Mandarin Dragonet

[Seiryoku]

MYTH BUSTED!!!

 

errrr....yeah....

 

Mythbusters ftw ^^

[glennr1978]

I just bought a 3"+ fat arse mandarin today. I figured since I already broke the tang in a 40g law, why not go one futher and get the mandarin. I hope I can get it to eat. I'm pretty much obsessed with this stuff so I'm sure I'll figure something out.

[GoingPostal]

Ignoring the feeding, these fish can get to 4 inches and are pretty active IME, why would you shove it into a 10 gallon? I had one for a couple days in a 12 gallon and he devoured the huge pod and flatworm population in that time, plus me feeding mysis. I felt bad with him all cramped in there.

[ubigbobby]

Ignoring the feeding, these fish can get to 4 inches and are pretty active IME, why would you shove it into a 10 gallon? I had one for a couple days in a 12 gallon and he devoured the huge pod and flatworm population in that time, plus me feeding mysis. I felt bad with him all cramped in there.

 

 

This all comes back to a conversation had in a Tang thread a month or so back about personal philisophy on the mental capacity of fish.

 

If you're the type of person who anthropomorphizes and gives fish human traits, emotions and thoughts, then you MAY feel "bad" about things like that and worry about the "happiness" of the fish, if there is such a thing.

 

However if you see fish in a purely scientific sense where are are only partially conscious beings at most that do not experience "emotion" as we define it as humans, and are incapable of introspection and reasoning, then you are only concerned with the health of the fish. If the fish is healthy, then all is well.

 

I'm of the 2nd school of thought. Thus if the fish does not experiences humanlike emotions of regret, angst, happiness, etc. then what's the point in trying the make the fish "happy". Their "happiness" would be measured in their health and stress levels. If they are healthy and do not display physical signs of stress, then all is well.

[BKtomodachi]

This all comes back to a conversation had in a Tang thread a month or so back about personal philisophy on the mental capacity of fish.

 

If you're the type of person who anthropomorphizes and gives fish human traits, emotions and thoughts, then you MAY feel "bad" about things like that and worry about the "happiness" of the fish, if there is such a thing.

 

However if you see fish in a purely scientific sense where are are only partially conscious beings at most that do not experience "emotion" as we define it as humans, and are incapable of introspection and reasoning, then you are only concerned with the health of the fish. If the fish is healthy, then all is well.

 

I'm of the 2nd school of thought. Thus if the fish does not experiences humanlike emotions of regret, angst, happiness, etc. then what's the point in trying the make the fish "happy". Their "happiness" would be measured in their health and stress levels. If they are healthy and do not display physical signs of stress, then all is well.

 

 

I must agree with you entirely on the point of anthropomorphizing our animals, and how this leads to a false sense of accomplishment, etc.

 

But with things such as tangs, there are additional factors to keep in mind. With my upcoming 15 gal w/sump, I am planning one sunburst anthias (cave dwelling, often single in nature, small range) and now perhaps one dragonet. This is another creature that does not require long or wide swaths of motion to encourage natural behavior. Tangs, however, do. It is probably overblown, though. For yellow tangs, especially.

[quixand]

While I understand what you both are saying, I have to respectfully disagree.

 

If fish are intelligent enough to know when it is feeding time, learn to enjoy human interaction, I believe you may be short changing their mental faculties. Now, I wouldn't say keeping a Dragonet in a 15g tank is mean, especially if your purpose is to treat them wonderfully by keeping a perfectly balanced ecosystem for them to live in. =) Dragonets are small, and have plenty of room to play in a tank that size.

 

However as BKtomodachi stated, some fish need space to "spread their wings"...and putting a yellow tang in 15g tank is sheer agony.

[BKtomodachi]

While I understand what you both are saying, I have to respectfully disagree.

 

learn to enjoy human interaction

This part I don't understand. How in the world would you ever know if a fish was enjoying you?

[ubigbobby]

While I understand what you both are saying, I have to respectfully disagree.

 

If fish are intelligent enough to know when it is feeding time, learn to enjoy human interaction, I believe you may be short changing their mental faculties. Now, I wouldn't say keeping a Dragonet in a 15g tank is mean, especially if your purpose is to treat them wonderfully by keeping a perfectly balanced ecosystem for them to live in. =) Dragonets are small, and have plenty of room to play in a tank that size.

