Eric Borneman's Elegance Coral Project

[LiQuiD]

Well, I rarely post anymore, due to debates on issues that just get me going for no reason, and ending up wishing I had never opened my mouth in the first place.

 

I decided to read this thread and see where it was going. DRZL, It is refreshing to see intelligent replies with a realist attitude to the goings on of our planet.

 

Here is the way I see it. If there are any old time reefers reading this, you will know exactly what I mean. Several years back (maybe just over 5), this hobby was quite small. LFS's mostly sold freshwater fish and the few that had saltwater had mostly fish due to the fact that the knowledge base on how to keep reefs was minimal. If anybody here remembers RC several years back, they would remember a time with less members then nano-reef, yet the spread of knowledge was starting. What I am getting at is this, when elegance were newly being imported and sold, they were being bought by the hobbyist that had been doing it for a while and had stable systems running for some time. Since then, the hobby has grown exponentially, and there are basically more "noobs" in the hobby then were once experienced hobbyists. In turn, the guy who reads a few threads on RC or here for that matter, had gone out, bought themselves an elegance coral, and dropped it into there 2 month old tank destined for certain doom. In turn, the threads started popping up about the dieing corals, and it would seem that the corals are "different" from the past and are now dying. I think the fact of the matter is that too many inexperienced reefers are buying them and they are passing due to such inexperience. I could be wrong here, but I don't think so. A friend had added an elegance just over a year ago to his tank and it is thriving. I do not own one myself but feel if I purchased one and added it to the right tank, in the right position, that mine would thrive as well. However, the guy that was buy last week to buy a frag off me, I feel would have the poor coral meet its demise in a matter of weeks.

 

What was once several hundred experienced hobbyists is now tens of thousands of "noobs", and you wonder why there are more and more threads about the elegance dieing.

 

You want research? Buy 2 elegance corals, put one in a large established tank of at least a year in the running, and plop the other in a 2 month old nano. I bet I could tell you which one would die first.

 

As an example, think about clams. Once clams did well in the advanced marine aquarium hobbyists tanks. Now, every nano reefer wants to try a Maxima under his PC's with no food in a new tank and they are dieing. Should we all ban together to find out why so many clams that are bought nowadays are having such a high mortality rate? No, just think about it for a spell, it will all make sense.

 

That felt good. It has been a while since I posted on the subject of aquaria. Sorry for the rant.

[nalbar]

IMO the best analogy to reef destruction is the herpitile (reptiles, amphibians) trade. i was involved with herps (mainly reptiles) for many many years. at the beginning reproduction of herps in captivity was a complete mystery, and many thought these mysteries would NEVER be solved. almost all herps had to be collected from the wild, many times requiring the tearing down of rock piles or removing the bark from trees, destroying herp habitat. while this caused an impact on the populations it paled in comparison to habitat destruction from deforestation, pollution, and other man made problems. this caused discussion (just like this reef discussion) about impact. but market forces are what they are. interest in reptiles exploded in the late 80’s and 90’s. but that also brought more interest in successful reproduction in captivity, because a market for these ‘products’ (yes, they are products) became profitable. suddenly the mysteries of bearded dragons, chameleons, almost every kind of gecko, arrow frogs, and many many kinds of snakes were solved. it is interesting to note that the bearded dragon was originally SMUGGLED out of Australia, completely breaking the law, as ALL animals in australia are protected from export. ironically though, these first smuggles LESSENED later smuggling, because reproduction in captivity made smuggling cost prohibited.

 

but what also happened is ‘easy’ herpes were introduced to reptile ‘noobs’. the ‘recipe’ for successful keeping was solved, and when given the choice of ‘easy’ and ‘difficult’, the buying public voted with their dollars. the sudden popularity of herpes thusly had a far more limited impact on wild populations than would have been thought. of course habitat destruction continues as the REAL force in species obliteration. but none of this could have happened without species falling into (sometimes illegally) herpetoculturist (NOT herpetologist! virtually all success was done in ‘amateur’ homes) hands.

