Biowheels, bioballs, etc....

[Korbin]

I have read numerous times that a biowheel in a SW aquarium is just a "nitrate factory".  From what I understand, the biowheel/bioballs/whatever, serve as a medium for microbial growth.  These microbes turn the nitrogen in ammonia into nitrates.  Because an aquarium running a biowheel will have more nitrogen fixing bacteria, it will have a higher number of nitrates in the water, right?  So this must mean that your ammonia levels are lower, right?  Why is that bad?  

 

You can't make something out of nothing.  Biowheels are not "factories" of nitrogen.  The nitrogen has to come from somewhere.  If it is converted from the ammonia in your tank, wouldnt a higher nitrate reading be good?

[byrself]

it's the build up of nitrates that are so bad, and in a reef tank environment you don't want a buildup of trates because it will be toxic to your animals in high concentrations.  the reason they become "factories" is because many people neglect to replace the bio wheels with new ones(they do have to be cleaned).  with bioballs, it's almost impossible to clean them, which makes it worse.  the bacteria itself is good, but the aquiring detritus and waste in the filters are not.  in a fish only or any high bioload system, they are great because they convert the highly toxic ammonia and nitrite very well, and the nitrates are reduced with regular water changes.   in reef tanks, the tides are turning more toward not doing regular water changes because it can be unecessary in a self sustaining reef environment, provided you don't have unnecessarily high bioloads.  many people go years without water changes in large systems with few fish, simply cause they aren't needed.  it's all a matter of personal taste and individual system circumstances that determine the good or bad of any filtration method.  if you are planning to do regular water changes and keep your biowheels fairly cleaned, then there isn't a prob with using these methods.  i think that's where the confusion lies in the research done on this.  it all depends on your own personal needs and what you plan to do with your tank.  my advice is just to have a nitrate test and keep an eye on it.  if it gets high, do a water change and/or change filters.  if it never gets high, and you have a low bioload, you shouldn't have any probs.  just what i have found doing my own personal research of the subject. =)

[Toyfreek]

Hi Korbin,

I Kinda agree with The above assesment however he might be missing some stuff.

first off they aren't nitrate factories you are right, you cant produce more nitrate than the fuel allows in a system. There is another side that has not been addressed though. In a Reef system your live rock/sand should be your main filtration, Rock and sand aren't as efficient as say a biowheel. therefore it directly competes with your rock for a place for your bacteria to live, since it is more efficient it will starve out your rocks bio area and effectively cause nitrates from your rock not functioning properly, the rock becomes the nitrate factory not the bio-wheel. Now If you clean or replace your bio-wheel you have wiped out the major bacteria base in your tank and your rock will re-colonize before the new bio-wheel, then your bio-wheel will kick in and your rock's bacteria will die off and so on and so on. you will be stuck in a never ending cycle thus High nitrates and Amonia till equillibriem is reached....could be never.

I think this is why they are called nitrate factories.

HTH,

Toy

 

(Edited by Toyfreek at 4:32 am on May 8, 2002)

[JGoslee]

I use the filter sleeves without carbon in my filter.Does this mean my filter sleeve competes with my rock?

[Toyfreek]

if they are thick and spongelike prolly yes, they should be cleaned at least weekly with HOT tap water to kill off any emerging colonies.

HTH,

Toy

 

(Edited by Toyfreek at 6:10 am on May 8, 2002)

[JGoslee]

Would it be better to just remove them?

[Toyfreek]

I use the whisper hang on back on my nano with the carbon removed as well. when I do my weekly water change i rinse the pad in Hot water. I need it to remove sand dust that my pistol shrimp kicks up all the time.

If you dont have alot of particulate matter in your water column You prolly dont need it, maybe just once in a while to run carbon or to filter out some free floating detritous.

HTH,

Toy

[Christopher Marks]

From what I understand, the reason they are called nitrate factories is because of how fast the bacteria take ammonia through the nitrogen cycle.  Basically, these filters are so efficient that they make it happen faster than it would in nature.  So, while in nature it may take ammonia, for example, 1 day to turn into nitrites and another day to become nitrates, these wet/dry's etc. do it all in 12 hours. (Those are just example figures to illistrate the point, I have no idea how long it actually takes, just that one is faster)

 

Since man made filter areas are essentially faster, this allows nitrates to build up much faster, even if you had done a recent water change.

[Nemo]

Maybe a different angle….High bioloads are nitrate factories and Bio-balls and wheels are very efficient.  Because of their high flow rates and available oxygen, the aerobic bacteria is able to deal with the waste faster. Aerobic bacteria is what converts ammonia and  also grows on live rock, tank walls, etc..  It works slower submersed in the tank where there is less oxygen available and is dependent on what is dissolved in the water.  Now, bio balls work much faster than the anaerobic bacteria.  Anaerobic bacteria is the type found in deep sand beds and deep inside liverock in low to zero oxygen areas and change nitrate to nitrogen gas which is released out of the tank.  Since they don’t work as fast as the bioball environment, your nitrates build up in the system.  The aerobic bacteria in the live rock works at a more natural (slower) pace than that of the bioballs, one that the anaerobic bacteria in a deep sand bed or such can keep up with (or at the pace your caulerpa or other macro algae can consume the nitrate also, another way to finish off the cycle).  This only works if your waste production is at a slower, lower bioload, which has been the trend for many years now.  

