especially with SPS. You can still get away with not having to do water changes every single week as long as things are balanced appropriately.

 

On the other hand, I do use a skimmer, due to the large amounts of carbon freed from decaying seagrass leaves, etc, as well as for gas exchange (to regulate pH as uglyfish mentioned). While the skimmer may not always be 100% necessary, especially early on, I do recommend plenty of activated carbon from day one. It will help control some of the DOC from the grasses and algae, as well as keep the water as clear as possible, maximizing incident light (and making happier seagrasses).

 

Thank you very much for all the help

[Old Gregg]

The no oxygen is exactly what you're trying to accomplish so anaerobic bacteria grow. That's the whole point of a deep sandbed

 

But no I haven't ever had a deep sandbed in my tanks

[patback]

Seabass had a crazy deep sand bed if memory serves (6-8"'s??) with sea grass. Maybe you could find that old link and read from his success.

[Amphiprion1]

Seabass had a crazy deep sand bed if memory serves (6-8"'s??) with sea grass. Maybe you could find that old link and read from his success.

here: http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...=241431&hl=

[Wizzy]

The no oxygen is exactly what you're trying to accomplish so anaerobic bacteria grow. That's the whole point of a deep sandbed

 

But no I haven't ever had a deep sandbed in my tanks

 

Oh Ok, I guess I'll have to do some more reading lol.

 

Seabass had a crazy deep sand bed if memory serves (6-8"'s??) with sea grass. Maybe you could find that old link and read from his success.

 

Amphi found it

 

here: http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...=241431&hl=

 

Thanks

[Amphiprion1]

Reading the LED thread, I remember that I have this photo:

 

This ws Eric Borneman's system and was sort of my inspiration, granted his system was very large with 1000w halides.

[brandon429]

The ten year old tank mentioned earlier is getting regular 20% changes

[Wizzy]

Reading the LED thread, I remember that I have this photo:

 

This ws Eric Borneman's system and was sort of my inspiration, granted his system was very large with 1000w halides.

 

That's a cool picture.

 

The seagrass looks very thick.

 

The ten year old tank mentioned earlier is getting regular 20% changes

 

Lol. Thanks for pointing that out.

[brandon429]

I think a telling tale in Erics tank above is try to see any fish in the pic

 

There are some, but you have to try to find then because the bioload to plant ratio is right

 

I see like two chromis maybe...

[loyalhero90]

I kind of have that with my 5 gallon tank. It is definitely smaller than your tank and does not have a refugium but I have not done a water change since I started the aquarium and for some reason I rarely have to dose anything.

I have mangroves, ochtodes, and botryocladia and flame algae (cheato doesn't really grow that well). I have pretty much all soft corals with one hard coral. I have one small clownfish and a peppermint shrimp. I have a 3.5 inch sandbed and high powered LED light fixture.

I can't really say a lot about SPS because I haven't tried them yet but I'd like to think my tank is fairly self sustaining as things can get; it's still a glass box lol. I just do a FW top off every once in a while but I rarely feed anything due to the large amount of pods in the tank. Of course I feed the clownfish and pep but even when I go a little overboard my nitrates are zero.

So I never do water changes, I haven't even used the stuff for dosing except for maybe the Iron and manganese blend and everyone is happy; no nitrates, silicates or phosphate problem and no algae problems at all. So I think it is doable with large amounts of algae (seagrass is a little too finicky for me; caulerpa prolifera works great and gives an illusion of seagrass ). Since I have never really had a nitrate problem( or any nuisance like that) the SPS might be okay since I believe they really do not like dirty water. My water is mostly dirty from plankton and copepods. No skimmer or filter just pump. I can only give my experience instead of instructions because my tank really has no refugium or sump; no skimmer and is really tiny compared to yours and works fine so....I hope this helps.

[Wizzy]

I think a telling tale in Erics tank above is try to see any fish in the pic

 

There are some, but you have to try to find then because the bioload to plant ratio is right

 

I see like two chromis maybe...

 

Eh, I've never liked fish that much anyway.

 

I like things I can frag and sell. That way I can buy more stuff for my reef lol.

 

I'll start slow with my bioload and see where it goes from there.

 

I kind of have that with my 5 gallon tank. It is definitely smaller than your tank and does not have a refugium but I have not done a water change since I started the aquarium and for some reason I rarely have to dose anything.

I have mangroves, ochtodes, and botryocladia and flame algae (cheato doesn't really grow that well). I have pretty much all soft corals with one hard coral. I have one small clownfish and a peppermint shrimp. I have a 3.5 inch sandbed and high powered LED light fixture.

