#### you Reef Keeper Temp Probe

[StevieT]

They offered me an RMA. I can either purchase a new one then they will refund when I send the ####ty one back. Or I can send it back and wait for a new one.

 

I am going to purchase one and wait to be refunded, this way I have one sooner than later, even though the tank is back to the way it was before the fancy technology was installed.

 

Here is the link on their warranty information

 

http://www.forum.digitalaquatics.com/viewt...&t=45#p1209

[timdanger]

They offered me an RMA. I can either purchase a new one then they will refund when I send the ####ty one back. Or I can send it back and wait for a new one.

 

I am going to purchase one and wait to be refunded, this way I have one sooner than later, even though the tank is back to the way it was before the fancy technology was installed.

 

Here is the link on their warranty information

 

http://www.forum.digitalaquatics.com/viewt...&t=45#p1209

 

How "generous" of them. Good to know that they care so much about their customer and stand behind the quality of their product so much that they are willing to... follow their standard warranty replacement policy. Hope the losses that you suffer as a direct result of their defective product aren't too expensive.

[StevieT]

I can see both sides and I am sure they can always point to the fact I did not have my RK set to have the heater on when their is a temp error. Cept I don't see that in the direction sheets. When a tank cracks they only replace the tank, same thing here. Sucks but we all assume the risk when starting this hobby.

[TJ_Burton]

How "generous" of them. Good to know that they care so much about their customer and stand behind the quality of their product so much that they are willing to... follow their standard warranty replacement policy. Hope the losses that you suffer as a direct result of their defective product aren't too expensive.

 

I am going to assume I am reading into your sarcasm correctly.

 

Lets try and remember these companies aren't in business to do us favors. They came up with a product designed to aid us in the reef aquarium hobby. For the most part their products do what they are supposed to and work as said. There are always going to be cases where a defect or problem arises with a product you have purchased, and as long as they follow their own warranty procedures than they are doing their part.

 

These companies don't stay in business by doing us favors. We assume some risk when relying are tanks on a single device (which actually had a fail safe that Stevie failed to use). DA can not be held responsible for the fact that the temp probe failing led to complications and possible deaths in Stevies tank. There product is just as likely to fail as a light, or heater, or ATO etc. The difference is there product is designed to be able to ALERT you if such a problem occurs, or better yet has a built in fail safe to either turn on/off the piece of equipment if a problem is recognized.

 

In this case, Stevie could have avoided the problem had he known about the option to have the outlet stay on if the temp probe fails. (DA should really have a write up on this in their manual if they don't already)

 

 

 

I honestly feel DA is doing all they need to by replacing the defective part.

 

That is just me though (being a realistic person).

 

***EDIT***

Stevie sort of beat me to it lol...

[Needreefunds]

I can see both sides and I am sure they can always point to the fact I did not have my RK set to have the heater on when their is a temp error. Cept I don't see that in the direction sheets. When a tank cracks they only replace the tank, same thing here. Sucks but we all assume the risk when starting this hobby.

Directions are severely lacking for the layperson IMO.

 

I have been fighting an inaccurate iTemp reading from the jump myself. Sux that the very reason I purchased this ( stability ) is being compromised by this.

 

Very sorry to read this Steve. Once again we all learn from you. I was also unaware of the alarms- at least how they can be utilized.

 

Best of luck for full recovery of this legendary Max. Hang in there buddy.

 

--Richie

[StevieT]

***EDIT***

Stevie sort of beat me to it lol...

 

I am glad someone else sees it this way too. I don't mean any offense to anyone that thinks they owe me the world but even before I started inTank I saw this. It is a risk and I took it. The tank was living before RK and after it is barely holding on. Sometimes emotion gets in the way because we invest so much into the hobby yet I can't expect their business to replace anything but what failed. I will sure set up the other "alarm" feature that turns the heater on besides the pointless noise.

 

Best of luck for full recovery of this legendary Max. Hang in there buddy.

 

--Richie

 

Thanks bud.

 

Temp is back and has been up for a few hours. Some corals are coming out most others are closed. Going to try a water change tonight if it heats up before I leave for work. Fish look OK, clown is fine, bangaii is pissed off hiding but alive. Mandarin is moving around but clearly mad at the world right now.

 

Will report on corals by the end of the week when they tell me. One SPS colony is looking white but polyps are still green.

 

Today was feeding day, sorry little guys.

 

NET module purchased and we'll see if it works with our network. If not up for sale. Something fails and I end up spending money...... grr. Will be cool to finally track the tank at home, I could never get the webcam to broadcast with our network.

[DoubleD]

Which would be nice and I do have access to the building. My only concern is will it work with our server/security as far as outgoing over the network. I do not know what ports this has to run on and if our network will let it.

 

Sounds like your company needs to hire a "reef sensitive" IT Director.