 

long story! but the bottom line is this;

 

i can see these very same market forces at work in reef keeping. in fact, they are talikng place in hobbyist prop tanks all over the world

 

the reefs are going. many many animals will be gone from habitat destruction. unless the ‘recipe’ for successful propagation in captivity is found many animals will cease to exist. plus ‘easy’ options MUST be found to meet the market demand for animals. nobody knows which animals these will be, and which are not worth keeping. but if any EXPERIENCED, REPUTABLE reefer is trying to solve these problems they are part of the SOLUTION, not the problem!

 

nalbar

[brahm]

rah rah! nalbar sniff.

[DRZL-sauras]

Thank you Liquid.

What is funny is that yesterday i was at a fellow reefers house and we were staring at his 220G..And I see an amazing elegance coral there just hanging out. I ask him how long hes had it and he says about 8 months now. Guess I missed seeing that one. Hes what i called an experienced hobbyist not because of his volume of water. But because of the real experience hes had(reefin since early 90's). Most importantly he is a responsible hobbyist and will not go nuts over corals he knows will not thrive in his system and are not aquacultured. Goes to show the noob-dead elegance coral equation works as his is happily thriving.

 

Good Post Nalbar!

I had a pair of Bearded Dragons

[gregb]

The problem is probably caused by people pumping to much s... into the water.

[Brumania!]

I disagree with LiQuiD's take as to the experience level of the hobby as a whole from 5 years ago (or more) to now. I am getting into the hobby again after a 10 year hiatus (due to a more permanent home and $$$!), but the livestock at the LFSs isn't a ton different (with the exception of SPS corals). And just following the hobby for the last several years, and then recently doing a ton of research online has led me to believe that the hobby is capable of sustaining many more difficult kinds of coral and other marine life that other before.

 

My 55 gallon of 10 years ago had a trickle filter, 4 48" NO bulbs, a protein skimmer and live rock - pretty advanced for the time! But, I couldn't keep anything more than softies, mushrooms and some easier LPS corals such as bubble corals. My resources were - some books, TFH magazine, and that was about it!

 

Now, aquarists are keeping all sorts of SPS corals, clams, and everything in between. Metal halide lighting, PC lighting, the Jaubert and Berlin systems, etc., while not necessarily new since I started are certainly more accessible and more information on these topics is available. The fact that everyone on this forum knows that you generally can't keep Gonoporia and Moorish Idols (or if they don't, they will soon!), is a testament to the quality of information available on the Internet and the incredible resource a focused, global peer group can be. LiQuiD may be right that there are many more newbies than ever before - I don't doubt that - but I am willing to bet that there is a proportionate increase in the number of experienced hobbyists. And I am also confident that the amount of time from noob - pro has been dramatically reduced due to forums like this and other methods of disseminating information that have come with the information age!

 

My point as it pertains to this thread is that we don't know wy Elegance corals are failing in captivity recently, but in the information age someone like Eric Borneman has the resources to find out. Will it save the reefs? No, but nobody as claimed it will. Will it provide information that will allow any aquarist to keep the animals? No, but any uninformed aquarist can fail with any animal. If the study produces benefits to the aquarist in keeping the Elegance or any other coral, then great. If it helps in some small way conserve our (humanity's) reefs, great. The point is, 0% chance exists to do either if the study isn't conducted.

 

So, let me see if I can find my 10 year old elegance coral skeleton!

[pyrotech]

I have heard some of you talk a bit about how some areas the collection of fish and corals provides a big part of their income which provides for food and they are right. What is not mentioned is that alot of these fish that you are so worried about protecting are actualy considered edible. I live in the middle of the pacific on the island of guam. Here as in almost all the pacific islands they run their gill nets, along the coral reefs to catch fish to eat. They do not have much if any kind of collection here. These fish that you pay such large amounts of money for they eat daily. In alot of the islands they still use cyanide and explosives to catch fish to eat only keeping a small protion of what is killed.

How are you going to be able to stop these practices if you are telling them that they are not allowed to collect these live fish to sell in the aquarium trade. If you think about it these people are the only ones who have the ability to protect their reefs, and they are far more likely to do so if the reef can provide them with the means by which to survive.

