75g Humboldt Bay biotope...re-done!

[musicalmike]

Hey Kenny....Nice tank!!!! You have some very nice specimens. I do have a few concerns though. First and foremost is the information you say you were given by the local DFG and University in regards to collection. They are 100% wrong!!!!! Technically you need a Scientific Collection Permit to do what you are doing. You can't just take stuff from the ocean and stick it in a fish tank. I know that people do it all the time, but it is not legal and a very hefty fine if DFG catches you!! I'm not trying to put a hamper on what you are doing, only help you and anyone else who want's to get into this form of reefing, from getting into trouble.

As you know, the terminology listed in the DFG’s can sometimes be a bit cloudy. There are MANY grey areas. But you must trust me on this. I have talked specifically to DFG on some of these issues and they interpret the laws as they see fit!!! Even if you can’t find it….it is in a provision somewhere in their library of laws, codes, and MPA’S

 

Here is a link to the collection permit necessary to retain aquatic species in California.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1379.pdf

 

You will see as you study this document there are many details and requirements to follow. These are in addition to the standard DFG regs.

 

I have copy/pasted a few provisions listed in the current DFG regs. Some of these are general provisions, others are more specific. There are many others not listed here, so don't take this a complete list or anything.

 

For instance.....There is a minimum size requirment for lingcod, I'm pretty sure yours is under the legal limit. If your flatfish is truely a halibut. then it is also under the legal size limit. Eel grass......not allowed!!!

Not to mention the following rule

 

1.63. Movement of Live Fish. Except as provided in Sections 4.00 through 4.30 and 230, live

fin fish may not be transported alive from the water where taken.

 

29.05. General

( Take of all invertebrates is prohibited within state marine reserves. Take of certain invertebrates

may be prohibited within state marine parks and state marine conservation areas as per subsection

632(. In addition, tidal invertebrates may not be taken in any tidepool or other areas

between the high tide mark (defined as Mean Higher High Tide) and 1,000 feet seaward and

lateral to the low tide mark (defined as Mean Lower Low Water)

 

(1) Except where prohibited within state marine reserves, state marine parks, state marine

conservation areas, or other special closures only the following may be taken: red abalone, limpets,

moon snails, turban snails, chiones, clams, cockles, mussels, rock scallops, native oysters,

octopuses, squid, crabs, lobsters, shrimp, sand dollars, sea urchins and worms except that no

worms may be taken in any mussel bed, unless taken incidental to the harvesting of mussels.

 

 

30.10. Prohibited Species. No eel grass (Zostera), surf grass (Phyllospadix), or sea palm

(Postelsia) may be cut or disturbed.

 

Any lobster may be brought to the surface of the water

for the purpose of measuring, but no undersize lobster may be brought aboard any boat, placed

in any type of receiver, kept on the person or retained in any person’s possession or under his

direct control; all lobsters shall be measured immediately upon being brought to the surface of

the water, and any undersize lobster shall be released immediately into the water

 

Next, I am concerned with the quantity of life you have aquired in an EXTREMELY short amount of time. Your tank has been running for less then 6 months and you have an absolutely enourmous bio load for that amount of time!!!! The natural process to cycle a coldwater tank takes twice that of a warm water tank. Your tanks should have cycled 3-4 months minimum before you started slowly adding an item at a time. Not to mention the amount of time in between collecting to give the tank time to balance out from the new load. I know you are doing regular trips to your local bay to replenish the food and help with the load, but I can't see how life can 'sustain" for a long period of time. Not to mention the lack of a consitant cooling source. 1 liter water bottles will only work for so long and can not keep the water at a constant temp. Get a chiller!!!!! You also mentiond you are using a fan to cool the tank resulting in excessive evaporation. This gives indication you have a constant rise and fall of salt levels in a reletivly short amount of time. All of these issues are a recipe for disaster.

What type of water are you using to top off and how frequent? Do you make sure the water temp of your water top-off's and changes are the same? What are your nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, ph, ect, ect?

With all them critters, I would recommend more circulation and a skimmer. Also.....give your tank time to absorb the inbalance a new critter can create. Take your time.......don't rush!!!

