Self-Sustaining Reef

[Wizzy]

I want to create as close to a maintenance free tank as possible, while still keeping SPS, etc.

 

For me, this means cutting down/eliminating WC's and getting rid of the need for as much extra equipment as possible (skimmers, GFO, carbon, etc).

 

The only way I can think to do this is employing large amounts of biological filtration.

 

In order to test this (keeping in mind money/space constraints) I want to set up a 55 gallon reef with 20 gallon sump and a HOB refugium (chaeto/mangroves for fun).

 

The DT would have a 4" DSB with a central rock structure w/corals.

 

The area around the rock would be open and have seagrass growing in it- this would hopefully be an attractive way to export nutrients.

 

The sump would be for whatever equipment I need (skimmer, heater, etc).

 

Please advise on anything you think may help me- seagrass care/growth rates, DSB maintenance, lighting, replacing essential elements, etc.

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[gabe3eb]

If this question springs from you not being good at regular maintenance, then you are asking the wrong questions. The only other viable question should be, "how much would it cost to fully automate a tank."

 

Stocking choices alone wont get you there. Serious money would need to be spent on buying some really nice equipment.

[Wizzy]

If this question springs from you not being good at regular maintenance, then you are asking the wrong questions. The only other viable question should be, "how much would it cost to fully automate a tank."

 

Stocking choices alone wont get you there. Serious money would need to be spent on buying some really nice equipment.

 

My question isn't derived from my inability to maintain a reef aquarium the way most hobbyists do.

 

I have looked at many types of automation and filtration and feel that I have a better than average understanding about reef aquariums.

 

My question comes from the fact that I have seen a few people here and there create successful aquariums using large amounts of biological filtration with little to no WC's or other maintenance.

 

I want input on how to set-up and maintain such a system.

 

In a nutshell I want a more natural/self-sustaining system that doesn't need me to perform weekly water changes and constantly fine tune it.

 

Not to discredit anyone who runs their aquarium that way (I have seen many beautiful examples of it), but that kind of tank isn't for me.

 

-Wizzy

[MikeTR]

I probably have some of the best equipment for my 180 and still plan on doing biweekly water changes just to simply replace trace elements but i can probably get away with once a month. So the things we need to eliminate from an established reef are: phosphates, nitrates, and dissolved organics, all of which lead to nuisance algae and cyano. A fuge will help with phosphates along with a gfo reactor. Sulfur denitrifier or bio pellets will handle your nitrates and you'll need one heck of a badass skimmer to remove dissolved organics. You'll also need a reactor to tumble some carbon periodically to remove yellowing from the water. All these will go a long way in reducing the amount of water changes needed. With sps you are going to need to dose eventually.

 

Still gonna need to change filters and clean skimmer cup weekly. Pump cleaning every 2 months. Powerheads cleaned as needed. Thorough cleaning of the skimmer body twice a year.

[andrewkw]

instead of getting rid of equipment it would be better to get self sustaining equipment. A skimmer with a self cleaning head.

 

Mangroves would be better then cheato since it would not require pruning but some sort of auto mister would be needed for the leaves, plus you'd need some netting over the actual leaves to prevent the dead ones from falling in. Mangroves take up a lot of magnesium so you'd certainly need to dose mag in addition to ca and alk if you're not planning on doing water changes. Instead of using the typical 1 gallon jugs and refilling them every month or so you could use 5 gallon jugs and only mix new chemicals once or twice a year..

 

Obviously you can run a reef without regular water changes, people out there do, however they are doing a lot more then just not doing water changes in most (probably all) cases.

[Reeftech]

There is an article in the new reef hobbyist mag that reviews a 10 year old tank that is close to what you are asking.

 

http://www.reefhobbyistmagazine.com/downlo...f/version23.pdf

[Amphiprion1]

I want to create as close to a maintenance free tank as possible, while still keeping SPS, etc.

 

For me, this means cutting down/eliminating WC's and getting rid of the need for as much extra equipment as possible (skimmers, GFO, carbon, etc).

 

The only way I can think to do this is employing large amounts of biological filtration.

 

In order to test this (keeping in mind money/space constraints) I want to set up a 55 gallon reef with 20 gallon sump and a HOB refugium (chaeto/mangroves for fun).

 

The DT would have a 4" DSB with a central rock structure w/corals.

 

The area around the rock would be open and have seagrass growing in it- this would hopefully be an attractive way to export nutrients.

 

The sump would be for whatever equipment I need (skimmer, heater, etc).

 

Please advise on anything you think may help me- seagrass care/growth rates, DSB maintenance, lighting, replacing essential elements, etc.