 

I mean, I've put up datacenter security systems wired for humidity, temperature, video and infrared...how freakin' hard is it to add an IP for the "reef" system to the network and open some firewall ports. Management should be all over that tax write-off.

 

Hell, if it was me, I'd give it it's own intranet page and make a companywide video screen saver for "employee" stress management.

 

Where should I send my resume?

[Jacobnano]

That sucks Stevie, I remember I was talking to you about how it is tough for you to leave your tank over the weekend. Hopefully everything recovers, good luck man!

[TJ_Burton]

Stevie, if the NET module doesn't work out for you (which I am sure it will) send me a PM and I can purchase it from you.

[StevieT]

will do.

[timdanger]

I am going to assume I am reading into your sarcasm correctly.

 

Lets try and remember these companies aren't in business to do us favors. They came up with a product designed to aid us in the reef aquarium hobby. For the most part their products do what they are supposed to and work as said. There are always going to be cases where a defect or problem arises with a product you have purchased, and as long as they follow their own warranty procedures than they are doing their part.

 

These companies don't stay in business by doing us favors. We assume some risk when relying are tanks on a single device (which actually had a fail safe that Stevie failed to use). DA can not be held responsible for the fact that the temp probe failing led to complications and possible deaths in Stevies tank. There product is just as likely to fail as a light, or heater, or ATO etc. The difference is there product is designed to be able to ALERT you if such a problem occurs, or better yet has a built in fail safe to either turn on/off the piece of equipment if a problem is recognized.

 

lot of issues with these statements, but I specifically wanted to comment on the assertions about "assuming the risk" -- if you're just stating your personal opinion on the matter, fine -- but just understand that it is legally inaccurate to say that consumers "assume the risk" when they purchase a product (with a few exceptions). This is not how the products liability law works. There are a million examples of these products liability cases out there (ask any car company, cigarette company, food company, etc. whether they've managed to figure out how to successfully argue that a consumer has assumed the risk for product defects).

 

i'm not suggesting this is an obvious products liability case (don't know enough facts), but the fact is that the product was designed for a specific purpose, and due to an apparent design or manufacturing defect, it failed in that purpose, resulting in damages.

 

In this case, Stevie could have avoided the problem had he known about the option to have the outlet stay on if the temp probe fails. (DA should really have a write up on this in their manual if they don't already)

 

Agreed, he probably could have. Would've been good for DA's position if they would've notified the consumer that this kind of thing was available. However, the fact that such an easy alternative exists but is not only not the default, but isn't even mentioned as an option in the instruction manual, signals "design defect" to me. Again, this is without knowing much about it, but that's my initial reaction.

 

I honestly feel DA is doing all they need to by replacing the defective part.

 

That is just me though (being a realistic person).

 

are you implying that it is not realistic for a company to stand behind the products it manufactures, or to be responsible when a manufacturing or design defect of those products causes injury or other damages? there is a rather substantial body of products liability law that will disagree with you here.

 

this failure only winds up killing livestock, damage is probably minimal (or at least not worth worrying about). so, whatever, it gets ignored. what if the failure resulted in electrocution, or a fire, or some other substantial damage?

 

We don't determine liability based on scale of the damage for the same reason we charge attempted murder the same as completed murder - you don't want to reward the negligent or criminal act for having a smaller effect than it could have.

 

My experience is that you don't hear a lot about these kinds of cases because they don't get litigated unless the company has deep pockets (know any aquarium companies with deep pockets?) or the damage is more significant (fire, electrocution, maybe flood).

 

I am glad someone else sees it this way too. I don't mean any offense to anyone that thinks they owe me the world but even before I started inTank I saw this. It is a risk and I took it. The tank was living before RK and after it is barely holding on. Sometimes emotion gets in the way because we invest so much into the hobby yet I can't expect their business to replace anything but what failed. I will sure set up the other "alarm" feature that turns the heater on besides the pointless noise.

 

This is definitely a fair/practical way of looking at it. I wouldn't expect them to replace livestock, certainly. If it were me, I would probably approach it from the standpoint that "it's asking less to send me a product that costs you $10 to manufacture than to replace expensive livestock, but it would go a long way toward compensating me."

[Bio_Borg]

NET module purchased and we'll see if it works with our network. If not up for sale. Something fails and I end up spending money...... grr. Will be cool to finally track the tank at home, I could never get the webcam to broadcast with our network.

 

IT Guy here. Setting up the NET module to email/alert you will most likely take no intervention on behalf of your IT staff. Just point it at your internal email server or mail gateway, and put your from: address to be your work email address. Now, if the destination email you put is non-work, the IT guy will have to allow relay, but you could get around this by making a forwarding rule in your Outlook. There are no firewall changes necessary to allow it to email, unless the network jack you plug it into isn't wired for workstation usage.

