High carbonate hardness

[tinyreef]

1. i think dave goes over some of this in his mg 411 thread. thiel is correct on the ca/mg ratio. (who's gonna argue with one of the original innovators of the hobby? one of the reef gods!)

 

2. optimum (reef aquarium) levels are more around 400ppm and 1450ppm for calcium and magnesium, respectively, imo. they shouldn't drop just because (typically) of a wc but that directly depends upon your salt's levels for those elements.

 

3. you can up your dosage, it shouldn't have a deleterious effect unless you go crazy and dump in ALOT in a short span of time. mfg recommendations plus a half have worked for me in the past to boost levels. (temporary)

 

4. depends on your salt content, i would suspect lower tho in the long run, thru bio-mechanisms and nsw levels are typically lower (i think most mixes try to emulate nsw rather than overdose, Reef Crystals is an exception tho, i believe).

 

5. never heard iodine affecting that but i'll defer to someone else.

[SplendidWarrior]

I use Tropic Marin salt. Is it low in Mg and Ca?

 

I forgot to add that even though my Mg and Ca level are tad low, their ratio is 4:1 which is good according to A. Thiel. Oh, I've also manage to get my carbonate hardness down to 17dkH from a high of 21dkH. Does these mean I've gone a step in the right direction?

[tinyreef]

well, according to mdp it's a little low but that's what dosings are all about. (it's what i like in the hobby)

 

i just started using TM myself a couple of months back so i can't really give a valid assessment. seems ok/good so far.

 

th ca/mg ratio is good but the actual proportions just seem low to me. for example, i believe nsw has about 380ppm for calcium and imo aquariums should be higher due to their inherently 'closed-system' state. again, i ain't arguing with thiel as i don't even know enough to polish his tanks.

 

lowering that sky high dkh is good imo so i would infer you're on the right track. i would've suspected you have a higher proportion of CaCO3 and MgCO3 tho. i'm not sure if they (readily) show up on ca and mg tests.

 

they're not as effective buffers (as NaHCO3, Na2CO3 & K2CO3) but do show up on the hardness tests, i believe.

[SplendidWarrior]

Since the Mg/Ca in TM salt is low, should I increase their level in my water conditioning tank before wc?

 

I failed chemistry in school, so you'll have to use layman terms with me. What are NaHCO3, Na2CO3....etc? Sorry...

 

Also, my pH has gone from 8 to 7.9. Does the TM salt mix and fresh water top off have anything to do with this? I notice the TM salt mix yields a pH of only 7.9. Have you tested yours before?

[tinyreef]

to be honest, nope, never tested the mix. (bad habit not to test tho ) usually fresh mixes are pretty high in pH tho so that low of a pH sounds strange. what are you using for your source water?

 

those molecules are the common carbonates and bicarbonates usually available. there are other chemicals as well tho.

 

i'm still suspicious of the low mg/ca. i still believe they may be locked up in carbonate bonds. the lower pH may result in an increase (system seeking equilibrium). test again, much later tho, you may see a rise in those elements.

 

if you're going to dose, then supplement the system as a whole rather than just the wc part imo. it'll be easier to track/record and less likely to mis-dose. right now i would stick to the wc as others had suggested as some of your readings are jumping around. (i.e. pH) test your source water or question your test kits even. something doesn't jive quite right, something is seriously depressing your pH.

[SplendidWarrior]

I use normal condition tap water for top offs and wc cos the water source here is pretty good (pH 7.5).

 

The newly mixed TM salt water I tested yielded a pH of 8.2 but after a couple of days it'll fall and its at pH 7.8 just now. Is this normal?

 

I've not tested Mg/Ca, dkH level of my tank today but the pH is now at 7.8. What do you think is the problem; could it be due to the high bio load? But the ammonia and nitrate level are always zero with just a minute trace of nitrite present.

