sturuomo Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 You can blame Greed though.... Collectors on the Great Barrier Reef have specific 1 tonne quotas per year to extract Live Rock and Coral. Most are ripping out 24 tonnes... per year. So... Australia only has about 18million inhabitants. How many people live in the US, forget Canada and South America. Compare the demand vus Supply. Thats a #### load of rock being harvested. So now... collectors on the GBR need to checkin before the leave and checkout with Marine and Fisheries. 1 kilo over what they declare...its Hand in your licence and here's a nice fine. As for catalphyllias.. im surprised to here it died pyrrhus. They are generally the most hardiest of LPS. Mine are blooming... getting to damn big. Ever seen little shop of horrors? What i'd like to do is a study on how many anemones get taken from the ocean... because everyone wants a host for Nemo. And how many actually die.... I bet its really high. No need for Anemones in an aquarium. The clowns on the reef need them more for protection. GS Link to comment
Spasticat Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 How many people live in the US, forget Canada and South America. Compare the demand vus Supply. Fine then. Lower the supply to the legal limit and watch prices soar. Link to comment
cronicreef Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 It's not alway what best for the hobby and your wallet! Link to comment
d[J]_a[Q]ua Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 true true its supply vs demand...but i their isnt an equilibrium to that. i say that because how many fish/inverts/corals die at the LFS (not blaming or putting it on them, just the truth) due to carelessness. all they do is order more and another 30% dies or even more. but hey then you gotta look at the hobbyists that dont give a sh!t and just gets w/e do w/e w/o research or care if it lives or not, because they have the power to just replace it if it dies. so the supply i would say is over-supplied just a lot of it is wasted. but hey im no expert or anything...im just using the info i know and giving a "understandable" answer. but if im wrong then i stand corrected and all of this is BS and just ignore it. Link to comment
sturuomo Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 So does everyone agree then that there is a massive quantity of LiveStock being ripped out of our oceans? Frankly,I can't see no difference to this or killing elephants for ivory, Tigers for bones and Seals for fur. We should propagate our own LiveStock which is possible now and have a total ban on collecting from oceans. djAqua is correct ... a #### load of livestock dies in transit. And a heap more at the hands of negligent hobbyists. Does anybody care? Just rip more out the ocean ... theres heaps to go around.... And in 2055 the people will say to the people on Mars... There is none left! Because we managed it so carelessly. I for one am worried. That's why I prefer to buy captive raised Livestock. Spread the word! Link to comment
matt the fiddler Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 thre is an acceptable amount of ocean harvesting.. it is overharvesting that is ther problem.... otherwise we would not have any coral period!!!! i try to buy a good 95% of my stuff tank raised... i am trying to see about getting some breeding going soon to sell em to people who would buy wild otherwise.... wiht the goal of breaking even Link to comment
danieljames Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 may i ask...how to create programs or education that will steer the collection in this direction? Its easy to say...but does anyone have opinions on how it can be done? How to educate the newbie BEFORE he buys that moorish idol? Goniopora? Perhaps some kind of certification. As with diving. You must have some kind of education/certificate before purchasing livestock? Would that not be possible? I hear great opinions...but if its agreed that the buying of livestock that is not suitable is the core cause (agreed?), how can we as hobbyist approach this problem? Link to comment
matt the fiddler Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 How to educate the newbie BEFORE he buys that moorish idol? Coral Clubs my club's [www.indmas.org]main purpose is to save the oceans and protect them- several items- here are a few... 1- frag swaps, less to harvest, and it encourages captive bred... 2- helping newbies out so they don't kill stuff, have a better expirence, and don't deplete the reef Link to comment
brahm Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 harvesting corals is only a small percent if not one of the smallest perecent of damage to the oceans corals and reefs.. I think there are better trees to bark up if you want to make an impact. The fishing (for food) industry does way MORE damage of a catasrophic level compared to all the corals we collectected, die in transit and die in our tanks. Link to comment