I can't really say a lot about SPS because I haven't tried them yet but I'd like to think my tank is fairly self sustaining as things can get; it's still a glass box lol. I just do a FW top off every once in a while but I rarely feed anything due to the large amount of pods in the tank. Of course I feed the clownfish and pep but even when I go a little overboard my nitrates are zero.

So I never do water changes, I haven't even used the stuff for dosing except for maybe the Iron and manganese blend and everyone is happy; no nitrates, silicates or phosphate problem and no algae problems at all. So I think it is doable with large amounts of algae (seagrass is a little too finicky for me; caulerpa prolifera works great and gives an illusion of seagrass ). Since I have never really had a nitrate problem( or any nuisance like that) the SPS might be okay since I believe they really do not like dirty water. My water is mostly dirty from plankton and copepods. No skimmer or filter just pump. I can only give my experience instead of instructions because my tank really has no refugium or sump; no skimmer and is really tiny compared to yours and works fine so....I hope this helps.

 

Very helpful actually. Makes me feel like my idea isn't totally crazy.

 

Pictures/build thread?

 

Thanks- Wizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzy

[Monsieur Kam]

DIY an upflow algae scrubber and throw that in the sump. That's all, no more water changes. Just clean the filter screen once a week or so and done. Look into it maybe?

[Quantum]

Quantum- I am not too worried about metals or silicate. Also, I would think that ammonia/nitrites would be converted to nitrates which I would then remove.

 

Thanks Everyone -Wizzy

 

yeah you're right i thought we were just naming things that should not be in the aquarium lol

[kgoldy]

I feel famous.

 

For the record, yes, I have a skimmer... but it hasn't been plugged in in over a year. Since then it's been collecting salt creep.

 

July 4th marked my first year of zero water changes. No mechanical filtration... no dosing other than kalkwasser... and two bags of carbon added (and left in there) after particularly rough paly fraggin.

 

I think my key to success, more than anything, is my big HOB fuge. Do you have room for something like that, wizz? The off-the-shelf HOB fuges are crap in my opinion...

[Wizzy]

DIY an upflow algae scrubber and throw that in the sump. That's all, no more water changes. Just clean the filter screen once a week or so and done. Look into it maybe?

 

I have actually been looking into them.

 

I may try it on my nanocube

 

Any tips on how to make one or a link explaining them?

 

yeah you're right i thought we were just naming things that should not be in the aquarium lol

 

Ok-Dokey

 

 

I feel famous.

 

For the record, yes, I have a skimmer... but it hasn't been plugged in in over a year. Since then it's been collecting salt creep.

 

July 4th marked my first year of zero water changes. No mechanical filtration... no dosing other than kalkwasser... and two bags of carbon added (and left in there) after particularly rough paly fraggin.

 

I think my key to success, more than anything, is my big HOB fuge. Do you have room for something like that, wizz? The off-the-shelf HOB fuges are crap in my opinion...

 

Yay, teh masta has arrived.

 

I want to make a HOB fuge (like yours) I just don't know how to do it.

 

Do you have a tutorial on how you did yours or any tips for working with acrylic?

 

I don't have too much DIY experience under my belt yet.

 

Thanks Everyone- Wizzy

[Monsieur Kam]

The new Hang-On-Glass UAS with bubble remover:

 

 

I am building two of them for my 10 gallon and 75 gallon. Everyone who builds them say they work really well. They also say to use 660nm red LEDs instead of a CFL light

 

Forums are found here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=301547

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/forum.php

 

if you decide to build one, good luck.

 

If you have any questions about it you can ask me.

[Wizzy]

I am building two of them for my 10 gallon and 75 gallon. Everyone who builds them say they work really well. They also say to use 660nm red LEDs instead of a CFL light

 

Forums are found here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=301547

http://algaescrubber.net/forums/forum.php

 

if you decide to build one, good luck.

 

If you have any questions about it you can ask me.

 

Thanks for all the information.

 

However, since this would probably go into my 12 gallon nanocube is there a way to make one that I simply stick in the back chamber?

 

I could always scrape the paint off the back, but would rather not if I don't have to.

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[Monsieur Kam]

You're welcome.

 

Unfortunately I can't really think of a way to put it in the chamber without scraping off paint the around the section where the light would go. Shouldn't be a huge deal though, since you won't see the part that is scraped off, it will be under where the filter/light goes. And if you painted with krylon fusion or something similar it should come off pretty easily.

