Mr. Fosi's drilled 20H

[Mr. Fosi]

And how spread out are these locations? I assume they aren't all in the same borough, let alone reasonable walkable distances from one another.

[Deleted User 6]

let alone reasonable walkable distances from one another.

 

I could walk to them all in a day.

 

Anne, Makoy, and NYAS (new york aquarium service) are in Manhattan, I'm in Brooklyn (not deep in Brooklyn - easily accessible), and David's in Queens. The subway makes quick work of getting around.

 

But seriously, I'll think of some things you shouldn't miss. What kind of trip would you be planning? 1 day? More? When?

[Mr. Fosi]

No clue, this is all academic at this point. What I'm interested in are reasons to visit because I've plenty reasons not to. It's not like I'm a million miles away, but it is easier to justify visiting a place like DC, know what I mean?

 

The wife and I are talking about setting some $$ aside from our income tax refund next year for one or more trips to some places. Charleston, the Georgia Aquarium, etc, but these are all regional.

 

Personally, I would like to visit DC for several days so I can work through the public museums and whatnot. I've been to plenty of other places/states in the US but NY has always been down on the list because of the perceived cost. Not just the travel to NY, but the lodging, food, admissions, travel around the city, etc.

 

So what makes the trip worthwhile and how do you limit costs without staying in some rathole in Queens?

[Deleted User 6]

So what makes the trip worthwhile and how do you limit costs without staying with David?

 

ftfy

[Deleted User 6]

Ok, lets see here.

 

1. Check www.vrbo.com for places in the city (there are other websites of this type, but this is the only one I've used). Obviously the most accessible place to stay is Manhattan, but you'll find better deals in Brooklyn/Queens. Feel free to PM me any place you find and I'll let you know if it's a good deal. Truthfully, the subway system is fairly straightforward and if you find a place near a station, you're good for getting around.

 

2. The touristy stuff is actually really fun if you've never seen it before. Go to Times Square, go to the Statue of Liberty, go to the top of the Empire State Building, take a bus tour, check out Central Park, the Met, the Science Museum (fantastic, btw), and walk the Brooklyn Bridge. These things are famous for a reason - they're really impressive! I can actually get discounts or free admission to almost all museums, so if you come, I might could help there.

 

3. Food! NY has killer food. Budget at least one good meal if you can. But there's good food for any budget. Second Avenue Deli for a true NY deli experience. Numerous amazing steakhouses if you like steak. Some of the others will have to chime in with suggestions - I'm sure they know more than me.

 

4. For city travel, NY is a walkable city. If it's a nice day, I love walking around Manhattan. Especially places like the Upper West Side (where A lives) and Midtown. If you need to get somewhere fast, the subway is easy, or cabs if you have to. Cab rides can add up if that's all you use, but my average cost per ride is only $5-10. Subway rides are $2.25 each, but get cheaper if you buy day passes (much better option if you plan to see a lot of things). The subways go to all the boroughs except Staten Island (which you can skip, lol).

 

5. Brooklyn: I'm partial here, but damn this is a beautiful borough. You could spend your whole vacation here walking the brownstone streets, eating at italian bakeries and coffee shops or experiencing the fruits of the brooklyn food movement. Prospect Park is better than Central imo - less crowded. If you want to do Brooklyn at all, let me know and I can hook you up with a separate set of to-dos (grab a drink with me will be one).

 

More later - if you have more specific ?'s, let me know.

[BumbleBeeJBG]

Probably the key in her understanding, eh?

 

In other news, I did buy In the Beginning and should have it in hand in the next couple weeks... Hopefully I won't have to wait that long though.

 

Also, I've been engaged by several people around here regarding last week's Dawkins talk. Generally they ask me if I went, what my opinion was of the quality and how I have dealt with it in the labs I teach. I have uniformally responded with, "Yes, I went. I was really disappointed with the pedantic questions people were asking." These opinions of mine are sharply contrasted to most, but some others were disappointed too, just for reasons different than mine.

 

What's interesting is how disturbed people become when I point out why the questions were disappointing. That this is because there are much deeper issues that need to be addressed, specifically regarding what Dawkins's philosophy says about the validity of human perception. I then go on to mention how important this is not only to the philosophical question of "what it means to be human" but also to the basic execution of science.

 

I espouse surprise at the fact that all of the people I have met so far agree with Dawkins on virtually all points but never ask these questions and don't like to discuss them. So far, my words are met with an introspective, serious look, followed by a quick brush off using some form of these two arguments:

 

1) These implications and therefore this discussion both really belong in the realm of philosophical argument and therefore don't have a place in scientific discussion.