danieljames Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 RIGHT ON MATT. thats what i'm talking about. Education...through clubs and the like. But that just doesn't encompass the whole of our hobby. The members of clubs are such a small minority. How to fix that? brahm...i wish i could speak intelligently on that. But i have no idea on how much destruction is caused by what you mentioned. I'm sure its substantial. Our collection practices are very much a big part of destruction. Look at the phillipines. Cyanide collection has destroyed a huge amount of reef. I do believe it is documented as well. Would fishing over our reefs commercially be easily done? I would think that the nets would get caught. I was under the impression that commercial fishing was done in deeper water with schooling fish...such as tuna. There really is not that many edible fish on the reef that would make it profitable i would think. Grouper and the like. But not in a quantity that would make it profitable. I would think a reef has more ornamental fish. Help me out though...again, i really don't know diddly about that. Very interresting. Link to comment
brahm Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Alot of places they eat the fish we hold in our tanks, eric boreman gave a speech at the SCMAS meeting a while back that I was able to attend, in it he talked about the diffrent things impacting the reefs, of which he showed pictures of HUGE areas, where people in the fishing industry literly just blew up the reefs, they were calling it the under water highway or something like that it just miles and miles of leveled reefs. Also other things like the fact that many of the worlds highways use... Calcium based materials to build the actually freeways.. Collecting live rock for aqaurium use is one of the smallest pieces of the pie from everything I've heard and read, Torusism, all the shops selling bleached corals and inverts, at every single beach town around the globe..You think those were collected dead shells. Fishieres that troll as well, Yaht and boats that Ancor in the reefs, chemical run off, global warming.. ect ect the list goes on and on.. Link to comment
danieljames Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 true brahm. So our reefs are doomed? Did Borneman give any suggestion on how to fix this? I really respect that man Link to comment
brahm Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 "Along with increasted human poplulation come the problems inherent to overfishing. Though shallow coral reefs occupy about .2% of the world's oceans, more than 10% of the worldwisde fish harvest from from these areas" "New roads, and building, and airport runways are built using blasted coral limestone. Entire reefs are destroyed to make room for shipping channels and new cruise ship docks and oil rigs" "Net and Drag fishing imporer boat anchoring and increating number of carless diver can all deamge or destory large areas of a reef" -Eric Borneman,Acquarium Corals Link to comment
brahm Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Basically the goverments that are intrusted to protect these reefs need to be pushed into the right direction to crack down on these irresponable acts. I personally, like the idea and prefer AquaCultured items. One of the big reason i'm going to really be pushing aquacultured items once I put out my site. Hopefully one day i'll be able to have enough aquacultured corals available to me that I will only sell such. Link to comment
danieljames Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 i hear ya brahm. I just know there is someone that has proposed some way...any way..to fix this. "tree huggers"..."reef huggers"...someone. I just have never read it. Call me a hippy if you will...i don't care. But it seems things are changing for the worse...and no one seems to have an alternative. That disturbs me. All is well...we go into our lfs and buy what we wish. This feeds the problem. Perhaps someone with a child could better understand. Wanting for your child what you find happiness in. It seems to me that it might not be possible. I think the hobby will progress to a point were we will only have aquacultered life. Period. Our children will explain to theirs that there was once a place were these creatures lived outside of our tanks. Link to comment
brahm Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Yea, I hear that but, I think alot of the way we feel towards these things are based on the this human desire to keep things exactly the way there are. The reality of the world is species live, and species die regadless of what the causes are. We could spend are whole lives trying to preserve the world just as it was on September 15th 2004, only for a volcono to unload and cloud out the sun for a couple weeks and kill of 80% of the worlds corals. What evolves out of the ashes will thrive on this planet till the next change.. But as sad as it may seem, think of it this way for every coral you buy your putting food in somebody mouth in some third world country Link to comment
danieljames Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 yeah. thats true brahm. But the reality is that when natural ocurrences destroy life..they come back. Its a one time event. Man is by no means a natural occurence. We pick at things continually over a period of time that doesn't even compare to a geological event. Its a splash in the bucket. I hope your right.....but my gut says your wrong I can't even comment on putting food in someones mouth at the expense of our reefs. There must be other ways. There just has to be Link to comment
