Refugium vs Skimmer

[ZeRo 91]

I was wondering if a HOB Refugium would be better than a skimmer on a 20 Gallon Tank? I came across a hand me down CPR Aqua Fuge and was wondering if I should even attempt putting it on my tanks. Also what are the benefits of using a refugium? I know they help reduce Phosphate, Nitrate and Nitrite and also help to produce Copepods and such, but is there anything else besides that?

[Reco]

I was wondering if a HOB Refugium would be better than a skimmer on a 20 Gallon Tank? I came across a hand me down CPR Aqua Fuge and was wondering if I should even attempt putting it on my tanks. Also what are the benefits of using a refugium? I know they help reduce Phosphate, Nitrate and Nitrite and also help to produce Copepods and such, but is there anything else besides that?

 

With the fuge, you can do a reverse light cycle to lessen any day/ night PH swings. Skimmer will reduce nutrients before they can become nitrites/nitrates...fuge will absorb them when thay are present. You can do both if you dont want to worry about water changes so often.

[Mr. Fosi]

^-- Pretty good summary.

[RayWhisperer]

Agreed...

 

Just for the record, a skimmer will also reduce/eliminate PH swings as well.

[Reco]

Agreed...

 

Just for the record, a skimmer will also reduce/eliminate PH swings as well.

 

I wasn't aware of this. I understand why the reverse light cycle does this, but how does a Skimmer manage to do it? I could see how it could help stabilize your PH long term by removing nutrients, but I dont understand how it could prevent Day/Night PH swings? All the bubbling continually oxygenating the water??

[icenine]

Yep ... air exchange.

[RayWhisperer]

All the bubbling continually oxygenating the water??

Drops in D.O. levels will cause the PH to drop as well. A protein skimmer keeps D.O. levels near saturation, thus keeping PH stable.

 

It's the same as a refugium, but much more effective.

[Reco]

Yep ... air exchange.

 

Ahh... thank you! I keep telling the gf I am not as stupid as I look. Now I have PROOF!!!

[RayWhisperer]

Something is messed up with your time....

Take a look at the time stamp on the quotes. Your in the same time zone as Ice and I. Why are you two hours ahead?

[icenine]

He must have a time machine!... hey, I need some scores from you a little later.

[ZeRo 91]

So running a refugium will be just as good/if not better than running a skimmer, (more naturally way I suppose)? So I just have to watch PH levels and make sure that there is gas exchange at the top of the water?

[Reco]

Drops in D.O. levels will cause the PH to drop as well. A protein skimmer keeps D.O. levels near saturation, thus keeping PH stable.

 

It's the same as a refugium, but much more effective.

 

Thanks for the info! BUT, I'm sitting here trying to figure out what D.O. stands for, and I cant lol. Pardon my ignorance please

[RayWhisperer]

Dissolved Oxygen.

 

So running a refugium will be just as good/if not better than running a skimmer, (more naturally way I suppose)? So I just have to watch PH levels and make sure that there is gas exchange at the top of the water?

Both have their pro's and con's, but I think a refugium will be easier.

 

When you say "gas exchange at the top of the water", did you mean a surface skimmer? A surface skimmer is completely different than a protein skimmer. You can, and should use a surface skimmer, if possible.

[ZeRo 91]

Dissolved Oxygen.

Both have their pro's and con's, but I think a refugium will be easier.

 

When you say "gas exchange at the top of the water", did you mean a surface skimmer? A surface skimmer is completely different than a protein skimmer. You can, and should use a surface skimmer, if possible.

 

 

What I meant by gas exchange at the top of the water was making sure that there was some sort of Oxygenation going on to Oxygenate the water such as pointing a power head upwards to create a rippling effect at the top of the water, or maybe something else that disrupts the water.

[RayWhisperer]

What I meant by gas exchange at the top of the water was making sure that there was some sort of Oxygenation going on to Oxygenate the water such as pointing a power head upwards to create a rippling effect at the top of the water, or maybe something else that disrupts the water.

OK, just making sure.

Yes, you want as much gas exchange as possible.

A refugium, will absorb CO2 and release oxygen when the light is on it. The down side to that is, it will do exactly the opposite when the light is off. This is why people run a refugium opposite the tanks photoperiod.

HTH.

[ZeRo 91]

OK, just making sure.

Yes, you want as much gas exchange as possible.

A refugium, will absorb CO2 and release oxygen when the light is on it. The down side to that is, it will do exactly the opposite when the light is off. This is why people run a refugium opposite the tanks photoperiod.