 

or my personal favorite so far:

 

2) A God doesn't exist but it's ok to believe in such a thing.

 

When one of the professors here tried to pawn that second argument off on me today I pointed out that he had just dug himself more firmly into the problems of this purely evolutionary biology philosophy. He responded with a quick, "I'm meeting someone for lunch," and jetted away as fast as his sneakers could carry him.

 

It is interesting that when guided to the end conclusions of purely survival/reproduction view of "human", otherwise rational, lucid people all run away both physically and intellectually. Why not embrace these conclusions? We wholly except other faith/belief conclusions every day (yes, even you atheists), so why not these?

 

I think you already know the answer to the way people respond to the idea of God. Someone reads a 50 page book on the evidence of 6-day creation and attempts to debate someone who has spent their entire life studying science. That's an incredibly insulting thing to do. Just a glimpse of the kind of thing that happens all the time, that kinda stuff has been going on since way before even Darwin.

 

I'd ask how anyone who calls them self a man of science doesn't show hostility towards religion.

 

Anyways, my point is that hostility will inevitably breed a certain amount of irrationality and closed mindedness, because smart people are humans too.

 

It's going to continue to be that way too till the religious people of this world are secure enough to say, "I'll accept the facts whatever they may be." on a meaningful, universal level.

[ap123]

No clue, this is all academic at this point. What I'm interested in are reasons to visit because I've plenty reasons not to. It's not like I'm a million miles away, but it is easier to justify visiting a place like DC, know what I mean?

 

The wife and I are talking about setting some $$ aside from our income tax refund next year for one or more trips to some places. Charleston, the Georgia Aquarium, etc, but these are all regional.

 

Personally, I would like to visit DC for several days so I can work through the public museums and whatnot. I've been to plenty of other places/states in the US but NY has always been down on the list because of the perceived cost. Not just the travel to NY, but the lodging, food, admissions, travel around the city, etc.

 

So what makes the trip worthwhile and how do you limit costs without staying in some rathole in Queens?

 

Ooh!!!!!! Yes! Come to NY!! :D What to do really depends on what you enjoy, and your budget. If you come during the summer, it can be miserably hot, but lots of free happenings. I walk EVERYWHERE, so as Dan said, transportation costs are negligable. Cental Park, Riverside Park, completely free and a great way to spend time and get some real city flavor.

 

If you and your wife like museums, there are many amazing ones to choose from. The Museum of Natural History, of course, and The Met (my favorite, and it includes same day admission to the Cloisters, a quick ride away, very cool), MOMA, NY Botanical Gardens, the Guggenheim, the Intrepid, the Frick, and countless small museums for specific interests. If you're bringing the little ones, the Children's Museum of Manhattan is lovely and lots of fun. The Bronx Zoo is great for kids and adults, the gorilla exhibit is one of my favorite places in the city. If you wanted to catch a show, you can get discounted same day tickets at the TKTS booth (though still pricey and you have to spend a chunk of time waiting on line, but heck, you'll probably be serenaded by the naked singing cowboy).

 

The biggest chunk of your budget will go towards hotel. There are several small hotels in my area (Upper West Side) that aren't bad, a very quick subway ride to the more touristy spots, without the pricetag.Reserve way in advance, and if a deal seems to good to be true, it is. If you see something called a "boutique hotel" run the other way; it is a flea and bedbug ridden SRO.

 

The best bagels and the best pizza are both found in Bklyn, but there're good choices here in Manhattan too.

 

If you have specific interests, post them and the NYers among us will point you in the right direction.

[Deleted User 6]

The biggest chunk of your budget will go towards hotel. There are several small hotels in my area (Upper West Side) that aren't bad, a very quick subway ride to the more touristy spots, without the pricetag.Reserve way in advance, and if a deal seems to good to be true, it is. If you see something called a "boutique hotel" run the other way; it is a flea and bedbug ridden SRO.

 

My family has used places on VRBO for $150/night in brooklyn that are great, fwiw.

[yardboy]

I guess I must be too old or something, because I was first surprised that Isaac had never heard of Joseph Campbell, and that I haven't heard mention of him here yet. He's only the father of Mythology, which doesn't mean what you might think it does. I think discussing any particular belief system without taking it in the context of the other belief systems is futile.

Thank God I learned evolution formally (as if I didn't already know it from reading Darwin, Wallace, Lorenz, Leakey, and yes, Tinbergen) from a devout Catholic biologist (and me raised a Baptist) so that I see evolution as an "evolving" study in how God worked his miracles and Creationism as a throwback to the dark ages where people prefer the masses to be ignorant and superstitious in the name of their god system.

