Grafting as it pretains to coral propagation

[jeremai]

Huh, I'd never heard of Godwin or his crackpot theory before just now. Besides, I used Hitler as an allusion to the author's methods, not as a jab at anyone on here.

 

Wait, does this count as a resurrection?!?

[Six]

interesting he chose three of the "pop" corals to frag and glue together

 

Acanthastrea lordhowensis

Acanthastrea echinata

Echinophyllia species (he didnt even get an ID on this one!)

 

Hrm... then he says "just in time for christmas" haha.... oh wait.... is he in it for the money? the fame? the riches?

 

or the non glory that is science research? Hmmm.... i wonder....

[tinyreef]

"igor! get me another open brain from the tank, muahahahaha!"

 

"now with this new red-open-brain combined with this green-open-brain, the monster frag will be complete!"

 

"uh, master? seacrop didn't have anymore regular green-open-brains so she gave me one from the WYSIWYG pile. i think she called it the abby nermal frag."

 

"wait, you ideeeot! you gave me the wrong brain?! abby nermal? abby normal? ab-normal? omgwtfholeeesheeet! arrrghh!" <headsmack!>

[jeremai]

interesting he chose three of the "pop" corals to frag and glue together

 

Acanthastrea lordhowensis

Acanthastrea echinata

Echinophyllia species (he didnt even get an ID on this one!)

Wouldn't it make more sense to use SPS corals, like Acropora or Montipora spp? I mean, if you're going to do agricultural-type grafting, seems the base tissue on an SPS coral would be more likely to fuse than an actual LPS polyp. But then, I never really paid much attention to SPS corals, so I could be off base (hehe, get it? Base?).

[Caesar777]

Hmm...Mixing LPS. Why couldn't it work?

 

 

Ohh, okay, put them right ON each other = picx10. DERR?

[jeremai]

Ok, now I'm curious - how and why would LPS corals fuse together in the wild? Is it that whole starting from spawning and growing too close together thing? Or just randomness? It's natural on some level if it, uh, happens in nature.

[Caesar777]

They do it sometimes; see Faviids, for example. *quick Google search*

 

Okay, can't find a pic. But they do grow together, right next to each other. But they're COMPETING, regardless. I'd like to see one of these bi-colonies brought into captivity to see what happens long-term.

[jeremai]

So, it is just a randomness thing? Luck of the draw?

 

Another idea - do LPS reject zooxanthellae if lighting conditions change, etc? Could it be possible for half the LPS polyp to expell it's symbiotic algae, or for the algae to die (parasite, etc.) and for that part of the polyp to accept a different color strain? Maybe that's what's causing some of the 'natural grafts' the author was referring to.

[baj]

jeremai, that is a very interesting alternative. In fact, just by basing on color (which is again al about perception) I doubt we can tell apart coral species. I think its possible for LPS to expell zooxanthelae and adapt to a local change with a different zooxanthelae. Such local changes within the same colony may happen, it could be as simple as lighting (where corals are known to down regulate or adapt is a better word to lower lighting conditions fast) or "something else". But unless the different colored colonies are genetically tagged, just based on color alone I doubt we can make a definite distinction.

 

These statements delivered fresh from my ass.

[jeremai]

These statements delivered fresh from my ass.

As were most in this thread, so no worries.

 

Ugh, someone needs to get rolling on the whole definite species thing, figure all this out. It's making my head asplode

[tinyreef]

Ugh, someone needs to get rolling on the whole definite species thing, figure all this out. It's making my head asplode

exactly.

 

who's got an extra dna sequencer lying around? otf, you got one?

[Six]

Why not try it with Discosoma coralimorpharians? or yes, with those colored sticks? Then again the ID capabilities are far and away more difficult an acroporidae.

 

As for expelling xzooanthallae, yes, they do that. Mine at home did it, stress or different conditions, whichever, and reaained it once more. Other wild colonies of LPS do that in my prop tub when first introduced.

 

I think LPS and other "normal" grafts are actually formed in the larval settling period in the wild. can we do that in captivity? uh... sometimes, we can spawn coral. but have them settle out? grow? fuse? yeah... i dont think so.

 

BTW Knop's Clam book states something regarding xzooanthallae expullsion and regrowth....

[tinyreef]

just read a very interesting article from steven vollmer and stephen palumbi on "Hybridization and the Evolution of Reef Coral Diversity" (2002). i think they definitively prove (and others have strongly suggested) natural hybridization in corals.

 

the specific species they hightlight is acropora prolifera as a hybrid of a. cervicornis and a. palmata. they even went to the trouble of sequencing the nuclei and blah blah blah <snore> scientifical yada yada.

 

they also suggest that a. prolifera is a stunted hybrid in regards to sexual reproduction though. "However, the observation that A. prolifera hybrid populations are composed almost entirely of F1 individuals suggests that the reproductive potential of hybrid A. prolifera is severely limited or that hybrid breakdown occurs in later generations."

 

they point out that a. prolifera is still very capable of clonal reproduction though (as most corals are). they just suggest that sexual reproduction is limited genetically in the hybrid/prolifera.

 

eggheads are good for something afterall.

 

it ain't frankencorals though.

[jeremai]

So, which came first - the spawning, or the clone?

 

[tinyreef]

So, which came first - the spawning, or the clone?

i think they're suggesting that acropora prolifera doesn't exist "naturally" as a wholly separate species. kinda like mules aren't a species but only exist as a sterile hybrid of a horse and donkey.