[Mynameskenny19]

Hey mike, thanks for the info and i appreciate your concern, but a few of my friends in the HSu marine lab gave me a green light on this and we keep in touch all the time about the tanks parameters and the care of the life in the tank. if youve studied the humboldt bay like we have, you'd notice that the salinity levels go up and down from 1.027 - 1.036 EVERYDAY!!! lots of freshwater gets dumped into the bay all the time by humans and rivers/creeks/ rain all the time! and not to mention all the messed up chemicals put into the bay such as mercury, lead paint, fuel products, etc. we top off our tank with ro/di water every day at a constant temp of 61 degrees which is the same temp the tank stays at all day and all night. we do not use frozen water bottles anymore. we have good flow, a HOB filter rated for 75g and a canister rated for 75 - 90g.

our lighting is good enough since the bay hardly gets any light and the way i see it, our tank is far more healthy than the bay where everything came from. all of our critters are doing well. about cycling, we cycled for 8 and a half weeks even when all the stuff was collected from the bay. as for the laws about collecting, we followed them. we didnt collect from any state beaches, protected areas, or any special areas. we did not collect from the ocean, collected from the bay. as for movement of live fish, wtf do you think happens when you go fishing?! the fish are still alive usually when you catch them and take em home. when they die, they start to taste bad. the ling cod isnt in out tank, the flat fish was a small sanddab after careful identification, there are different species of "eel grass". our nitrites, nitrates, and ammonia are at and around 0 ppm. ph is <8. we as in my dad, me, and some of my buddies have went and talked to some people at DFG and they said we could do what we're doing as long as we follow the rules and he has viewed our tank at our HOUSE so we do have permission to be doing what we're doing.

thank you for telling me stuff i already knew. also, our lfs here frequently buys hermits from me for their coldwater tank.

 

-kenny

[musicalmike]

Hey mike, thanks for the info and i appreciate your concern, but a few of my friends in the HSu marine lab gave me a green light on this

 

If DFG catches you and you don’t have a permit “on your persons”, your friends at HSU can not help you. I don’t care what they tell you. It’s the law!!!

and we keep in touch all the time about the tanks parameters and the care of the life in the tank.

 

This is good…very good!!

 

if youve studied the humboldt bay like we have, you'd notice that the salinity levels go up and down from 1.027 - 1.036 EVERYDAY!!! lots of freshwater gets dumped into the bay all the time by humans and rivers/creeks/ rain all the time! and not to mention all the messed up chemicals put into the bay such as mercury, lead paint, fuel products, etc.

You have a good point

 

we top off our tank with ro/di water every day at a constant temp of 61 degrees which is the same temp the tank stays at all day and all night. we do not use frozen water bottles anymore.

Does this mean you got a chiller?

 

we have good flow, a HOB filter rated for 75g and a canister rated for 75 - 90g.

 

OK

our lighting is good enough since the bay hardly gets any light

 

I never had any issue with your lighting. I know that lighting is not as much as an issue in your area. Mine to for that matter. We don’t live to far from each other.

 

 

and the way i see it, our tank is far more healthy than the bay where everything came from.

 

Your tank may be more healthy in your opinion of what healthy should be, in comparison to your bay. But in reality, the bay is still a larger body of water much more capable of providing a proper environment for it’s inhabitants then man .

 

all of our critters are doing well.

 

Your tank has been running for less then 6 months…..I hope you can say the same in 6 months to a year

about cycling, we cycled for 8 and a half weeks even when all the stuff was collected from the bay.

 

8 ½ weeks is not enough for a coldwater tank to cycle…and it doesn’t matter where your stuff came from. The fact is, you are putting massive amounts of organisms in your tank in a very short amount of time. There is NO WAY your tank can keep up with it for a sustained amount of time. Again it may look good now, but the success of a tank is how it looks in two or three years, not today.

 

as for the laws about collecting, we followed them.

 

You did not!!! Did you collect from any tide pools? Do you have any fish in your tank? Did you have a short Lingcod in your tank? Did you collect ANY TYPE of eal grass?

Don’t sit there and lie to me

 

we didnt collect from any state beaches, protected areas, or any special areas. we did not collect from the ocean, collected from the bay.

 

It doesn’t matter. The bay is a body of water controlled by the DFG, where the same rules apply

as for movement of live fish, wtf do you think happens when you go fishing?!

the fish are still alive usually when you catch them and take em home.

You can interpret the law as you think it means, or you can take it for what it is. It is not legal!!!!

 

when they die, they start to taste bad. the ling cod isnt in out tank, the flat fish was a small sanddab after careful identification,

there are different species of "eel grass".

 

There may be different species, but the statement doesn’t say you can’t take this kind or that kind….it says NO EAL GRASS may be taken. This tells me….all species are covered.

 

our nitrites, nitrates, and ammonia are at and around 0 ppm. ph is <8.