[tinyreef]

first and foremost i would stop using the tap. it may be good enough to drink but no where good enough for a reef imo. conditioned tap is good enough for FW but unless you're tapping into the Pacific ocean i wouldn't ever use tap. oh, there may be the very rare municipality/utility that has that perfect natural balance but that definitely isn't the rule of thumb ime.

 

test the dkh of the tap, you want a zero reading! most likely you're not going to get zero but something much higher. use distilled or ro/di, you want to start at 7 pH & nothing in there imo. let the salt mix adjust (do its job) the water to optimal conditions.

 

the 7.8 pH is that just standing there? mixed water's pH could depress over time as exposure to ambient CO2 lowers it. if it's in a sealed/capped container it should be minimal or no depression.

 

going way back to the beginning of the thread, it could be the high organics (bio-load) originally bandied about. again, your readings are unusual. you might want to invest in new test kits to double-check, they do go bad over time.

 

try the 2-part ca/alk solutions. they're very effective and easy. i only use buffer-onlys when setting up tanks. afterwards i rely completely on the two-part solutions (b-ionic). also, the kh (i.e. tap) is muddling the situation imo. it's not letting you effectively buffer the system (i feel that baking soda recommendation coming back). : good luck!

[SplendidWarrior]

OK. I've just tested everything just now and here are the results:

 

Mg: 1080ppm (900ppm)

Ca: 240ppm (200ppm)

NH4: 0ppm (0ppm)

NO2: 0.2ppm (0.3ppm)

NO3: 0ppm (3ppm)

SG: 1.022 (1.023)

CH: 18dkH (17dkH)

pH: 7.91 (7.92)

 

I've also just tested the tap water I use. Its got pH of 7.2 and 0dkH (no change in water after adding reagent).

 

Almost all marine hobbyist uses tap water here. I've checked with some very experience people here including some pros and most use tap water directly or DI water for the most fastidious one. All said RO is not necessary. I will invest in one for my 180 gallon tank though. Just didn't want to spend too much money on my nano. : )

 

All my test kits are from German manufacturer Sera except the Ca. kit which is made by Hagen. I've tried getting brands like Salifert and Seachem but they are mostly not available here. Sera its the best I could get here. Otherwise I'd have to use some dodgy Taiwanese or Chinese made ones. All my test kits are newlu manufactured so I guess they should be accurate.

 

Question: Do you think I should go back to using Seachem's 8.3 Marine Buffer to raise the pH of my tank? I'm just afraid that the CH is gonna rocket again. What's your opinion?

[tinyreef]

i'm surprised of the tap reading but based upon what you said about the other aquarists i guess you're blessed with good water.

 

what's in the seachem buffer ingredient-wise? i never used their buffer before. you can try it as the pH is too low imo. that's why i was suggesting a bicarbonate only buffer.

[SplendidWarrior]

I guess I'll wait till I get the Mg/Ca level right or if the pH continues to go down before using the pH buffer. Thanks for the help Tiny. : )

 

ps. What's the brand of the 2-part buffer you recommended earlier?

[Satchmo]

Splendid, your pH should definitely not be that low right after mixing. Are you aerating your source water before adding salt? If not, that may be the root of it. Source water with a high level of dissolved CO2 contains acids that will exhaust a lot of the buffers present in the salt. You should try vigorous aeration of the water before mixing to gas-off some of that CO2. Freshly mixed seawater should have a pH of at least 8.2, IMO.

 

The 2 part additive Tiny mentioned is called B-Ionic made by a company called ESV. It's a small company in New York and some people have trouble finding it even in the States, so I don't know if you'll see it in Singapore. Several online places carry it, if you can get them to deliver to you.

[SplendidWarrior]

Yes, I aerate the water with an air pump and a small internal filter with no medium acting as a power head. The pH when freshly mixed is 8.2 but it'll fall to 7.8 - 7.9 within a day or 2.

 

I doubt I'll be able to see B-Ionic here. Are there any other similar substitute by more comon manufacturers such as Seachem, 2 Little Fishies etc?