(Edited by Nemo at 8:15 am on May 8, 2002)

 

 

(Edited by Nemo at 8:25 am on May 8, 2002)

[Asterix]

OK, This seems like a good time to ask then...I am planning a octopus tank!!!....Please excuse the dollar signs! This was first written up as kind of a shopping list so I could see what needed to be purchased and what I already had... If I could have some opinions on this setup and if Bio balls would be benificial to this type of setup.....I would appreciate it!

 

 

 

 

Setup

 

$30.00 29 Gal Standard

$0.00 Standard Flourescent tube 30 inch

$0.00 1.5 inch Southdown bed

$30.00 1.5 inch Fiji Livesand bed

$20.00 30 Lbs Lace rock

$25.00 5 Lbs Fiji rubble to seed lace and sand

$0.00 DIY 10 Gal sump 500GPH, With DIY Spray bar return

$0.00 DIY FilterCarbon

$0.00 DIY Protein Skimmer

$0.00 Heater 150 Watt

 

 

 

Live Stock

 

$54.00 1 O. Bimaculatus

$5.00 5 Turbo snails

 

 

Water Paremeters

 

Water Temp 79F.

Salinity 1.023 sg

pH 7.9-8.2

[HuBu]

i think your LFS sells flosh pads for $1. i know mine does, and this lasts me two times do the the size of my filter.

[sjpresley]

I have done much thinking about this bio-ball-nitrate factory thing and have asked a number of questions about it.  Even in most texts, when addressed it is simply stated that they are nitrate factory and so are bad, don't use them.

 

Here is my problem.  Say X amount of ammonia will make Y amount of nitrite and Z amount of nitrate.  So starting with X in 2 systems, one with and one without bio-balls you will wind up with Z.   Fine, now why this idea (myth?) that they are nitrate factories?  Bacteria in any medium cannot make more than Z because that is all of the resources that exist.

 

Rate seems irrelevant because, and this is a fact, the bacteria are so effecient at metabolizing (= eating/using) these resources that we usually cannot detect any ammonia in a tank though it is constantly being created.  We also cannot detect any nitrates, though it is constantly being created.  They are metabolized so fast, even without bio-balls, that unless you have something huge die in your system you probably won't even notice the spike unless you test within a few hour time period.

 

Once I thought that maybe the balls trap detritus that would be eaten in the system but instead slowly rots thereby creating more natural resources for nitrate production that perhaps would have been eaten by a detritivore and metabolized a little cleaner (or somehow with less nitrogenous waste).  But bio-wheels trap (essentially) no detritus but are implicated causing a similar phenomenon.

 

I don't know what the answer is, or if this is just another aquarists tale (close relative of the wives tale, e.g., my gold fish ate itself to death) caused by a lack of understanding.  But I do know that no one (here, on other on-line resources, or in texts) has presented me with an explanation that I find even remotely satisfying.

 

As a side note, when nitogenous products (e.g., food) are introduced into an aquarium, it makes little difference if they are eaten or not.  If eaten they will be metabolized and nitrogenous waste (ammonia) produced, if they are not eaten, they will decay (= be eaten by something else, probably bacteria) and nitrogenous waste produced.  How much waste?  By all accounts in research, the exact SAME amount of waste.

 

So I still don't know where the bio-ball nitrate factory comes from.  I suppose it is worth mentioning that I am a biologist and thus have some understandin of nutrient cycling.  If anyone can find an answer to this tenacious chimera (= unsolvable puzzle), please pass it on to me.

 

Thanks for listening,

[Toyfreek]

Nemo,

Thanks for clearing that up for me I thought I might have been off there, I had heard your explaination once before and was trying to remember while typing and I guess I just kinda wondered off in my own little world there for a while:)

Thnx,

Toy

[thegr8tdane]

So if we have them in should we take em out?

 

How should we take em out?

 

And on a side note, is it considered bad to have glass between your water surface and your lights? I thought it kept down evaporation, but I've also heard that it harms the surface gas exchange...?

 

I know I'm not the only one that would like  these questions answered cause I modeled my tank after a few members that are set up like the tank described above.

 

Thanks

[sjpresley]

Many people will say, "Yes, take them out."  That's your call, do your nitrates seem high or to accumulate quickly?  If you have plenty of LR you don't need them anyway.

 

If you remove them you may not want to do it all at once as they may harbor a greate percentage of the nitrifying bacteria in your system.  Maybe just take out a few every few days.

 

I don't know what you mean by how to take them out.   Turn of whatever they are in and open that badboy up and take 'em out.  