 

Thanks- Wizzy

 

Hmm, it is a reasonable attempt at a lower maintenance system, but it won't be zero maintenance. Having a very large plant/algae biomass relative to animal biomass is a step in the right direction. Adequate and even very strong light will also help in that regard, which is also helpful with seagrasses.

 

There will be definite maintenance as far as both seagrass and algae go, since you will have to thin them from time to time (sometimes often) to simulate grazing. Growth rates on most algae will be significantly faster. Seagrass growth rates, on the other hand, are somewhat to significantly slower depending upon a number of factors. If conditions are ideal, some genera, like Halophila, can be extremely prolific, making reasonable candidates for nutrient export. This will also necessitate much more frequent maintenance. Genera like Thalassia grow much more slowly and only make a difference in large numbers, but can go much longer without disturbing the substrate or worrying about compaction. They are the most widely known genus, though, and are usually what most people think of when they think of seagrass.

 

Additionally, care for seagrasses is a different, complex subject altogether. After keeping them for a while, I've noticed definite trends, advantages, and difficulties, as well. Firstly, there are a handful of things I've noticed that grows seagrasses well (there are various opinions, but I've recreated good results enough that I can recommend this):

 

1) Strong water motion--don't skimp here. Some recommend the opposite, but IME, the thicker, more vigorous growth results from good water motion. This also keeps the sandbed cleaner and keeps it from becoming completely covered in dead leaves, the detritus that ensues, and ultimately cyanobacteria. While this is precisely what happens in the wild, I don't consider it as desirable in most aquariums. This also presents a problem with DSBs, as it will eventually choke out much of the life in them.

 

2) Strong light--reasonable amounts. Multiple T5, stronger LED fixtures, and MH (no less than 150-175w) are my recommendation in the vast majority of cases. Anything from 5500K to 14000K works for most. I personally like 10K and have equivalent results when using 6500K, which is much more yellow.

 

3) Good substrate--I like to use a mix of grades, trending toward fine/very fine, including about 5% mud mixed in. Adding a very small amount (say another 5% or less) established substrate can help jumpstart things, but isn't completely necessary unless you have something like Thalassia or Syringodium.

 

4) Pruning--this is absolutely necessary and I mean above and below the substrate level. If they are left to their own devices, disease and loss of vigor follow, along with compacted, dead sand beds and lots of cyanobacteria. The same is true for most plants, though. The frequency will vary by species, with Halophila being the most prolific (IME), needing potentially semi-monthly pruning in the fastest growth scenarios. I'd say from there, in order, Halodule, Syringodium, and Thalassia are slower and more manageable (but less useful for quick export/assimilation). You should also remove dead leaves when/where possible. Older-lived leaves, such as those from Thalassia, contain substantial amounts of nutrients are carbon.

 

Also, while a dynamic system, DSBs are not maintenance-free. You don't have to and shouldn't siphon them, but they do require work of different kinds. This mostly amounts to good water motion across the surface, generous feeding (I use both fish foods and micro foods, like baby brine shrimp and phytoplankton), and occasional "recharges" of infauna. The more generous you are about feeding (without a total decline in water quality, of course), the less often you'll likely need those recharges, which can be expensive. Also, reiterating the pruning necessity for seagrass, if left alone, they can choke out an otherwise completely healthy sand bed, making it more like the thick beds you find in the wild. Removing leaf litter is also helpful here in preventing the bed from being clogged.

 

Whew, that was a lot and much longer than I expected. If anything needs clarification, let me know. There is actually a lot more information I could cram in, but I can't recall everything from the top of my head.

[uglyfish]

I want input on how to set-up and maintain such a system.

In a nutshell I want a more natural/self-sustaining system that doesn't need me to perform weekly water changes and constantly fine tune it.

 

That was my goal with my first tank. I have a 10g display with a 29g refugium. (backwards)

The refugium has a good bit of live rock and DSB with plenum. I have various types of macro algae: large amount of chaeto, some halimeda, maiden's brushes, and several other interesting algae I've found along the way. Lots of macros. Many sponges in the refugium.

 

I don't run skimmer, carbon or gfo - it's totally au naturale. I change water once in a while... like 2-3 months. In truth, I'm focused on my SPS tank and I've just let the other tank slide. But while I've left it alone, I'm noticing changes happening naturally. I see various types of algae appearing, taking over, then receding on their own. I have only a few corals in the display tank but they are doing very well - candy cane, kenya tree, mushrooms, xenia (no sps). It takes time for the natural filters to grow. And I suggest adding live rock from various sources, and at various times to diversify the population of critters. I feed only my single clownfish and anemone. Feeding has to be light in this type of setup.