 

so it (a. prolifera) only came about via hybridization. but i don't believe they're definitively saying it's a sterile species/hybrid. it could be that it can still reproduce sexually and not just asexually (cloning).

 

this was kinda what i was suggesting with the michalek-wagner research crossing the lobo with the sarco. maybe the "new" hybrid/species she made won't be very new or even unique. i'd like to know what species she was working with though. i found some suggestion/evidence that the lobophytum may have been lobophytum compactum.

[Six]

the hobby hard-on for Acropora alludes me.

 

The most boring animal on the planet? My guess wold be, yes, dear lord, yes. To me, keeping Acropora is not dissimilar to watching grass grow.

 

Who wants to maintain that type of calcium level anywho? Not I.

 

Anywhooo......

that's quite interesting regardless of the "A" word. Are you saying we have bastardized a species of coral already? Wow, go humanity!

[tinyreef]

the hobby hard-on for Acropora alludes me.

i love it when you talk sixy to me!

 

that's quite interesting regardless of the "A" word. Are you saying we have bastardized a species of coral already?

no, i believe they are saying that the acropora prolifera is a naturally occuring hybrid that we've just continually mis-Id as a separate species.

 

hence, my comment on the "lobo + sarco = existing species", that a lot of the coral "species" we see are actually hybrids. this actually explains a lot of the issues of ID's i've come across and originally motivated my personal sarcophyton ID quest. for example, a lot of the s. elegans i see are actually hybrids of s. elegans and others (e.g. s. pulchellum, s. latum, s. acutum, etc.) imho.

 

although i'm basing a lot on the obvious morphology, the basic characteristics leave some of these in-between ID's in limbo even from experts' point-of-view. verseveldt even leaves some out entirely due to unknown status (e.g. s. australenis, not sure of that spelling though).

 

some of the rarer sarcos i believe might just be hybrids in disguise. or maybe even vice-versa!

[MrAnderson]

As pointed out in the article, allo- and xenografts don't work. So I really don't see what problem there is in grafting two color morphs of the same species together, even if they were re-released into the wild. Corals are colonial organisms, and the gametes of each of the two color variety would never mix genetically, even in a fused colony.

 

I'm sure that there's more to be found on this but the autor of the Reefkeeping article's results mirror the below experiment, indicating that thereis a rudimentary self/nonself mechanism similar in function to vertebrate MHC.

 

Inanotherexperimentalstudyof

thebasisof self-/nonself-recognitioninthegorgonian Swiftia exserta, Salter-Cid

and Bigger (1991) observed that histo-compatibility reactions during tissue grafting met the minimal functional cri-teria of cytotoxicity,specificity,and

altered secondary response (memory)thatcharacterize an adaptive immune response.

Autografts (host tissue applied tothe same host) resulted in the fusion of the

tissues.However,allografts (differ-ent donor tissue from the same species)

resulted in rapid loss of tissue in theimmediate contact area in 7–9 days.When

another allograft was applied to thesame host after a resting period, the same

reaction occurred in only 3–4 days.Cell death was limited to the graft tissue

interface, suggesting that this re-sponse was mediated by a contact or

short-range cytotoxic molecule, ratherthan by a diffusible, long-range molecule

(Salter-Cid and Bigger 1991). Addi-tional studies are needed to confirm these

observations.In summary, the immune system of corals shares similarities with

other in-vertebrates, but is so poorly known that important differences might

yet sur-face.The least understood components of coral immunity involve any

possiblecollaboration between coral and algal cells and the role of the

symbiosis in im-22. Coral Resistance to Disease 385

[onthefly]

Maybe I should start working on an immunosupressive drug for corals?

 

This is no different than having a mix breed dog!

[supernip]

aren't all dogs Canis lupus familiaris?

[onthefly]

Yup! That's why I say grafting a hunk of orange Monti cap to a purple monti cap....is no different than mixing a rottie and a poodle.....you're "fusing" 2 of the same species. Obviously, this is an oversimplification because I'm talking about breeding vs. grafting. But, invert physiology/immunology is way different than mammalian anyway so any comparisons are vague at best.

[Caesar777]

Um...I'd say it's closer to grafting a human ear onto a rat's back.

[jeremai]

Or, like I stated before - grafting my heart into your body. It's all in the perspective.

[Caesar777]

 

"I've created a monster!"

 

http://home.att.net/~warplover/07_chimera.html

[Six]

my point is that he isnt knowledgably fusing the exact species together.

 

so sure, two of the same species fusing is "natural" but he doesnt know what species he has in the Acanthastrea echinata-types and the Echinophyllia species. maybe that's not his point, to fuse two of the same species.... so what is the point?

 

the article isnt scientific by any means. thats all. they present it as fact, or seem to, since its published.

 

 

 

Yup! That's why I say grafting a hunk of orange Monti cap to a purple monti cap....is no different than mixing a rottie and a poodle.....you're "fusing" 2 of the same species. Obviously, this is an oversimplification because I'm talking about breeding vs. grafting. But, invert physiology/immunology is way different than mammalian anyway so any comparisons are vague at best.

 

So, you can ID coral down to species.... how? You can't, I can't, and the writer of the article can't because he didn't really attempt to.

 

there are many species of Montipora that look similar to capricornis. So... yeah, i understand your point, but saying it like it's a simple matter isn't quite accurate. IMO.

 

Even the experts try not to play god and see a coral and call it a species name. Foshizzle.