 

Probably from the frequent water changes you say your doing

 

we as in my dad, me, and some of my buddies have went and talked to some people at DFG and they said we could do what we're doing as long as we follow the rules

 

But you are not following them. It is not difficult to apply for a collection permit nor does it cost very much money. It’s the right thing to do.

 

and he has viewed our tank at our HOUSE so we do have permission to be doing what we're doing.

 

Do you have a fishing license? I hope so…..because without that you can’t take anything for any reason!!!! Do you have a California Collection Permit? I don’t think so……and without it you can’t do what you are doing.

 

thank you for telling me stuff i already knew.

 

Then you know you should get a collection permit!!!! Hopefully this info will save someone else who is doing this, from a big headache.

also, our lfs here frequently buys hermits from me for their coldwater tank.

 

Also not legal!!!!

 

I am all for cold water tanks and wish you the best with yours. But it should be done within the law. They are not only there to help you, but to help the environment form people just taking stuff they shouldn’t.

[Mynameskenny19]

Ok man, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. The DFG officers out here are pretty chill and let us do what we did, so whatever. Doesn't really matter now anymore cuz my dad is lazy and doesnt want to take care of the at all and wants to turn it to a FW Native tank with grren sunfish, but I don't think he's allowed to do that.

 

What do you suggest on that? Oh and haha, Los Angeles is not that close to where I live

 

Hey, do you have a CW tank of your own?

[musicalmike]

Ok, I won't argue anymore. But it's not argument, it's knowledge. For you , me, and anyone else who reads this thread. I know there are some cool DFG officers around, but someone else might not be so lucky.

Sorry to hear your dad tossed in the towel. Maybe you could start up your own tank.

I would call the DFG field office in your area and ask them if there is any special permits you need to collect sunfish form you area. You might have to prod them and talk to a few differnt people untill you find the right person.

Proximity to one another is a matter of relativity. If you lived in Iowa or Florida, perhaps even England, I would say you live far from me. The fact that I am in Los Angeles and you are in Humbolt put us in the same state. Your less the 9 hours driving time from me, about 500 miles. I consider that close.

We drive 5 hours to Mammoth to snowboard like 6-8 times a year and Tahoe is like 7.

What makes us real close is the water. We both have a very similar coldwater enviornment in our back yard. Most of the coastal species thrive in both our areas.

 

Yes, I have a CW tank. http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...p;#entry1819159

[Greenstar]

Ok man, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. The DFG officers out here are pretty chill and let us do what we did, so whatever. Doesn't really matter now anymore cuz my dad is lazy and doesnt want to take care of the at all and wants to turn it to a FW Native tank with grren sunfish, but I don't think he's allowed to do that.

 

What do you suggest on that? Oh and haha, Los Angeles is not that close to where I live

 

Hey, do you have a CW tank of your own?

 

Green sunfish aren't natives, DFG is not chill around here, You can recieve animals collected with a permit from the marine lab totally legal. I live in arcata, HSU wildlife major.

[Mynameskenny19]

Thats pretty sweet man, hope you do good!

 

Well, my dad wants to take the tank down around X-mas time. So, i'll update again i guess in a couple weeks.

i take pics of right now then contrast them to couple weeks/month. See ya!

[scottyreef]

why does he want you to take your tank down?

[Mynameskenny19]

Says its too much work to keep it going when he does nothing.

 

But he does pay for it though. We're taking it down around New Year i think. He wants to do freshwater and make it look cool, but i keep telling him that freshwater is still work, just not as much. And also he's gonna have to spend money to make it cool too. He wants green sunfish in it from Trinity Lake up here.

But im gonna try to convinve him on putting a silver gar in there instead.

 

Hey, you got any input on my 20g long ctenophore tank that im starting up here in a couple days?

[scottyreef]

I didnt know your starting a ctenophore tank i will go back and read and i will post in a bit

[asiankatie]

i love love love this tank! great job!

[nckwrn]

I happened to live in Arcata. I didn't know it was llegal to get stuff like that out of the bay. Those lights should be enough for a Humboldt bay biotope. It's never sunny here! Im planning on starting some kind of reef tank soon, this could be a possibility. One question, whats the average temp. in the tank? The bay is usually like 50 degrees, wouldn't you need to use a chiller to get that cold.

[musicalmike]

Yes...you absolutely need a chiller!!!! There is no other way to consistantly maintain the water temperature at 50 degrees.