I do sometimes wonder how few there are who can do science all week and go to church on Sunday while getting knowledge out of both pursuits. Please tell me there are a lot.

 

Beides, why should biologists, anthropologists paleontoligists and geologists (is that all the ologists?) be the ones persecuted by the churches while pointedly ignoring the chemists. I suppose we get lumped in with the guranteed devil-worshipers, the physicists.

[ap123]

I guess I must be too old or something, because I was first surprised that Isaac had never heard of Joseph Campbell, and that I haven't heard mention of him here yet. He's only the father of Mythology, which doesn't mean what you might think it does.

 

+1 When I was in school, Joseph Campbell was required reading in lit classes and psych classes (went hand in hand with Jung).

[yardboy]

I never had "time" for it when I was in school, too busy with chemistry classes, but was fortunate to have a brother-in-law who was a Russian Lit professor who saw "Hero with a Thousand Faces" in a bookstore one day when I was with him, and went crazy when I said I'd never heard of him. I've kept that book for over 25 years while reading all his others from the library.

[Mr. Fosi]

Holy crap! Too many responses.

 

I guess I must be too old or something, because I was first surprised that Isaac had never heard of Joseph Campbell, and that I haven't heard mention of him here yet. He's only the father of Mythology, which doesn't mean what you might think it does.

 

I don't know how much it has to do with age rather than how the requirements to get a bachelors degree have been dumbed-down. Plus, I took no anthropology and the only philosophy class I took was symbolic logic.

 

I do sometimes wonder how few there are who can do science all week and go to church on Sunday while getting knowledge out of both pursuits. Please tell me there are a lot.

 

I know of several "science people" who go to church on Sunday but they generally do it to appease their spouse rather than because they have any investment in it.

 

Beides, why should biologists, anthropologists paleontoligists and geologists (is that all the ologists?) be the ones persecuted by the churches while pointedly ignoring the chemists.

 

Probably because you chemists don't have any loud mouths spouting off (and selling books) about how your science has disproved the existence of God or saying that any religious belief is inherently irrational. As soon as a couple of those pop up, you'll have multitudes breathing down your neck.

 

I think you already know the answer to the way people respond to the idea of God. Someone reads a 50 page book on the evidence of 6-day creation and attempts to debate someone who has spent their entire life studying science. That's an incredibly insulting thing to do.

 

I don't agree. I don't see an insult there, I just see naive boldness. Maybe this is because I was always the kid who wanted to sharpen his claws on the experts.

 

I'll tell you a story: When I was younger, my parents enrolled me in karate classes at a dojo. At the end of many classes, we would have 30 min or so of sparring and they would always pair students of the same rank together. I was never happy with that because I always felt that it was too easy and I requested some rounds with the master and he agreed. I remember scoring a point but he, of course, scored three and won the match. I didn't realize it at the time, but he (of course!) let me have that point and not because I deserved it.

 

He could have been insulted by my pugnacious and presumptive request, especially after I had been vocally whining about how easy it was to spar my peers. Instead, he granted my request and humored me, knowing that the encouragement of scoring a point would spur me to continue on and to improve. The behavior of my former master looks a lot more like wisdom to me than a person with an overinflated sense of their own knowledge and worth who feels slighted when an undereducated person challenges them.

 

I'd ask how anyone who calls them self a man of science doesn't show hostility towards religion.

 

I guess maybe I don't know what a "man of science" is then. After all, the history of science is filled with ranks of religious people and deists. This attitude of "you have to be an atheist to do science" seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon and one born of people who are looking for a simplistic way deal with reality.

 

Anyways, my point is that hostility will inevitably breed a certain amount of irrationality and closed mindedness, because smart people are humans too.

 

Right, which is why I'm not still surprised at their hostility and fear; at least not now that I've had time to think about it. I was surprised at first... I guess that initial surprise was a product of me being in my own head. Now I find their fear comedic, especially since their response is the same one the deride in what they call "religious" people. I guess neither viewpoint has cornered the market on ignorant fear.

 

About the NY suggestions: After responding to these other posts, I am responded-out. I may have some questions tomorrow.

[Deleted User 6]

you in a new york state of mind yet?

[ap123]

Maybe we scared him off.

 

I went to the bookstore to buy Blue Like Jazz, and bought a bio of Frank Zappa instead. That's what I get for lurking in the Lounge.