[TJ_Burton]

timdanger,

 

I think you are taking it a little out of context. I would have a completely different standpoint if the unit malfunctioned without warning causing injury to a person, or damages to home/property.

 

No probe is going to last forever. The probe failed early, and the unit recognized that the probe failed and shut off the outlet as it was designed to do unless set otherwise.

 

The device functioned as it was supposed to given the fact that the temp probe failed. Stevie did not have the NET module to send him notification, and was not near the aquarium to hear any sort of audible alert if one was made.

 

At that point, I would have to say the manufacturer is doing their part by replacing the failed probe and the user assumed the risks of depending on the unit to regulate the aquarium without fail, and without a device to notify the user of problems long distance.

 

I have fought with my fair share of manufacturers or retailers over failed equipment that caused more damages resulting in a substancial financial loss. Most often I come out with some form of compensation beyond just warranty replacement. In this instance however, I really don't feel that DA is responsible for what happened. Had there been no way to prevent the heater from turning off I would say DA should reconsider how their unit functions (but there is a way to prevent it - stupidly DA has neglected to mention it in the manual). Also, the fact that they now have a NET module to send alerts via email or to your phone etc. to help prevent losses due to failed components tells me that it could have been avoided if the extra components were purchased.

 

Believe me, when I get my RKL or RKE I will go to the fullest extent to make sure I will know that if something fails that I will be covered. That includes the NET module.

 

 

 

I am not at all saying that if a manufacturer sells you a box of blanks and you use them in a pretend gunfight, and then you shoot your friend to death because the box was mislabeled, that it is your fault for assuming that the shells were actually blanks.

 

I think this is more like blaming a watch company for using a crappy battery in your watch that pooped out after a week instead of after a year which caused you to be late for a meeting resulting in you losing a client, then expecting the watch company to compensate you for a multi-million dollar contract.

[timdanger]

timdanger,

 

I think you are taking it a little out of context. I would have a completely different standpoint if the unit malfunctioned without warning causing injury to a person, or damages to home/property.

 

No probe is going to last forever. The probe failed early, and the unit recognized that the probe failed and shut off the outlet as it was designed to do unless set otherwise.

 

The device functioned as it was supposed to given the fact that the temp probe failed. Stevie did not have the NET module to send him notification, and was not near the aquarium to hear any sort of audible alert if one was made.

 

the unit did malfunction, without warning, and (despite the controller responding as it was designed to as a result of the failure) caused damage to property.

 

the probe doesn't have to last forever. but, the failure shouldn't result in a tank crash if it doesn't have to. sounds like bad design to me. most heaters i've ever come across have a thermostat built into it, making the obvious default to leave the outlet on if the temp probe fails. just my opinion.

 

I think this is more like blaming a watch company for using a crappy battery in your watch that pooped out after a week instead of after a year which caused you to be late for a meeting resulting in you losing a client, then expecting the watch company to compensate you for a multi-million dollar contract.

 

in our DA example, there is a direct causal link between the failure of the product and the resulting damage. in your watch battery example, the lost battery is way too indirectly related to the lost million dollar contract to be the proximate cause.

[TJ_Burton]

the unit did malfunction, without warning, and (despite the controller responding as it was designed to as a result of the failure) caused damage to property.

 

The controller identified the failed component, had an alert (iTemp error) and acted as it is programmed to do. It did not have a malfunction in the programming that caused it to go haywire and skip all alerts etc.

How is this for a better analogy: It's like your oil pressure guage failing, and then you run your car dry on oil, seize the engine, and try to blame the car manufacturer for the engine seizing. Does that one work better? lol

 

the probe doesn't have to last forever. but, the failure shouldn't result in a tank crash if it doesn't have to. sounds like bad design to me. most heaters i've ever come across have a thermostat built into it, making the obvious default to leave the outlet on if the temp probe fails. just my opinion.

 

It didn't have to. It resulted in a tank crash because the owner didn't have the necessary upgrades to have the aquarium running off site (not at home), or have the unit programmed correctly to suit his needs.

 

in our DA example, there is a direct causal link between the failure of the product and the resulting damage. in your watch battery example, the lost battery is way too indirectly related to the lost million dollar contract to be the proximate cause.

 

Alright - we could do this all night so rather than continuing this pretty much pointless debate I am going to just tell you that if you feel that strongly about it you should contact DA and tell them all of what you are telling me. Go find out what their answer is since I am not DA and really don't feel like fighting this battle for them.

 

My loose analogies were not designed to hold up in court for the record

[sadielynn]

I see both sides on this but at the time mine was the technology for my time and quite frankly the RK2 has no alerts for failure or such so it is outdated that way .... yet to replace something that costs them just a few cents or dollars to make to keep the customer happy upon return (which they did not offer me atleast) only makes sense in my opnion ...considering that we payed at that time was I believe 175 or so ... either way is sucks

[TJ_Burton]

I see both sides on this but at the time mine was the technology for my time and quite frankly the RK2 has no alerts for failure or such so it is outdated that way .... yet to replace something that costs them just a few cents or dollars to make to keep the customer happy upon return (which they did not offer me atleast) only makes sense in my opnion ...considering that we payed at that time was I believe 175 or so ... either way is sucks

 

I completely agree with you there.

