SplendidWarrior Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 X) I've been unable to lower the carbanate hardness of my 4 gallon tank after overdosing on Dupla kH buffer. It went up from 18 dkH to 20 dkH and its been staying this level even after a 20% water change (no kH buffer added) and 2 fresh water top offs. Well the high kH level cause harm? I've also been unsuccessful in raising the pH above 8.05. Any help on these matters would be great. Here are the latest water parameters tested just now. pH: 8.04 Carbonate hardness: 20 dkH Salinity: 1.020 (dropped from 1.023 in 2 days to help rid of Ich) Ammonia/Ammonium: 0mg/l Nitrite: 0.3mg/l (added livestock) Nitrate: 0mg/l Link to comment
freakaccident Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 I have the same problem and it doesnt seem to cause any problems. I don't know about the long term. You can use a lot of ph additives out there to boost the ph but some/most will boost your alkalinity/carbonate hardness too. I used a product called Perfect PH 8.2 and my PH has stayed stable since. I think the B-ionic helps keep the ph stable too. Link to comment
SplendidWarrior Posted February 18, 2003 Author Share Posted February 18, 2003 I have been using Seachem's pH 8.3 Marine Buffer but have since stopped using it cos I 'm afraid it'll increase the dkH further. Thanks for sharing your experience freakaccident. Anybody out there have any answers? Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 derrrrrrr..... d00der yer drooling on the rug. Do another W/C 20 DKH is NOT good. Shoot for around 10 dkh. 1.020 is low get it back up to 1.023 if you have corals. PS: did you check calcium? just curious Link to comment
freakaccident Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 I just found a great article on this. My alk is high and calc is low. Adding both parts of the b-ionic daily doesnt help to lower the alk since the #1 bottle raises the alk. I am going to stop using the #1 part until the alk comes down to a normal level and the calc goes up some. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov...ov2002/chem.htm Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 /me thinks this just became an advanced forum topic. good article, but nothing you havent be told here by...... OMG ! ME ! wow Holy SHEIZACH !!!!!!! ESPI (and a few others) ARE ABSOF'NGEEKALOUTELY RIGHT ON !...pffff who knew ??? daidie daidei daieidie diaideideiaidae........ oh and PS: don't use baking soda as a source of sodiumbicarbonate.... its one of the cardinal reefing sins. and uh... since we are on this article subject.... if a Ca REACTOR DOESNT..... help ballance a system, and you add one..... how come the system becomes stable? If you shift fro the troubled zones in to the target by adding a supplement, THEN add a Ca reactor....... derrrrrr.... wouldn't that act as a "Placeholder" by chance? And what IF NOT according to Randy is to prevent the system from slipping BACK into a troubled zone? More discussion needed Plz/Ty.... derrrrrrrrr...... Randy is drooling on the rug on that one..... Link to comment
jojopus Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 I have nothing relevant to add to this post...however, those are by no means 'nano' boobs in that signature Dave...... sorry.... couldnt help myself. :) :) :) Link to comment
reefphreak Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 He is right... There is nothing nano about those.. Link to comment
kimura Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Dave is right, do another W/C and if you do have corals you have to raise up the S.G. After that I'd back off and wait. Link to comment
tinyreef Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 splendid, i'm curious about that 'low' pH tho. you have high levels of organics in your water? does it smell or look slightly colored? do you have stony corals? if not you may also want to back off on the calcium additives too. let the tank reach equilibrium on its own. (a couple of wc's won't hurt either) more CaCl may depress the pH more. CaOH (kalk) may be a better short-term solution but care must be exercised when using kalk. after stabilizing you can go back to the b-ionic, a very good product imo. hth Link to comment
Satchmo Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 I read through this thread thinking the same thing. How did his alkalinity get that high without raising the pH? Tiny, you seem to be saying that nutrient-rich water can allow this? Interested in hearing more.... Link to comment
tinyreef Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 not so much allow the situation but to generate acids (from decomposition) to constantly depress the pH. it could also be the CaCl becoming HCl and CaCO3 driving the pH down. the abundant alk is obviously from the od of buffer but i was curious why the pH stayed down too. switching to kalk should give the pH a boost (careful) and at the same time limit the transitory HCl acid from forming as much. just thinking out loud, could be a slice of lemon in his tank for all i know. X) a corona w/lime Link to comment
Satchmo Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 That's where I'm confused. I know nitrification produces acids, which lower pH. But if that were the case, with alkalinity levels that high, wouldn't the pH be supported until the carbonate is depleted? In other words (by my often-skewed logic), I would have expected to see pH remaining relatively stable, while his high KH level drops. According to the original poster, he's seeing just the opposite. Odd. Link to comment
