Biowheels, bioballs, etc....

[Kapelakin]

I still don't buy it.  Rock has lots of zones of varying water flow, as would a sand bed.  So the nitrates are in the water, but not necessarily being moved away from the rock as as quick a rate as water moving over the bioballs/biowheel.  There is going to be some relatively stagnant water and slow moving water in and around the reef structure. Therefore water in or near the surface of the rock has a much better chance of transporting nitrates to surfaces inhabited by denitrifiers.

 

My explanation still makes sense to me (of course it does), but since we're going around in circles, it might not hurt to initiate this discussion on another board (RC, Aquaria Central, etc).  I might also email my environmental microbiology prof and see what he thinks.  There's a big reef right outside his office, so he'll at least get an idea of what I'm talking about.

[Toyfreek]

OK,

Here's what Delbeek/Sprung Have to say on the matter:

"When an aquarium has a wet/dry filter and surface skimming overflow, the combination makes for a very efficient nitrate "factory". Surface skimmed water containes attached surface active amino acids and proteins, rich in nitrogen. These are passed over the filter media constantly, a fact that rapidly encourages the growth of heterotrophic bacteria there that convert the proteins and amino acids into amonia. nitrification, enhanced by the high saturation of oxygen within the "dry" portion of the filter, quickely converts amonia to nitrate. Therefore, when a wet/dry filter is used, the production of nitrate is less limited by uptake of amonia by the plants and photosynthetic invertebrates in the aquarium, because most of the ammonia and potential sources of ammonia are converted to nitrate outside of the aquarium, in the filter."

Source: (THE REEF AQUARIUM VOL. 1 )                 C.Delbeek/J.Sprung Page 134 Chapter 2

 

So now it sounds like it is the surface skimmer's fault....Huh never would have thought that.

Toy

[Asterix]

cjm033, Yhea thats about what this one cost, That ammount is with shipping included : )

 

.....Does anyone have a comment on my proposed setup? I take it its a good idea then

[Kapelakin]

I posted this question on Aqua-Link last night.  I think the Hawkphysh's response is cogent and clear, and he makes a good point that hasn't been made here.  Essentially, if circulation was the only mechanism delivering nitrate to denitrifying bacteria, O2 would also being delivered, thus rendering the whole process moot, as the bacteria would be switching over to aerobic metabolism, which is more efficient.

 

Here is the thread.

[Toyfreek]

Well,

I dunno There seems to be many reasonable explainations now which one do we believe? I'm alot more confused then before that's for sure.

End point is that most everyone Thinks that they are indeed nitrate producers in a captive reef enviroment. As for they why's Now I'm not sure.

Toy

[thegr8tdane]

so we should defiantley take em out, right?

[quiksilver5768]

You dont HAVE to take them out. If your tank can cope with the nitrates then ok. I run my 10 gal through bio-balls and floss in my 5 gal sump but the water than runs through my macro algae filled refugium where those excess nitrates are removed (nitrates are always at 0). If your levels are stable, then its ok to have them. Until you see them starting to bring up your nitrates and such...leave them in. If they never do bring up your trates, then well keep them in.

[Nemo]

thegr8tdane  "can I take them out... so I should take them out...  so defiantly take them out?"   just want to get to the business end don't you  hahaha. What size is your tank and how much lr do you have? What other filtration do you have if any?  Are you dripping water through the balls or are they submerged?  If you have a good amount of live rock, then I say take them out slowly, like 10 percent a week. Try very hard to not shift the remaining balls, floss, etc. if you are dripping water through it.  This is not critical if they are submerged.  Oh, but I too would have no problem leaving them in if your levels are good.  I have a sump modeled after the ecosystem's hang on sump and the last chamber has about 10 submerged bioballs, though I don't think they are really needed except to keep the caulerpa out of the return tube.

 

(Edited by Nemo at 6:13 pm on May 9, 2002)

[ALLSTARFISH]

It would not seem to matter how any so called 'nitrate factory' breaks down biomass.  A biowheel, bioball, live rock or any other kind of filter will eventually break down the bioload into nitrate it is just a matter of how fast.  More filtration is always better as nitrate can be broken down also, it just takes a considerable amount of time.  The amount of nitrate is in direct proportion to the bioload in the first place just broken down.

 

Even if you had such an extreme filtration system to break down all forms of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.  Water changes are still very important to replace major and minor trace elements and to remove phosphates.