I think a big part of the problem now adays is coming from the belief that if you spend all this money on all this equipment you to can have a pretty reef tank. More often then not the more equipment you have in your tank the more you have to go wrong. I think to often people want to blame their equipment or lack of on their in ability to keep something alive. I have kept quite a few fish for more then 8-12 years. The truth is that if you do things as naturaly as you can, you can set a tank up with very little equipment. Unfortunately alot of people in these message groups preach spend the money, buy the expensive things. Why dont you stop spending the money and start reading.

a few messages back someone refered to the collection of rock in australia. Right now Australia is suffering great dangers to their reefs and it has nothing to do with mankind what so ever. The reefs are being eaten by crown of thorns starfish.

Every one is going to have their own beliefs, but they still need to have respect for those around them

[BKtomodachi]

While lots of that is true, and good wisdom, I think there is another thing that is "hurting" (I like to use "changing") our coral reefs, and that is the warming of our oceans.

 

Before anyone misunderstands "global warning" there must first be a definition... just the warming of the earth, especially the seas. Personally what we know of our earth's history is to small a time to contribute global warming to humans. It is just not that easy.

 

Personally I think that humans are to reluctant to notice changes as neither good nor bad, but natural. Sure we should protect species from becoming extinct, etc., but what humans are doing is to me a natural process of the earth... and the earths climate may be doing it on its own.

[DRZL-sauras]

Originally posted by BKtomodachi

but what humans are doing is to me a natural process of the earth... and the earths climate may be doing it on its own.

 

Do you happen to believe global warming is "hot air" (no pun intended) by any chance?

 

I don't see how you can believe what humans have done to this planet a "natural" occurence. Before I dive headfirst into this one I would like you to explain your statement.

 

By they way, we dont just use oral tradition to pass down events in the earth. If you see any discoveries that have been made by (especially swiss) scientists at the ice caps boring down into miles of glacier it lets you know EXACTLY what the conditions were on the planet also the repetitive trends such as ice ages

[bikinibottom]

Divers have a saying: leave only bubbles, take only memories....

 

Meaning: try to have as little impact on an eco-system as possible. It's up to every individual to do this to the best of their ability, in all of their daily endeavours. Just as we choose organic products to eat, or drive hybrid cars, or use green electricity, in our hobby we can choose an alternative also.

 

Supply and demand is what it is. If there is a population that demands a product, and another one can supply and make a lot of money doing so, then it's going to happen. No government regulation in the world is going to stop a broke family in the Phillipines from hacking away at the reef in their backyard if it means it's going to put food on their table.

 

So our reef tanks won't look like a South Pacific wonderland.... we can still build beautiful, natural tanks with farmed animals.

[Spasticat]

"Divers have a saying: leave only bubbles"

 

does that include farts?

[BKtomodachi]

Well listen... I probably am WAaAaAaAy off of others political standpoints here... but as a species we are changing, and the earth just might be "worse" as you would call it. I like "different".

[drg0nzo1]

Originally posted by Arma#####

O RLY  ???  

 

fact of the matter is, if they don't survive, and they have a poor survival rate......

 

HAY MORON ! DON'T FN' BUY IT !

 

If enough people got that through their thick skulls, the transhippers would stop pulling them out of the ocean.

 

This isn't a PHD needed thing people. It is Common sense. Some things are just beyond our understanding at prsenttimes, and asking the Blind to lead the Deaf in a parade of stuptitude is loonacy.

 

I for one deleted his email to me about this exact subject a few months back....

 

And yes, I do know quite a few "upety up's" and many of us are laughing at this " study". Any results while "perhaps" usefull, are trivial and based on circumstance at best.

 

Mother nature is quite complex, and there are some things we will NEVER know ( and really shouldn't mess with at present time).

 

PERIOD

 

Just my RANT..... END.

 

 

 

 

I think he is doing something quite admirable. Not many people are willing to dedicate such time and effort toward something like this. Your post only proves this. Either way...i have a hell of a lot more respect for him than a person who feels the need to berate a person who is only trying to help the ocean and hobbyists alike.