 

The problem I am having right now is getting powerful enough magnets to hold mine up. I rubber coated some magnets which I thought were strong enough with plastidip. Of course they ended up not being strong enough so I am thinking about ordering some neodymium magnets and coating those to hold up my UAS (upflow algae scrubber).

[kgoldy]

Yay, teh masta has arrived.

 

I want to make a HOB fuge (like yours) I just don't know how to do it.

 

Do you have a tutorial on how you did yours or any tips for working with acrylic?

 

I don't have too much DIY experience under my belt yet.

 

Thanks Everyone- Wizzy

 

 

The best tip for working with acrylic... is find a pro to do it for you. Haha. Seriously, it can be a pain in the ass, and that dude who sells on ebay will do it pretty cheaply when you add up your man hours, tools and supplies.

 

Might I suggest you try using a 20 long, and just have a glass guy cut you two holes and some baffles. That's cheap and easy.

[MrAnderson]

first off, i stopped reading after the first 20 or so posts - there were no informed opinions. maybe what i'm going to say has been said and i missed it.

 

anyhow, what you want is possible but you have to be prepared to allow for the system to stabilize long-term, with no intervention or babying or being "active-stupid", i.e. responding to perceived, rather than real, crises.

 

i haven't done a water change on my 30 breeder in my lab for 3 years and the corals are growing like crazy. no sps - just softies and one pagoda cup. just a heater and a powerhead and about 50lbs of what was once really fresh indonesian live rock delivered within 48 hrs of being removed from the reef. it seems like stasis has been achieved.

 

i occasionally get some minor blooms of nuisance algae but they resolve eventually with no intervention, no permanent problems have arisen. i think the key is to trust that the biological components are there and will eventually balance on their own. i also don't think every animal is amenable to this approach - you can always take a survival-of-the-fittest approach to stocking corals, seeing what thrives and what doesn't.

 

it would never win totm (it doesn't have that unnatural "gardened" look like most tanks), but people love how wild looking and completely covered with life it is - there's almost no bare rock. after spending some time diving reefs, i'm happy with how natural it looks.

[Wizzy]

You're welcome.

 

Unfortunately I can't really think of a way to put it in the chamber without scraping off paint the around the section where the light would go. Shouldn't be a huge deal though, since you won't see the part that is scraped off, it will be under where the filter/light goes. And if you painted with krylon fusion or something similar it should come off pretty easily.

 

The problem I am having right now is getting powerful enough magnets to hold mine up. I rubber coated some magnets which I thought were strong enough with plastidip. Of course they ended up not being strong enough so I am thinking about ordering some neodymium magnets and coating those to hold up my UAS (upflow algae scrubber).

 

Keep me updated on those magnets

 

The best tip for working with acrylic... is find a pro to do it for you. Haha. Seriously, it can be a pain in the ass, and that dude who sells on ebay will do it pretty cheaply when you add up your man hours, tools and supplies.

 

Might I suggest you try using a 20 long, and just have a glass guy cut you two holes and some baffles. That's cheap and easy.

 

Link to the guy on eBay?

 

I feel comfortable cutting holes/baffling (even though I've never done it), but I don't think I have room for a 20 long behind my tank.

 

In my mind I was hoping the HOB refugium would really hang on the back of my tank without extra support.

 

Will I need to put something under it for the weight?

 

first off, i stopped reading after the first 20 or so posts - there were no informed opinions. maybe what i'm going to say has been said and i missed it.

 

anyhow, what you want is possible but you have to be prepared to allow for the system to stabilize long-term, with no intervention or babying or being "active-stupid", i.e. responding to perceived, rather than real, crises.

 

i haven't done a water change on my 30 breeder in my lab for 3 years and the corals are growing like crazy. no sps - just softies and one pagoda cup. just a heater and a powerhead and about 50lbs of what was once really fresh indonesian live rock delivered within 48 hrs of being removed from the reef. it seems like stasis has been achieved.

 

i occasionally get some minor blooms of nuisance algae but they resolve eventually with no intervention, no permanent problems have arisen. i think the key is to trust that the biological components are there and will eventually balance on their own. i also don't think every animal is amenable to this approach - you can always take a survival-of-the-fittest approach to stocking corals, seeing what thrives and what doesn't.

 

it would never win totm (it doesn't have that unnatural "gardened" look like most tanks), but people love how wild looking and completely covered with life it is - there's almost no bare rock. after spending some time diving reefs, i'm happy with how natural it looks.

 

Thanks for the informed opinion

 

Your tank sounds very cool (pictures?) and when you say "lab" are you a scientist of some sorts?