[pulpsmack]

EVERYTHING MANUFACTURED THAT ISN'T LIGHTING, HEATING OR A POWERHEAD IS OPTIONAL. Skimmers, sumps, UV Sterilizers, ozonators, calcium reactors, planktonic drip devices, refugiums, egg crate, overflows, bio-wheels, bio-balls, bio-domes, bio-hazards -- Whatever IS ALL A BUNCH OF UNNESSARRY CRAP!!! Ok, maybe you want a refugium, great. Pehaps a reactor, fine. What everybody needs to do is quit going crazy over all this crap.

 

RECIPE FOR NANO:

Tank, Lights, Powerhead(s), Thermometer, Substrate, Live rock, Livestock, & Reasearch --- This is all you need folks!

 

Maybe one or two of the items can be an add-on some time down the road but too many people are way too obsessed over this silliness. Maybe if some of these people purchased 1.5 - 2 pounds of live rock per gallon and kept it simple they wouldn't need to be so worried about all this junk. Half the people who claim that they can't afford to put more than .5-1 pound per gallon are the same yahoos that buy all this equipment.

 

CAN YOU PUT IT IN YOUR TANK?

Sure, waste your money -- or invest it, whatever you want to call it.

 

DO YOU NEED IT?

NO!!!

 

DO YOU NEED IT?

NO!!!

 

DO YOU NEED IT?

NO!!!

 

IS ANY OF THIS SINKING IN?

???

[pulpsmack]

Korbin, I know you posted this just to get some info, but on this thread, this forum, this hobby, some seem to overcomplicate things, and I suppose after hearing "do I need a skimmer" & others for the 110th time (when there are articles on this and other sites) I get a little crazy.

[printerdown01]

You have a lot of exceptions to your rule, pulp... Kinda looks like you have a rule, but make an exception for everything you own... I would include bio-balls, bio-wheels, plankton feedings (which are natural by the way), sumps (which are great for pump and heating device placement), refugiums (great bio-logical filtration as well as a great place to culture "food"), and protien skimmers to your exception list as well . I believe that there is a time and place for a lot of this equipment... If you don't need it for your particular tank, then so be it... But if someone has a 20-25 and wants to use a skimmer to get rid of the waste thier LR is producing, GO FOR IT! -just my opinion... I would also like to take the time to point out that the reason bio-wheels/balls take so much flack is because they can fix nitrogen from NH3 so quickly... IMO this is a positive, it will clear out a lot of your NH3 from the tank (toxic) and produce something that is a viable food source for algae (and lets not forget that algae includes zooxanthelle, macro, and coralline, which reefer want to grow). Unfortunatly, we as reefers do not have the entire ocean at our fingertips, thus we need quick ways to synthesize things... If we did have the full resources of the ocean, there would never be any need to supply our tanks with calcium (calcium reactors and additives), built concentrated food supply chambers like refugiums, and a lot of other stuff that you mentioned as "useless crap." Now I am not the type to go out and buy a bunch of gadgets to have the latest in reefing supplies. In fact for test kits I own a specific gravity meter, a pH kit, and a thermometer... The rest of it I can monitor from watching my inhabatents (I have yet to find a way to tell whether my pH is up or down, I can only tell when it isn't right). Right now as it stands, pulp, you are right you can sustain a system on just lights, heater, LR, LS, and a powerhead with frequent water changes. However, as people begin to master the art of nano-keeping we will probably use water changes less and less frequently, as we will be better able to maintain the systems. These new breeds of tanks will probably incorporate a LOT of the stuff you call "useless crap." For those of us who have been around the block remember when all that was needed was an undergravel filter, an NO bulb, and a heater.... everything else was considered "crap." -That was until people started actually using this "crap." In fact on my 55 gallon I had gone as long as 6 months w/o preforming a water change w/o any negative side effects! I suspect that one day nanos will to be able to go "long" periods of time w/o water changes as we get better at maintaining the water... -so is the "crap" nessicary, probably not... but will it help, yes... and only time will tell by how much...