HTH.

 

 

Yeah I had read about people running there refugium light opposite of the tanks Photoperiod and was also planning to do that as well.

[jimmy595]

As far as DO is concerned I highly doubt that a skimmer tearing up atmospheric air would get higher DO readings than a fuge. The air being injected by the skimmer is like 25% O2. The O2 being released by the macro algae in a refugium is 100% O2 which often results in DO levels higher than 100% satn. For optimal PH stability I would reccomend Dual fuges, ONe with light for 12 H during the day and one with light for 12 hours after that.

[RayWhisperer]

As far as DO is concerned I highly doubt that a skimmer tearing up atmospheric air would get higher DO readings than a fuge. The air being injected by the skimmer is like 25% O2. The O2 being released by the macro algae in a refugium is 100% O2 which often results in DO levels higher than 100% satn. For optimal PH stability I would reccoment Dual fuges, ONe with light for 12 H during the day and one with light for 12 hours after that.

It works much more rapidly than a refugium.

 

Macro cannot photosythisize too quick. In order to optimize a regugium, the flow through it has to be brought way down. Most don't do this, they rather rely on the water being cycled through many, many times.

 

Even though a skimmer is using atmospheric air, it's doing this at a rate far superior to a refugium. This, of course, depends on the pump used. But still, say 10x turnover per hour, versus <1x turnover per hour.

[jimmy595]

Some one with a DO kit needs to check this out for us. I use a lot of flow in my fuges bcuz its just chaeto in there, and there are always tons of microbubbles being flushed off the chaeto into the tank (One of them is a soap dish fuge in tank with a duetto mini dumping water in the top). I worked at a fish farm last summer where fish are crammed in at densities far greater than they would normally survive at. One time there was a mix up and a tank was being pumped atmospheric air through an airstone instead of pure O2 and the fish began to die within hours no matter how high we turned up the atmospheric air. In planted tanks you can have ###### for flow/turnover and still get like 120% saturation. It doesnt matter what the turnover is, if your oxygen source is 300x the concentration of O2 I THINK you will get much higher mg/L of O2.

[RayWhisperer]

Some one with a DO kit needs to check this out for us.

Agreed

One time there was a mix up and a tank was being pumped atmospheric air through an airstone instead of pure O2 and the fish began to die within hours no matter how high we turned up the atmospheric air.

An airstone has a minimal impact due to circulation. A pump brings fresh water in constantly.

[Mr. Fosi]

I'm gonna have to say that the size/shape of the chaeto ball and the light intensity/spectrum are pretty integral to the photosynthetic capacity of the chaeto in question.

 

If you have a 4x4 chaeto ball that is lit by a 9W actinic lamp, it's gonna be beat down by a by an AquaC Remora...

[formerly icyuodd/icyoud2]

my clocks never been correct either

 

i realize the end result is similar, but do you guys really think an hob fuge holds a candle to a skimmer when it comes to removing d.o./nitrate/trites from the water?

i dont myself. but the comparison keeps coming up.

 

dont get me wrong, i think a ref is an important part of a well rounded system.

 

i've kept a macro aquarium (with its own sump) in one form or another for over a year.

 

imo a 50g ref with a 25g sump (both loaded with macro's) is no match for a css.

 

if this is the case, what would an hob fuge do for an aquarium?

 

now if your macro show signs of sexual behavior, your gonna wish you had that skimmer.

[Mr. Fosi]

It is important to note that refugia and skimmers are fundamentally different and do different things.

 

Refugia don't remove the non-polar compunds that skimmers do and skimmers don't remove the dissolved NO3 that macroalgae does. To be most effective you need to have a double-barreled approach: a skimmer for the as-yet undecomposed lipids and peptides + a macro-stocked refugium to remove the low molecular weight stuff (nitrogenous & phosphorus-containing compunds) that has already fallen off the aformentioned organic molecules.

[formerly icyuodd/icyoud2]

It is important to note that refugia and skimmers are fundamentally different and do different things.

 

Refugia don't remove the non-polar compunds that skimmers do and skimmers don't remove the dissolved NO3 that macroalgae does. To be most effective you need to have a double-barreled approach: a skimmer for the as-yet undecomposed lipids and peptides + a macro-stocked refugium to remove the low molecular weight stuff (nitrogenous & phosphorus-containing compunds) that has already fallen off the aformentioned organic molecules.

 

what he said ^^^^ :)

[RayWhisperer]

Can't argue with that!