 

About the glass, you want the glass unless you have a large system and the lights are far from the water and you have nothing that might jump/climb out.  Oxygenation shouldn't be a problem if you have a skimmer, a HOB power filter, or any kind of sump, wet/dry, overflow etc.

[thegr8tdane]

I can't decide I'm on the fence with this one. Can I get some sort of vote as to who beleives what?

I'd be interested to see...

[Korbin]

Well, I for one only have LR, and my nitrates are always at 0.  I figure, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[thegr8tdane]

how often do you change your water? If its 0 could you not change it for like a month?

[Nemo]

Toyfreek,  I have noticed something like that happen in a different case.  I added well cured live rock to a new tank, I then added some Cycle, the bacteria in a bottle.  In a few days there was a med. ammonia spike.  Now, I have since put “fresher” rock than that in another tank and I did not measure any ammonia. I am wondering if the bacteria I added to the first tank "overpopulated" the system for the amount of waste present leading to a massive die off due to starvation and resulting in too little bacteria to deal with the present waste load.

 

sjpresley  I think you are on to something.  If no ammonia can be measured, then both systems are processing it quickly for the given bioload.  Maybe this "factory" myth is a result of the bioball filtration being able to support a higher bioload, therefore ending with a higher nitrate level that anaerobic bacteria could never be expected to keep up with.  What do you think?

[cjm033]

you said your gonna pay $54 for the octapus right i say the same one on saltwaterfish.com for $20 its just a suggestion good luck ,Chris:)

[sjpresley]

Hmmmmmm.....could be....don't know.  I have never actually even touched a bio-ball (though I have seen them in person), so I have no experience with their effect on a system.

 

All I know is that nitrogen has to go into the system for nitrate to be produced, and though bio-balls may be provide surface area for bacterial attachment, I am pretty sure that bio-balls are neither made of nitrogen, nor contain very small aliens that produce nitates in an effort to sabatage our aquaria in an effort to take over the Earth.

 

The fact remains that nitrogen in must equal nitrogen out.  Nitrate is an end product unless anaerobic bacteria convert it back to nitrogen gas which dissipates from the system.

 

Do bio-balls and such things inhibit anaerobes, thereby keeping ALL nitrogen in the system at the nitrate stage and not allowing its' conversion to N2?

 

Don't know.

[Kapelakin]

That's what I cited in another thread, which I looked for, but couldn't find.

 

To me, it makes sense that the highly oxygenated, high-flow filter area such as bioballs in a sump, or a biowheel, would be a more efficient habitation place for nitrifying bacteria.  Thus, fewer nitrifying bacteria in your SB and on your LR.  The SB and LR are where your denitrifying bacteria are located, but with the biowheel, little nitrate is being manufactured in a proximal location (the surface of the SB and LR).  Therefore, less direct feed of nitrate to the denitrifyers, more free nitrate in your tank.

 

it's not a question of more NET nitrogen in the system, just a question of it being locked at the nitrate stage more or less, rather than being converted to NO2 and gassing off.

[sjpresley]

That still doesn't answer anything.  

 

After it is produced where is the nitrate?

 

In the water.

 

Where in the water?

 

Everywhere in the water.

 

Does where nitrite is turned into nitrate affect the nitrates availability to anaerobic denitrifying bacteria?

 

No.

 

Why?

 

Because the nitrate is in ALL the water, relatively evenly distributed (which is why most people only take one water sample, the chaotic movement of molecules dictates their distribution in solution will be statistically indistinguishable from randomness) and thus available to any anaerobes in the water be they in LR or LS.

 

I already pointed out the fact that it may be a question of where the nitrogen "gets stuck" in the system.  But WHERE the nitrate is produced will have NO effect on whether or not it stays nitrate or becomes N2.

 

Next?

[Toyfreek]

Wouldn't It make sence then that because the bio-wheel is producing such a good crop of aerobic bacteria that there isn't enough anaerobic to keep up with nitrates and turn them to nitrites  due to the rock's lesser ability to culture said bacteria? I'm Just thinking out loud there.

Toy

[sjpresley]

Keep up with what?  If nitrogen is entering the system at the same rate regardless of whether or not bioballs are present and in most every system the bacteria present keep up with ammonia production to the point that we cannot even detect 0.1 ppm where is the enhanced rate of processing?  The bacteria in the LR and LS process ammonia AS FAST AS IT IS PRODUCED, and it cannot be processed any faster no matter how many bio-balls you add.  There is no "keeping up".  By all accounts in every cycled aquarium that is "fed" reasonably, there in zero ammonia or nitrite accumulation because it is produced ASAP.  Bio-balls aren't going to make that happen faster.  And as eveyone knows, nitrate is just sitting around in the water waiting (well it isn't really waiting, but you get the point) to be denitrified and turned into N2 so it can go on it's merry way.  So there is never a dearth of raw materials for anaerobic bacteria (detrifiers) to work on regarless.

 

The only plausible explanation has nothing to do with nitrate PRODUCTION but the lack of denitrificaiton back into N2.  So how would bio-balls (or anything else) inhibit the growth or effectivity of anaerobes doing their job?