[pulpsmack]

Accurately put Printerdown. These things are improvements NOT necessities. BTW I was only making examples, not exceptions. I supposer my problem is that too many people rely on the Hi-tech garbage while they skimp on the basic essentials. Today the wheel has come full circle & I think you ommited a chapter. We went from basic but inadequate UG filtration, to Hi-tech wet/dry filtration. Is that the state of the art today? Hardly. Though usable, it's quite outdated in my own opinion. What is the most revolutionary addition to the sucessful aquarium? A wet/dry with overflow and accompanying UV sterilizer? Hell NO! It's live rock. The basic and natural is far more superior to the bells and whistles we have clumsily churned out. Gone is the bleached coral and UG filter of the seventies. Well gone too is the wet/dry's heyday of the eighties. Today 2 pounds of live rock per gallon a good live sand bed and perhaps a top notch skimmer is as good as anything out there. Time and time again we are humbled by our technological inadequacies before the might of nature. So by the time this silliness becomes essential some other gadget will show up and replace it, so I say keep it as basic as possible. In closing, If you want the toys then go for them, but you don't NEED them and you should have the basic essentials before worrying about these "accessories".

 

(Edited by pulpsmack at 11:24 pm on May 11, 2002)

[Fant]

I didnt take the time to read the entire 3 pages of posts. But i would like to say why I dont use bioballs/wheels/fluidized bed filters etc. All of those things work great for what they are designed for. And that is the reduction of ammonia into nitrites and nitrites into nitrates. Thats where it stops. The problem with these types of filtration is that it creates highly aerobic conditions without the needed anaerobic conditions for biological nitrate reduction. They instead just spew the nitrates throughout the water column where it is more readily assimilated by nuisance algae. Thats where the live sand comes in, this stuff is so awesome because it provides aerobic conditions in close proximity to anaerobic and that is why they function so well for helping establish systems with no-low nitrates. Using wet/drys biowheels etc, your just making it more difficult for the nitrates to be broken down naturally because they have a tendancy to be utilized by algae first.

[thegr8tdane]

You are right Pulp we should be talking about the Middle East crisis that would be more appropiate in this thread, this forum, this hobby...

Should we be discussing the weather?

No!!!

Should we be discussing the newest cars for 2003?

No!!!

Is this called the Nano Reef message board?

Yes!!!

Is any of this sinking in?

I'm sorry but after reading all 110 of your ####y posts drives me a little bit crazy.

And I thought the theories on both sides where presented very well and I cannot find this level of enthusiasm, depth, and intelligence about our hobby anywhere else on the net. Why don't you take your rays of sunshine and shine em somewhere else?

[thegr8tdane]

I would like to report my own observations on my effectiness of my set up, for those that might be interested... I'm not saying that I everyone should do what I have done, so please take the following as just a statement...

 

We had this argument about the effectiveness of bio wheels, balls, media, etc. Well I haven't changed my water for 2 weeks and I have .10 nitrates that's all. So I don't know about the whole nitrate factory thing, but I do have some other varibles to consider...I have a 10 gallon with a 3-4 inch DSB and 1 green bamboo macro algae, 1 duetto sub. filter with carbon removed bio media left in, 3 fish, about 7lbs of live rock, a power sweep, and a glass cover between the water surface and the lights. (there is a 2" gap tho.)

Why this works, I honestly do not know. My guess would be that the sooner the nitrates are produced the sooner they get out.

Anyhow, I found this interesting and thought some others might as well.

[Toyfreek]

.10 nitrates is nothing to be excited about IMO.

Not trying to slam you or nothing but zero's are what we are striving for here.

Toy

[thegr8tdane]

that's cool. 0 huh? do you have 0 after 2 weeks? Just curious.

[Toyfreek]

I Never go two weeks but I would try it for you if you would like. I'll post results, I'm undetectable now with my Hagen piece of poop. I'll get it tested at LFS tomorrow as well. I would hazard to guess though that I'll still be undetedtable in two weeks.

We will see,

Toy

Ps. Did my regular sunday water change.

 

(Edited by Toyfreek at 2:58 am on May 21, 2002)

[Toyfreek]

Tested the water at my LFS Undetectable nitrates.

using Fastest and Doc wellfish kits.

Toy

[nanonut]

Why are bio wheels called nitrate factories? Because, even though you say there is only a certain amount of X, Ammonia, and Y, Nitrites, and Z, Nitrates, and Z cannot be more than what you started with X. Ammonia, is always being produced from waste and die off, Aerobic bacteria takes care of the ammonia and nitrites but as stated in another thread, it takes anaerobic bacteria located deep in the sand bed to dispose of Nitrates. Since the bio wheel houses only Aerobic bacteria, it has no way of breaking down Nitrates. So it never does, and they continue to build up. Then again, I just started this stuff 3 weeks ago, I'm just going by what you guys said, it's logical, but probably incorrect. I can't wait to see the reply to this one!