brahm Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Originally posted by danieljames yeah. thats true brahm. But the reality is that when natural ocurrences destroy life..they come back. Its a one time event. Man is by no means a natural occurence. We pick at things continually over a period of time that doesn't even compare to a geological event. Its a splash in the bucket. I hope your right.....but my gut says your wrong I can't even comment on putting food in someones mouth at the expense of our reefs. There must be other ways. There just has to be It really depends at how you look at things. Take a step back and look at the Human Race as just another animal like any other species, we are animals, we are a part of nature, thus what we do is a natual occurnce, and the destruction we create as whole is only an un-natrual destruction in our own analitical minds. To the earth we are just another species trying to stay on top to survive. But, Yes on an individual level we have the ability to attempt to rationize and make idividul choices. But as a whole in a social setting we are all wether we like to admit it or not getting swayed around with the rest of the cattle, regadless of wether we are willing or the one who stands up and says other wise. We all have are rolls in our species. And as far as putting foods, for some countries the reefs are there greatest natrual resource and main means for there survival who are we to tell them not to exploit it. As far as we know the long term of effects of burning the OIL we use on a daily basis in our cars and to fuel the majority of the world will have a MUCH higher impact on the world then a few 100 villages collecting corals and orenimental fish. Link to comment
DRZL-sauras Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 One things human fail to realize, is that life will go on BUT WE will die, (except if we get to interplanetary colonization). Trust me Brahm things are evolving and replacing, especially these cerain organism that are found deep in the earth and slowly coming up and some that already exist in the surface. These new evolutions need a carbon-methane atmosphere to thrive and guess what? We're making it for them, we're slowly building them there paradise and wiping ourselves out. Scientists already know our successors and now its just a waiting game. And please dont say bull#### since i know most people have no clue as to this. It's only found in books that are published and never have notoriety because the govnt, especially this one doesnt want you to know about. There is such perils in this world that we know nothing about. I am not a doomsday fanatic. I love life and all it entitles in the world we are in. Yet, i prefer to know the underlying truth Link to comment
danieljames Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 man bro. I couldn't agree with you more. So the life on our planet is just an ever changing cycle? i couldn't agree more with your thinking. Honestly. Its an ever changing cycle that just goes with the flow of the present "dominant" species? So the present "dominant" species..however you define that..has no moral obligations? Even over its own? I could not agree with you more...believe me. Great discussion. I guess its all about change really. Link to comment
danieljames Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Originally posted by DRZL-sauras Yet, i prefer to know the underlying truth well said man. well said. The "truth" meaning different things to different people. Link to comment
DRZL-sauras Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Being humans in a natural world does not make our destruction of nature "natural" or normal. Thats just an overblown excuse. Have you ever seen a plastic tree? how about the all-too-common halogen dafodils? This was not natural, these are man-made and thus shouldnt equate as nature=human=plexiglass. There is a break in human and nature when human nature drives nature to destruction Link to comment
danieljames Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 yep....this is true. Well said again Link to comment
DRZL-sauras Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Hey danielJames I am glad you feel some comraderie in these topics. I am a young college student, 20yrs old, and I've met some amaziing professors at NYU. Not quacks but true blue intelligent people. I was very naive, when it came to the REAL world. I read and read and looked and analyzed and so much just started to fit. If anyone would like a great read, read a book called "The Spirit in the Gene: Humanity's Proud Illusion and the Laws of Nature" by Reg Morrison It has a great chapter just on reefs and oceans. But there it encompasses everything that affects humans Link to comment
danieljames Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 perfect drzl. read and read again. These posts and others. get all the info you can. Do you have an idea how things could be improved for our hobby? thanks for the book link. I will look for it. is there a link online? Link to comment
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