 

However as BKtomodachi stated, some fish need space to "spread their wings"...and putting a yellow tang in 15g tank is sheer agony.

 

 

Yu are of course free to disagree. Though I seriously question whether or not it is "intelligence" that allows them to recognize you. They're likely not recognizing you as some great caregive rbut rather you have become associated with food. Most animals are capable of this. It's a simple form of conditioning.

 

As for your point about "enjoying" human interaction. Right there you are anthropomorizing. You're placing human trait (the ability to enjoy) on an animal. What's more likely is that the fish accosiates you with food and displays behavior which you have called "enjoyment" or "excitement" becuase it makes the entire experience rewarding for you. We do this to all our pets, and even non pets at the zoo. "Oh look, that animal is laughing/smiling/frowning, etc. If we look at what they are REALLY doing, it turns our 9 times out of 10, they're not lauging, smiling, or frowning, but rather performing a completely unrelated behavior.

 

It is my opinion, and you're free to disagree, that we need to avoid anthropomorphizing. If we want to keep these animal and really learn from them and about them, then we need to stop thinking of them as little humans in a tank. They're not.

 

I often hear the argument. "How would you like to be confimed to one little room your whole life?". Ha, I'd hate it. But that's becuase I have the capacity for complex emotion, introspection, reasoning, rational conscious thought. A fish can't think about "oh ###### I'm stuck in a box". It can't sit there and forumulate a plan to escape, or feel sorry for itself.

 

We love to use emotion words like "feel" and "think" etc. when talking about our fish. The problem is these words carry with them connotations about HUMAN emotions and thought. While fish are certainly capable of some "moods" by all accounts they do not experience human emotion as we do. This is likely becuase they don't have the ability of self awareness, or introspection.

 

Fish are more intelligent then many people give them credit for. I agree with you. They have been shown recently to have very good memories and are quick "learners" when it comes to conditioning behavior. However ffor me the determing factor is introspection, human emotion, and self awareness. Fish simply do not have these mental abilities from what we can tell. And as such do not experience the world as we do. Thus they can't get upset and pout becuase you fed them mysis instead of Brine, or get their panties in a bunch becuase they really would has prefered a 20 over a 10.

 

You may respond with, "well if conditions are poor the fish will get stressed." Right you are. However let's look at what we're calling "stress". Again this isn't like human stress where we experience angst, or remorse, etc. The ability for humans and likely other higher primates to have this true "stress" is the ability of introspection. The ability to think about something that isn't concrete. To review something in your mind, replay it, discect it, analyze it, and have an emotional response to it. In the fish world "stress" is simply an outside factor that negatively impacts a fish physically. As a response we get the coloration changes, or behavior swings we call "stress" in a fish. This is the main difference. Fish only display this "stress" due to outside factors. Poor water quality, a bully fish attacking them, lack of defined territoty, etc. They don't get stressed becuase they had a bad day and broke up with their girlfriend fish and are dwelling on it. They aren't capable of recalling a past event and having a new emotional reaction to it. I can't be "stressed" due to an internal factor.

 

For example. If I'm placed in a relaively small room my whole life, I will be greatly stressed. Why? Not becuase of the room itself. There is nothing inherently stressful about a room (unless I'm claustrophobic, but that's another story). The stress comes from my ability to think an analyze the situation. I sit and think...Ok I'm in the small room, stuck here. Then doubt rolls in, and questions about the future etc. THAT is the stressful part of being stuck in a room forever. Fish can't do that. They can't say, "oh ####, I'm stuck in this room, I'm never going to get out", and then dwell on it and get stressed. They get stressed from external factors, not internal ones, becuase they don't have the mental capacity to dwell on something and have complex emotions from these internal "thoughts".

[glennr1978]

Yu are of course free to disagree. Though I seriously question whether or not it is "intelligence" that allows them to recognize you. They're likely not recognizing you as some great caregive rbut rather you have become associated with food. Most animals are capable of this. It's a simple form of conditioning.