 

My new sps tank is equipment heavy - powerful skimmer, biopellets, etc... It's easier this way. The "technology" tank was good to go in a month... perfect for the impatient aquarist.

 

But I think it's possible to go for very long periods without water changes if you can suffer through the awful periods where the tank goes through the phases of achieving biological stability. It's a very slow process. I doubt you will be able to add SPS before 1 year, possibly longer. And once you add SPS you'll need to dose cal/alk/mag or kalk.

 

You need lots of stuff on the bottom of the food chain and very little on the top of the food chain. One fish, and skeleton cleanup crew.

 

One tip on the DSB - I wouldn't pile too many rocks all over it. It seems to do better when you have some open sandbed area. And DSB needs good flow across it to help remove build up. I noticed a marked improvement and decrease in no3 just by increasing flow. Also to note, with lots of macros, PH swings are significant so aeration is important. I aerate with a air pump and stone.

[steviejitsu]

+1 to MikeTR's suggestions.

 

You will need a couple of automating machines/devices, as you probably assumed.

For optimal SPS color and growth, I would get automatic dosers.

For nutrient/nitrate export, you can do the vokda/skimmer method, but that requires dosing almost daily.

 

Another method you can do is the algae scrubber. However, that requires weekly cleaning. But with that method, I know someone who went 4 years without a waterchange. He has all kinds of coral, SPS, and even an anemone. The SPS browned a bit, but that's because he didn't dose. He even had a lot of fish.

[Quantum]

I probably have some of the best equipment for my 180 and still plan on doing biweekly water changes just to simply replace trace elements but i can probably get away with once a month. So the things we need to eliminate from an established reef are: phosphates, nitrates, and dissolved organics, all of which lead to nuisance algae and cyano. A fuge will help with phosphates along with a gfo reactor. Sulfur denitrifier or bio pellets will handle your nitrates and you'll need one heck of a badass skimmer to remove dissolved organics. You'll also need a reactor to tumble some carbon periodically to remove yellowing from the water. All these will go a long way in reducing the amount of water changes needed. With sps you are going to need to dose eventually.

 

Still gonna need to change filters and clean skimmer cup weekly. Pump cleaning every 2 months. Powerheads cleaned as needed. Thorough cleaning of the skimmer body twice a year.

 

+nitrite, ammonia, xenia, silicate, metals, etc.

[Wizzy]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

 

Due to the amount of information presented I will be taking the time to compose worthy responses.

 

It may take me a few posts to reply to everyone.

 

MikeTR- I had assumed that macro algaes took in all nutrients (nitrates, phosphates, etc). But you're saying they only consume phosphates?

 

I plan on either running dosing pumps, kalkwasser in my ATO, or a calcium reactor (depending on my needs) to replace elements in the water. I understand that certain maintenance can't be avoided and I know that I will need to service my equipment.

 

andrewkw- Good points. From what I have heard however, mangroves grow at a snail's pace compared to the growth you see with chaeto?

 

I was planning on getting them simply, because I have always wanted them. Thanks for pointing out the magnesium consumption though- I wasn't aware they consumed that element in particular.

 

Reeftech- Thanks for the link. Seems like there is a lot of good info in it. I will take some time later to read it more thoroughly.

 

Bluprntguy- That is still being decided as I read the responses this thread is generating. I will probably start without a skimmer, but add one later on if I see a need.

 

Do you really think that I need to have approximately 70% of my total system volume as a dedicated refugium?

 

I was thinking somewhere in the 30% range would be sufficient.

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[patback]

Tired so forgive me of it was said already, but i have heard (not experienced) that sea grass is very hard to get to start growing. Also, check out kgoldy. He hasn't done a water change in well over a year I believe, using mainly chaeto in a very, very large "hob".

 

While is tank is great, the only thing i see bad about it is trace elements. Check out the back of a salt bucket. There are lots of stuff in such minuscule amounts that arguably do a lot for coral, yet is close to impossible to dose.

[MikeTR]

+nitrite, ammonia, xenia, silicate, metals, etc.

xenia? tsk tsk.. you shouldn't be putting silicates or heavy metals in your tank if you're using RO/DI. I dont need to remove nitrites or ammonia, bacteria does that for you and converts it to nitrate. A fuge won't necessarily be enough to remove all your nitrates.

[Wizzy]

Amphiprion1- I understand that maintenance will be required- "Zero-Maintenance" is simply a goal to strive for.

 

The species I was looking at growing are Shoal Grass as a tall background plant and Star Grass as the main filler- thoughts?

 

I have pretty much said goodbye to ever using bulbs again and so a DIY LED build is probably in my future. I like the look of 10k as well and so I will try and find out what LED's will create that spectrum.