[timdanger]

Alright - we could do this all night so rather than continuing this pretty much pointless debate I am going to just tell you that if you feel that strongly about it you should contact DA and tell them all of what you are telling me. Go find out what their answer is since I am not DA and really don't feel like fighting this battle for them.

 

My loose analogies were not designed to hold up in court for the record

 

agreed, though i'm obviously not going to be contacting DA. all i'm doing is pointing out the issue. most people aren't interested anyway.

[TJ_Burton]

agreed, though i'm obviously not going to be contacting DA. all i'm doing is pointing out the issue. most people aren't interested anyway.

 

I am interested

 

I just don't agree with you and wouldn't know how to explain your angle to DA lol...

If you were to raise your concerns with them and post it I would be very interested in what DA has to say for themselves.

 

I wouldn't expect you to go through all that trouble though.

[StevieT]

If you water pump in your car fails they will replace teh water pump, not pay for the labor

If the paint on your house starts to chip after only a year, you get new paint, not labor.

 

I see the same here and really am not putting up the fight with them that maybe I should, or shouldn't. It is too early to do so anyway, not calculation of loss yet.

 

4 gallon water change completed this afternoon planning another one tomorrow depending on look of water clarity.

 

I have lots of CP elite in-stock so a new bag couldn't hurt either.

 

#### YOU DA

 

 

So whats up with the alarms? I haven't played with the menu yet but never though that it could turn on a device if there was a failure. "Maybe after reading these I though, humm yeah I don't need a beep to come on."

 

[Needreefunds]

So whats up with the alarms? I haven't played with the menu yet but never though that it could turn on a device if there was a failure. "Maybe after reading these I though, humm yeah I don't need a beep to come on."

 

Still following as I too read it the same way and had similar thoughts.

[StevieT]

Will play with it when the new temp probe comes in and report if any of that makes sense

[timdanger]

Steve and TJ,

 

Look, there is a difference between a maintenance issue that causes no damage outside of itself (e.g. house paint chipping) and a design defect that directly causes your tank to crash.

 

products liability is contingent on that design defect. i don't know what the problem with the paint is, but if it's chipping because of either a manufacturing or design defect, it's their responsibility to compensate you for the damages. now, sure, in that case, maybe a paint company is only going to offer to give you new paint, but that doesn't mean they don't also owe you the cost to repair the paint. what customer service is willing to offer and what you have a legal right to may be different, i guess. might make business sense to wait until you get sued to worry about settling that kind of claim.

 

Keep in mind that "defect" doesn't necessarily mean "malfunction." A product can act just the way it's designed to act and still have a design defect from the perspective of products liability. In this case, the design defect seems fairly obvious to me. No reason it should cut off the heater just because the temp probe failed. This is certainly a debatable point, but again, most heaters i've ever seen have a thermostat built in that would act as a "backup," so it wouldn't make any sense to just turn the heater outlet off in case of a failure.

[TJ_Burton]

Steve and TJ,

Keep in mind that "defect" doesn't necessarily mean "malfunction." A product can act just the way it's designed to act and still have a design defect from the perspective of products liability. In this case, the design defect seems fairly obvious to me. No reason it should cut off the heater just because the temp probe failed. This is certainly a debatable point, but again, most heaters i've ever seen have a thermostat built in that would act as a "backup," so it wouldn't make any sense to just turn the heater outlet off in case of a failure.

 

At the end of the day, that is exactly what we are debating.

 

I say that because you have the option to set it to what YOU would prefer it to do, that it is not a defect. You are saying because it is not the DEFAULT setting, that it is a product defect and DA should be held liable.

[spacey]

Directions are severely lacking for the layperson IMO.

--Richie

Yes... to say that the manual is lacking is a huge understatement. It barely says what it is about and what the thing does. Then it sort of says what to do to set few options and thats it. I was in disbelief how short and limited in scope the little booklet is. It is hard to believe that it's not just a short printed summary/sample version shipped w/the product to save paper while the real thing is available for download on-line. W/product like that its almost asking for trouble by not providing copious amounts of samples and going overboard w/explanations and how to do everything there is to do. Especially that RKL in particular does not have all THAT much to document. Just being complete and thorough would go a long way to help alleviate screwups borne out of ignorance due to lack of documentation. I do not understand this behavior... unless of course they are like 4 person operation and are in constant scramble to deal w/fires due to customer frustration and really can't catch up enough to spend what would be maybe a week of work for one person, if even, to write a decent and complete user manual.

 

spacey