 

As for your point about "enjoying" human interaction. Right there you are anthropomorizing. You're placing human trait (the ability to enjoy) on an animal. What's more likely is that the fish accosiates you with food and displays behavior which you have called "enjoyment" or "excitement" becuase it makes the entire experience rewarding for you. We do this to all our pets, and even non pets at the zoo. "Oh look, that animal is laughing/smiling/frowning, etc. If we look at what they are REALLY doing, it turns our 9 times out of 10, they're not lauging, smiling, or frowning, but rather performing a completely unrelated behavior.

 

It is my opinion, and you're free to disagree, that we need to avoid anthropomorphizing. If we want to keep these animal and really learn from them and about them, then we need to stop thinking of them as little humans in a tank. They're not.

 

I often hear the argument. "How would you like to be confimed to one little room your whole life?". Ha, I'd hate it. But that's becuase I have the capacity for complex emotion, introspection, reasoning, rational conscious thought. A fish can't think about "oh ###### I'm stuck in a box". It can't sit there and forumulate a plan to escape, or feel sorry for itself.

 

We love to use emotion words like "feel" and "think" etc. when talking about our fish. The problem is these words carry with them connotations about HUMAN emotions and thought. While fish are certainly capable of some "moods" by all accounts they do not experience human emotion as we do. This is likely becuase they don't have the ability of self awareness, or introspection.

 

Fish are more intelligent then many people give them credit for. I agree with you. They have been shown recently to have very good memories and are quick "learners" when it comes to conditioning behavior. However ffor me the determing factor is introspection, human emotion, and self awareness. Fish simply do not have these mental abilities from what we can tell. And as such do not experience the world as we do. Thus they can't get upset and pout becuase you fed them mysis instead of Brine, or get their panties in a bunch becuase they really would has prefered a 20 over a 10.

 

You may respond with, "well if conditions are poor the fish will get stressed." Right you are. However let's look at what we're calling "stress". Again this isn't like human stress where we experience angst, or remorse, etc. The ability for humans and likely other higher primates to have this true "stress" is the ability of introspection. The ability to think about something that isn't concrete. To review something in your mind, replay it, discect it, analyze it, and have an emotional response to it. In the fish world "stress" is simply an outside factor that negatively impacts a fish physically. As a response we get the coloration changes, or behavior swings we call "stress" in a fish. This is the main difference. Fish only display this "stress" due to outside factors. Poor water quality, a bully fish attacking them, lack of defined territoty, etc. They don't get stressed becuase they had a bad day and broke up with their girlfriend fish and are dwelling on it. They aren't capable of recalling a past event and having a new emotional reaction to it. I can't be "stressed" due to an internal factor.

 

For example. If I'm placed in a relaively small room my whole life, I will be greatly stressed. Why? Not becuase of the room itself. There is nothing inherently stressful about a room (unless I'm claustrophobic, but that's another story). The stress comes from my ability to think an analyze the situation. I sit and think...Ok I'm in the small room, stuck here. Then doubt rolls in, and questions about the future etc. THAT is the stressful part of being stuck in a room forever. Fish can't do that. They can't say, "oh ####, I'm stuck in this room, I'm never going to get out", and then dwell on it and get stressed. They get stressed from external factors, not internal ones, becuase they don't have the mental capacity to dwell on something and have complex emotions from these internal "thoughts".

 

 

+1.

 

 

btw, that is the longest post that i've actually read through entirely in a long time.

[quixand]

I can agree with pretty much everything you said there ubigbobby.

Very well put.

[JustReef]

Back on topic a bit...

 

Once you get a mandarin on frozen mysis, how often do you have to feed it? Once a day, twice a day? In the wild they are constant grazers, so it seems they would need fed quite often.

[SeeDemTails]

They graze on pods all day, I think most of the time they strike they are just inspecting, not getting something every time.

 

I feed mine every other day and have had awesome results. I am getting ready to pair him with a smaller female.

[JustReef]

They graze on pods all day, I think most of the time they strike they are just inspecting, not getting something every time.

 

I feed mine every other day and have had awesome results. I am getting ready to pair him with a smaller female.

 

That would be awesome if you could get a pair to spawn in a 37 gallon tank!

[13angels]

i just lost my Mandarin, I found it stuck under a rock... it was eating frozen brine t'was trained and all... served as a lesson that sh*t still happens.