 

Do you think it is a good idea to go DSB or should I use a shallower sandbed? I wanted to test the effectiveness of a DSB in this tank, but if the seagrass will inhibit its effectiveness I don't know if it's a good idea anymore.

 

Do you have a specific brand you recommend as far as substrate goes (both sand and mud)?

 

I am fine with pruning- I kept a few planted FW tanks and so I'm used to having to prune a lot. When you say below the substrate level does that just mean pulling out excess plants (roots and all)?

 

If you remember anything else please let me know- I want all the info I can get.

 

uglyfish- I don't see a lot of plenum style DSB- what made you do it that way?

 

Your tank sounds like another example of what I want to do. I am OK with waiting for my tank to mature if it means a healthier system.

 

Thanks for the tip about DSB. I like minimalistic rock scapes anyway- more zen/modern feeling.

 

I will be sure to monitor my PH/do something to buffer it.

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[Wizzy]

steve hwang- As far as replacing lost elements goes I will probably be using dosing pumps.

 

I have wanted to try the vodka/skimmer method for a while. May be an excuse for me to buy a huge skimmer.

 

I am also interested in utilizing an algae scrubber, but probably won't be the first thing I try.

 

Quantum- I am not too worried about metals or silicate. Also, I would think that ammonia/nitrites would be converted to nitrates which I would then remove.

 

patback- From what I have read getting seagrass established is like a 6 month process lol.

 

Kgoldy's tank is one of the main reasons I want to try something like this.

 

Good point on trace elements that are hard to add.

 

However, I thought that stuff like that could be added from the little bottles that places like Kent sell?

 

MikeTR- I am hoping that a large enough fuge/DSB will be enough- possibly in combination with a skimmer/reactors. The main maintenance I don't like are WC's.

 

Bluprntguy- So if I had a refugium about as large as my display that would be about 50% total system volume.

 

So maybe 30% is just on the low end and in combination with a protein skimmer and reactors would be successful?

 

Thanks for stimulating my brain Blu

 

Thanks Everyone -Wizzy

[Chrisl1976]

Why not just automate water changes much like we do with ATO. Schedule a dosing pump to pull out (for example) a gallon a day and replace it with fresh saltwater like we do with our ATO systems. You could also have your supplements added at the same time.

 

I would guess that that code for something like a Reef Angel controller could be easily written.

[Wizzy]

Why not just automate water changes much like we do with ATO. Schedule a dosing pump to pull out (for example) a gallon a day and replace it with fresh saltwater like we do with our ATO systems. You could also have your supplements added at the same time.

 

I would guess that that code for something like a Reef Angel controller could be easily written.

 

1. Space constraints- I can't have a large vat of water/an empty container sitting around.

 

2. Salt costs money- I'd rather spend money on trying to create a more self-sustaining reef.

[JamesHL88]

maintanence free reef!

[patback]

1. Space constraints- I can't have a large vat of water/an empty container sitting around.

 

2. Salt costs money- I'd rather spend money on trying to create a more self-sustaining reef.

Everything you should be dosing with out water changes has got to be equal to or more than a big bucket of salt. Automation is a great way to easily take care of a reef, but short of buying corals and dropping them immediatly in the toilet, it is the worst way possible to save money on a reef.

 

+1 on the space constraints though.

[Chrisl1976]

So basically you want your cake and expect to be able to eat it to?

 

Why not just hire a Aquarium Maintenance company and save yourself the dead stock?

 

Short of that ^^^^^^ No matter what you do, there is going to be daily/weekly maintenance

[Wizzy]

maintanence free reef!

 

No.

 

Everything you should be dosing with out water changes has got to be equal to or more than a big bucket of salt. Automation is a great way to easily take care of a reef, but short of buying corals and dropping them immediatly in the toilet, it is the worst way possible to save money on a reef.

 

+1 on the space constraints though.

 

I plan on dosing.

 

So basically you want your cake and expect to be able to eat it to?

 

Why not just hire a Aquarium Maintenance company and save yourself the dead stock?

 

Short of that ^^^^^^ No matter what you do, there is going to be daily/weekly maintenance

 

I don't think either of you understand.

 

This isn't about saving money.

 

There are aquariums that utilize biological filtration and don't need water changes very often if ever.

 

Kgoldy's tank for example.

 

They have other types of maintenance they need to perform, but water changes aren't one of them.

 

I like that type of aquarium and am asking for advice on how to set one up.

[Amphiprion1]

Amphiprion1- I understand that maintenance will be required- "Zero-Maintenance" is simply a goal to strive for.