tinyreef Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 sorry, just got back from michigan. tropicorium only opens to the public on weekends. bastages! satch, the thing is that the hardness reading may only really be 'hardness' and not alk. (i.e. ca and mg) we usually equate the two and usually they're close but maybe dupla favors the Ca/Mg vs. Na/K side. splendid, i still think kalk is the simplest way of addressing that or NaHCO3, aka baking soda (dave's gonna flame me ), to ensure there's no addt'l 'hardness' being added (20 dkh is a bit high ). just use 'mono-chemical' stuff, if that makes any sense. the buffers and stuff the various aquarium companies sell are usually a mixture ime but a couple suspiciously look like arm&hammer to me : so i would avoid them. just make sure you know what's going into your system. Link to comment
Satchmo Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Originally posted by tinyreef the thing is that the hardness reading may only really be 'hardness' and not alk. (i.e. ca and mg) we usually equate the two and usually they're close but maybe dupla favors the Ca/Mg vs. Na/K side. Ya lost me. Are you talking general hardness or alkalinity? Business trip? I lived in E. Lansing for 6 months.... wasn't that a great story? Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 ok, GH, ALK, GKH and KH are 2 diff things, and 2 different test kit reagents. we need clarification as to EXACTLY what test kit was used before we can really put the kabosh on this. Link to comment
SplendidWarrior Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 Wrote to Albert Thiel about the low pH and high dkH problem. He replied that my magnesium level is probably too low; it should be present in the tank with calcium at ratio of 4:1 and I should achieve a pH, dkH balance if I get the magnesium level up. Any comments? Link to comment
SplendidWarrior Posted February 25, 2003 Author Share Posted February 25, 2003 Added 6ml (10mg/l) of Sera Magnesium Plus (liquid) into the tank this afternoon and the carbonate hardness fell by 3dkH with no change in pH. Will do so again tomorrow and post the results. Stay tuned. Link to comment
freakaccident Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 My alk came down from dosing just the calcium part of the B-ionic as I stated I would do a few days ago. My alk is right at 10.2. Calcium is at 350. I am still having problems getting the calcium up. I have gone from 5ml to 10ml of the calcium part now. So now I am dosing 5ml alk and 10ml calc each day. The alk appears to be staying in check and PH remains at 8.3. Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 freek, look to add another supplemental Ca... or else you will quickly depelete your part -2 supply. Seachem liquid glutinate calcium is ok, or use some pickeling lime/kalkwasser. Link to comment
freakaccident Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I was thinking about getting this: http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/m...ry_Code=Seachem Is it the same as that glutinate calcium? Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 yeah, but buy the bigger bottle. if need be, put some in another container, and sell to buddies localy if ya have some to cut down on the cost. if ya know yergoing to use something, buy lots of it... LOLz Link to comment
Satchmo Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Originally posted by SplendidWarrior Wrote to Albert Thiel about the low pH and high dkH problem. He replied that my magnesium level is probably too low; it should be present in the tank with calcium at ratio of 4:1 and I should achieve a pH, dkH balance if I get the magnesium level up. Any comments? No, I have no comments, just questions... good thread. I understand that balanced Mg is needed to keep Ca up. And it makes sense that by bringing Mg into check, you would be able to get your Ca levels higher, thereby "displacing" some of that carbonate. What I still can't figure out is what any of this has to do with pH. Did he mention what is going on chemically that can permit an environment of high alk and depressed pH? Regardless of where Ca or Mg levels are, wouldn't high carbonate levels buffer pH, plain and simple? Still confused... Link to comment
freakaccident Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I bought Tropic Marin Bio-calcium yesterday. I tested when I got home and Ca was at 365. I used a little of the Bio-calcium and tested two hours later. The Ca was up to about 410 which is good. Everything else seems good too. I will go ahead with 5ml each of the two parts of B-ionic and see what the Ca consumption is before I begin adding the Bio-calcium daily. Link to comment
SplendidWarrior Posted February 28, 2003 Author Share Posted February 28, 2003 Albert Thiel hasn't given me a reply on how Mg and Ca can affect pH....stay tuned. Have a few questions myself though. Anyone care to comment on the following?: 1. Will water change deplete Mg. and Ca. in a 4 gallon tank? I experience a drop of 20mg/l and 120mg/l respectively after a 30% water change on my 4 gallon. 2. If the above answer is yes, will that mean it will be very hard for me to bring the Mg. and Ca. level to the optimum level (900ppm and 200ppm) because of regular water changes due to my tank size? 3. If above 2 are yes, can I increase the dosage on both Mg. and Ca. supplement from the recommended dosage of 10mg/l per day and maximum of 10mg/l twice a week to overcome depletion from water change? I use Sera Magnesium Plus and Seachem Reef Calcium (both liquids). 4. If I manage to bring both Mg. and Ca. to the optimum level, will they stabilize even through 15% weekly water change? 5. Does dosing Iodide has depletion effect on Mg. and Ca.? (Hope this doesn't sound stupid) Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.