[spazizz]

I just got a green spotted mandarin yesterday. I bought a breeder container that goes on the inside of your tank and I plan on putting him in there. The training commenses today to get him onto frozen then possibly pellets. Im glad to see that people have successfully trained theirs but i wonder how many fail at it? If any one has any advice PM me sinceIm not gonna make a thread for my tank for another month since I just upgraded. Its pretty kick a$$ though.

[Brian Crook]

Hey guys. I've recently purchased a Mandarin after much deliberation for my 29g BioCube so I'm going to give it a shot. My tank has been running well since January 2007 and I've had a successful refugium running for almost that entire length. I have also ordered two bottles of live copepods from a Canadian vendor which (according to UPS) were just delivered to my house about 10 minutes ago (I'm in class). I intend to put one of the bottles of copepods directly into my tank and use the other one to attempt to setup a copepod sex farm and have them reproduce outside the tank in seperate containers.

 

Just like SeeDem said, I will also attempt to train and feed the mandarin other foods as well. My question is, where can I obtain LIVE brine shrimp from? My local fish stores only seem to carry the frozen brine or mysis. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks guys (and girls).

[Brian Crook]

So my copepods arrived and look really healthy. I'm going to pick up a tiny 5 gallon or something so I can start culturing them.

 

HOWEVER, my serpent starfish ATE my mandarin dragonet!!! I now need to rid myself of the evil fish-eating serpent once and for all and purchase another dragonet (*sigh*). I hope he enjoyed his premium 35 dollar meal.

[onefish2fish]

^^ if its a green serp flush that sh!t down the toilet.

 

 

 

 

or sell it to a LFS for credit.

[Seiryoku]

That is some bad luck right there o_o How big is the starfish?

 

Mandarins seem to sell for $15-$20 in my area, $35 sounds high

[onefish2fish]

man, there prob. about 30-40 in jersey.. everythings expensive.. even sexy shrimp are like 10-16 a pop..

[davidncbrown]

My emerald crab got mine a month or so after I put him in. I thought I could grow pods for him to eat in a separate tank... Didn't work so well, it was a lot harder than I thought it would be. He was malnourished and crabs are opportunistic feeders... I'm currently in the process of building a 9 gallon sump for my nano so maybe I'll have a good enough pod population in my fuge to get the red scooter blenny my girlfriend wants haha.

[Brian Crook]

My serpent starfish is enormous. He's just a regular brown one with black stripes. Very creepy looking. I had suspected that he ate another of my fish a long, long time ago but I could never prove it. This time I managed to catch him red-tentacled, sucking the flesh right off of the face of the Mandarin's murdered corpse.

 

He grew to be quite large in my tank, but always just did his own thing and remained under the rocks just searching for pellet food and other waste material to eat, so his size was never much a concern to me... He's going to have to go now though, especially since I went through the trouble of over-night shipping those copepods to my house so I could try to culture them. The problem is, I don't know how I'll be able to lure him out from under the rocks now. I can normally do it by shutting the lights off and luring him out with food, but now he's probably so full from the "10 oz steak" he just ate that he probably won't come out.

 

I'll have to try tonight...

 

 

Oh, and by the way. Most livestock is overpriced up here in Canada to begin with, let alone the exchange rate difference.

[SeeDemTails]

My emerald crab got mine a month or so after I put him in. I thought I could grow pods for him to eat in a separate tank... Didn't work so well, it was a lot harder than I thought it would be.

 

Its not hard you were just doing it wrong.....You have to feed them. Unless you were catching those pods on by one and feeding them to the fish, you were wasting your time. You have to FEED the fish.

 

I wish I could punch the person in the face who started the "all you need is a fuge and pods" myth. Feed it if you ever want to be successful with them.

[Brian Crook]

I've been reading a lot about culturing copepods and it really doesn't sound difficult at all. I will need to figure out what the best way is to remove the copepods from the culture when I want to feed the main tank. I don't want to disturb the culture too much, and also don't want to cross-contaminate any water back and forth.

 

Some articles say to use a sponge, others say to use a coffee filter or fine strainer. Any suggestions?

[SeeDemTails]

Dont waste your time, just focus on getting the fish on mysis.....It will have plenty of pods to graze on in the tank.