 

It sounds like you must have gotten good HH and Rock (a.k.a. biological components).

 

I have all the basic HH like stomatella, bristle worms, copepods, etc- but for the tank I'm setting up I am going with an 8" DSB so I will need to add sand burrowing worms/creatures (I think).

 

I would just buy a bag of Live Sand to seed it, but the first/last time I did that I got this algae (I believe Dasycladales, but not the nice kind with the cups- commonly called mermaid's cup) that ended up destroying my tank (I did get some awesome worms though).

 

So, I was thinking about ordering some critters online, but don't know where to purchase them- Kgoldy probably knows since he ordered from them all. I just can't find the place where he reviewed them.

 

On the system you described do you employ substrate/what depth?

 

Also, do you dose anything/how often?

 

Finally, how long would you say you waited to achieve stabilization?

 

Did you ever do a water change on the system when you first started it?

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[kgoldy]

Link to the guy on eBay?

 

I feel comfortable cutting holes/baffling (even though I've never done it), but I don't think I have room for a 20 long behind my tank.

 

In my mind I was hoping the HOB refugium would really hang on the back of my tank without extra support.

 

Will I need to put something under it for the weight?

 

 

Google "Advance Acrylics" and it'll come up. Here's a recent Nano-Reef user review on his experience with them.

 

 

I would be careful about trying to hang a ton of weight (a larger HOB fuge than off the shelf) on your tank... Creating legs to support the thing is going to be the easiest part of any DIY fuge. No reason to stress the glass of your tank in an awkward way, unless you like wet floors.

[milk]

DIY an upflow algae scrubber and throw that in the sump. That's all, no more water changes. Just clean the filter screen once a week or so and done. Look into it maybe?

 

This is what I run essentially on my tank - i think I explained it once somwhere in my tank thread - but basically the overflow plumbs down to the sump and trickles over the algae scrubber screen (roughed up knitting screen) which has 2 fluorescent bulbs pointing on it. It then dribbles down into the sump/refugium which is stuffed with LR, macro algae and aiptasia. I have peppermint shrimp in the display tank that love eating aiptasia, so not a problem, but aiptasia are great nutrient absorbers.

 

water plumbs back up into the display.. thats it. I clean the algae screen every 2 weeks and it takes only a few minutes. I still do water changes every 1.5-2 weeks to replace trace elements, but I suppose I could just dose. This is the method that has been running my reef for 7 months and it has really worked for me. Little maintenance, plus all the extra nutrient and food in the water column keeps all the coral happy. Nitrates, phosphates and ammonia are always 0. Thanks algae! - btw, check out algaescrubbers dot net... they have loads of build designs.. cost me less than $30 to put together.

 

it seems like stasis has been achieved.

 

i think the key is to trust that the biological components are there and will eventually balance on their own. i also don't think every animal is amenable to this approach - you can always take a survival-of-the-fittest approach to stocking corals, seeing what thrives and what doesn't.

 

it would never win totm (it doesn't have that unnatural "gardened" look like most tanks), but people love how wild looking and completely covered with life it is - there's almost no bare rock. after spending some time diving reefs, i'm happy with how natural it looks.

 

beautiful!

[Monsieur Kam]

This is what I run essentially on my tank - i think I explained it once somwhere in my tank thread - but basically the overflow plumbs down to the sump and trickles over the algae scrubber screen (roughed up knitting screen) which has 2 fluorescent bulbs pointing on it. It then dribbles down into the sump/refugium which is stuffed with LR, macro algae and aiptasia. I have peppermint shrimp in the display tank that love eating aiptasia, so not a problem, but aiptasia are great nutrient absorbers.

 

water plumbs back up into the display.. thats it. I clean the algae screen every 2 weeks and it takes only a few minutes. I still do water changes every 1.5-2 weeks to replace trace elements, but I suppose I could just dose. This is the method that has been running my reef for 7 months and it has really worked for me. Little maintenance, plus all the extra nutrient and food in the water column keeps all the coral happy. Nitrates, phosphates and ammonia are always 0. Thanks algae! - btw, check out algaescrubbers dot net... they have loads of build designs.. cost me less than $30 to put together.

 

What you are explaining is a waterfall algae scrubber, same concept but I think building an upflow scrubber would be easier, because there isn't really any plumbing involved. More of just adding an air pump, light, and a container. Same concept though. I am glad to hear it is working out for you. Once I get done with my 75 gallon lighting DIY I am building a larger algae scrubber for that tank. I can't wait to have it up and running again.