[Mynameskenny19]

Exactly what mike said! Well, our tank is still around 55- 60 degrees F, but that doesnt really matter anymore. We've been slowly taking livestock out and putting it back into the bay over the past week. So now the only stuff from they bay inside our tank is the sand, rock, water, and a few anenomes and 1 dungie crab. Thats all going to be back in the bay by monday. We're going freshwater with it. nckwrn, go with a reef tank! Theyre wayyyyyy easier than my bay tank was!!!

And cheaper too! Do you have any idea how much brine shrimp those rockfish eat?!!! almost half a pack a day!!!!!!!! They ate 7 cubes in the morning and 7 at night!

 

Anyhoo, we're turning the 75g into FW and getting rid of 2 of our 29g's and also our 10's, a 20g long, and a 20g xtra high. So after that, we should have only the 75 down stairs, my 20 standard in my room, my brother's 10, and my 38g vivarium.

[blizzardscout2]

I read through your topic and I just wanted to say that your tank was awesome. It is cool to see coldwater tanks since I only see that while diving here in the Puget Sound. Good luck with future endeavors.

 

Reese

[Danyal]

your tank was very facinating, if i had a chiller(i may get one) i would ablsolutely love to do a similar tank. i do have a suggestion though for your FW native tank(us native, not CA native since green sunfish are an invasive non-native sunfish) use the same sand since it looks quite nice and collect driftwood and rocks from the area you're getting the sunfish from. with a CA fishing liscense it is perfectly legal to remove the sunfish, however it is another thing to put them back(totally illegal) there may also be some issues with keeping the sunfish in a captive environment however i wouldn't worry too much if your local DFG officers don't care. good tankmates would include small crayfish, large minnows and a smaller species of bullhead, make sure any tankmates are too large to eat, my green sunfish(i've got a 180g w/ 5 of them) will mostly ignore anything too large to eat, but everything else is eaten sooner or later.

[Mynameskenny19]

Yeah, it was a pretty cool tank. But now its standing upright in our shed waiting to be filled up again and done FW, but that's gonna be sometime after X-mas. Thanks for the advice. We won't be collecting the sunfish though, cuz they sell them at our LFS for $4.95/fish. Can you possibly post pics of your 180g? Oh, my 20g FW tank I started a few months ago is now completely overrun by plants and I have a hard time finding my celebes halfbeak and my pea puffers! I bought around 20 or 25 of those lil bulb starter packs you get at Petco and planted all of the bulbs in the substrate and BOOM! Solid green now. Do you know of any fish that eat duckweed?

 

And back to the SW. I'm getting myself one of those AGA brand 55g kits in a couple months for myself and turning that into an AIO tank with the built in fuge and such. I'll start the thread or something in a couple months when that happens though. See ya!

[adinsxq]

nICE TANK.

[Danyal]

Sorry, i don't have any pics(or at least ones that i would want people seeing) of my 180g, and i just broke it down. if possible i wouldn't get green sunfish, they get large(12") and aren't that attractive, imo. look for pygmy sunfish if you want a tank with a bunch of small fish, or dollar sunfish if you want larger sunfish or blue spotted for med fish, my personaly first choice would be blue spotted sunfish, madtoms, larger darters, shiners and then a 10g refugium on the side with pygmy sunfish.

[Mynameskenny19]

Ok, my dad was going to start the FW thing, but decided against it a few months back, so we kept it SW. Most of the stuff we were going to throw back we kept in buckets, but now they're in the tank and have recovered and all that stuff. Tank has been going strong for about 5 months now.

Pics in a few. Oh and we have some new additions to btw! 5 new baby gunnels!!! Only one of them comes out though and he's pretty shy. I'll try to get some pics of him. Should I start a new thread since we pretty much started a new tank i guess? Idk. Anyhoo, pics in a few minutes after I take them.

[IAN >'_'<]

New pics are here! Yeah, last night around 2 am, we went to the bay at an extreme low tide and got some more Caulerpa and other types of macro. We also got around 40 more anenomes! Thanks for lettin me know about the other uses of a credit card jeremai. As you might notice in our pics, the "devil fish" lol is the centerpiece fish in our tank. When you look at him from different angles, his eyes change color!!!

Anyhoo, here's the pics!

 

FTS

 

Hope you enjoy!

i this fts it looks so cool

[The_Yellow_Pony]

I just briefly took a look through.

 

Amazing Dude!

 

I wish I was close enough to anything to take a 2am bay trip

[Mynameskenny19]

Yeah, it's pretty cool. This post sucks though, check out the other one and look on past page 3. That's where it starts to get good i think with the pictures cuz I got a new camrea about that time i think.

[Hero]

Good job on the tank.