 

The species I was looking at growing are Shoal Grass as a tall background plant and Star Grass as the main filler- thoughts?

 

I have pretty much said goodbye to ever using bulbs again and so a DIY LED build is probably in my future. I like the look of 10k as well and so I will try and find out what LED's will create that spectrum.

 

Do you think it is a good idea to go DSB or should I use a shallower sandbed? I wanted to test the effectiveness of a DSB in this tank, but if the seagrass will inhibit its effectiveness I don't know if it's a good idea anymore.

 

Do you have a specific brand you recommend as far as substrate goes (both sand and mud)?

 

I am fine with pruning- I kept a few planted FW tanks and so I'm used to having to prune a lot. When you say below the substrate level does that just mean pulling out excess plants (roots and all)?

 

If you remember anything else please let me know- I want all the info I can get.

 

Sounds like a good plan on the grass species. The main issue will be the availability on the stargrass. It is available only sporadically from retailers and only a handful of hobbyists i know of have it (I do not, unfortunately).

 

Neither species requires a deep sand bed, unless you want one. DSBs are fascinating in their own right--you just have to contemplate if you want to do the different sort of maintenance on one (and the additional work when factoring in the grass). You will have to prune in sections of the bed regularly to prevent too much disturbance.

 

As far as brands go, I kinda use several. Most of my sand is from Marcorocks, which is actually a mix of aragonitic and silica sands and is mostly fine. There is also some Nature's Ocean aragonite, even less Caribsea seaflor grade, and a bit of rubble and shells. For the mud, I used Fiji Mud. As far as the grasses are concerned, I've had good luck with a variety of substrates and grain sizes. Finer sizes are easier to plant grasses in, though.

 

Regarding pruning, they have substantial rhizome networks under the substrate (think Crytocoryne) that must be removed to prevent compaction, etc. The can and do compete with each other, too, so pruning keeps each species in check. If left alone, one species will slow or stop growing, allowing the other to take over. As the pioneer species (like the species you want) die, it enriches the substrate and clears the way for climax species, like Thalassia, which are more demanding. You likely don't want to allow that enrichment, though.

 

Edit: good that you plan to dose. Seagrasses can potentially utilize a lot of bicarbonate/carbonate alkalinity. They use it to fill their carbon needs in addition to CO2.

[Chrisl1976]

I don't think either of you understand.

 

 

I know exactly what you are trying to do. Basically, you are trying to save yourself the time and expense of water changes correct?

 

So what is the cost break down of the elaborate filtration systems along with the dosing systems and monthly dosing supplies VS the monthly cost of salt for water changes? For some reason I find it hard to believe its not going to be more cost effective to mix salt than to have to dose for every depleted element you get out of fresh mixed saltwater.

[Old Gregg]

a 4 inch deep sandbed really isn't a deep sandbed. Shoot for 6 inches or more. Make sure there is great flow along the sand bed so detritus doesn't settle. Someone else mentioned not overstocking with rocks to keep the flow up and I'd have to agree.

 

If you don't want to do water changes. Stock the tank very lightly in corals and in fish. More of a minimalistic approach. Less organisms to use up trace elements needs less trace elements need to be replaced This would also go for chaeto or any other sort of macro algae. Anything that is grown for purposes to reduce nitrate/phosphate also uses up other elements that corals need. So get a good skimmer instead.

 

You will be needing dosing pumps for sps... unless you do it by hand which basically defeats the purpose of a self sustaining. So does dosers but at least you're doing less work

[Wizzy]

Amphiprion1- Thanks again.

 

When I said I was going to dose I meant Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium (the major elements).

 

I am not familiar with how to dose other trace elements though.

 

And I was hoping Co2 wouldn't be necessary.

 

Advice?

 

Chrisl1976- As I said before, this isn't about saving money. I guess I am trying to save time by not doing wc's though.

 

Think of it more as an adventure away from the normal practices of reefing.

 

I want to try something different and see if by utilizing biological filtration and replacing elements lost I can create a functioning reef.

 

Other people have done it- it just isn't as well documented or supported as constant water changes are.

 

Bluprntguy- Yes, but my total system volume will still be around 80+ gallons when it's all set up. So it's not a nano. He only doses kalkwasser in his ATO and doesn't have a skimmer/reactors except maybe carbon.

 

I guess I made my topic too general.

 

And the reason I chose the title is because the goal is a Maintenance Free Reef even though it is probably an unattainable goal.

 

I guess a title change is in order.

 

Old Gregg- Are you saying that from personal experience? Because everything I have read suggests that anything more than about 5" will create areas where there is no oxygen and become toxic?

 

I agree with everything else you said though.

 

Thanks.