[Deleted User 6]

haha

[Mr. Fosi]

So to recap: Manhattan is easy-access to most places but it's pricey. Better deals can be found in Brooklyn or Queens. Touristy-stuff is fun, but likely not very cheap? What does it cost (approximately) to do stuff like bus tours, the Statue, the Met and other museums? I want to do that kind of stuff, but it's hard to plan if the entry-fee info isn't known. Don't spend time looking that info up if you don't know already. I figured you guys would have a ballpark figure for that kind of stuff.

 

When you say "at least one good meal", what do you mean by that? Like a 4-star place? Would that not require a reservation well in advance? I'm more interested in the deli, coffeehouse, pizza joint type stuff since it's denser in culture. What is this "Brooklyn Food Movement" you speak of? Because I've not been to NY, I really have no clue where to spend the time and money... I guess it's a get-what-you-get sort of thing.

 

Thanks for the warning regarding "boutique hotel" but what is "SRO"? Standing room only? Also, is $150 a night a good price for a non-rathole near the subway?

 

Are there any places I or the fam shouldn't go?

 

Thanks for the info guys! This is more info that I would find in a week of researching on my own.

[ap123]

Looks like you've got a good handle on what we're trying to convey.

 

Yes, I think you can find somewhere decent to stay for around $150 per night, depending on when you come. SRO=single room occupancy.

 

Cost of admission to the museums vary, anywhere from 15-35 for basic admissions. NY tip: Admission to the bigger ones is often a suggested donation, you can suggest a different amount. The only problem with that is you can't get into any of the special exhibits if you don't pay the full suggested amount. If you're a student with ID there's a discount, and most of the museums and zoos have a certain time slot each week where admission is free. I think it's Tuesdays at the Bronx Zoo, late Friday afternoons at the Met...

 

There are quite a few walking tours to be found that are fun and free. Don't worry about the cost of restaurants, if you can swing a fancy meal, have fun; if not, there's lots of great food to be found for more reasonable prices. I live here with kids, on a strict budget, no four star restaurants for us. One exception, if you and or your wife have a sweet tooth, you MUST go to serendipity--for dessert only--sinful and heavenly at the same time.

[Deleted User 6]

I'm on my phone, so more later. Fosi, I'll send you a link for a place to stay. Museums I can help you get most of your fam in for free if I'm not mistaken. Brooklyn food movement is a newer wave of gourmet places that won't break the bank like some of the manhattan ones. Some touristy stuff is pricey (bus tours, shows) but some isn't. I'll get back to you on that.

[Weetabix7]

Maybe we scared him off.

 

I went to the bookstore to buy Blue Like Jazz, and bought a bio of Frank Zappa instead. That's what I get for lurking in the Lounge.

 

Ohmigosh, Blue Like Jazz is one of my favorite books ever.

I always keep multiple copies of it around to give to ppl.

[Mr. Fosi]

So BLJ isn't cracked out?

[Weetabix7]

So BLJ isn't cracked out?

 

Cracked out???

That book had a huge impact on me, and I mean that in a positive way.

[Deleted User 6]

Cracked out???

That book had a huge impact on me, and I mean that in a positive way.

 

Weetie, read the above NYC info and plan a trip.

[Weetabix7]

Weetie, read the above NYC info and plan a trip.

 

I'm broke, so unless you're financing it, that's not an option.

Thanks though.

It would be fun to get a group trip of a few NR members in the South to NJ and NY, I've got several friends in both areas.

[yardboy]

Cracked out???

That book had a huge impact on me, and I mean that in a positive way.

 

I'd never heard of the book, so I went to Amazon and read through some of the reviews. Wow. What a collection of opinions "Love, Hate, boring, inspirational"....... One phrase stuck out as a frightful representative of some people's attitudes. "....as far as smoking weed, it's illegal so probably not something God wants us to do....."

Maybe that's what's wrong with me, (and I hadn't really even realized there must be something wrong with me...) I didn't know we lived in a militant Christian state, where all laws were laid down by God, with the penalties sharp and clear.

[Weetabix7]

I'd never heard of the book, so I went to Amazon and read through some of the reviews. Wow. What a collection of opinions "Love, Hate, boring, inspirational"....... One phrase stuck out as a frightful representative of some people's attitudes. "....as far as smoking weed, it's illegal so probably not something God wants us to do....."

Maybe that's what's wrong with me, (and I hadn't really even realized there must be something wrong with me...) I didn't know we lived in a militant Christian state, where all laws were laid down by God, with the penalties sharp and clear.

 

Was one of the reviewers saying that in response to something said in the book, or what?

Cause that doesn't sound like something from the book at all.