Liverock order snafu

[Centrek]

Last Saturday I was taking a trip up to Chicago for the day w/ my sister and her friend. I told them i'd go, but only if we could stop by Harbor Aquatics on the way. So they agreed. Now, i could have done some better planning to get the liverock home a lot sooner, but i didn't. I live in Fort Wayne, so the drive to Chicago is about 3.5-4hrs. Harbor Aquatics was about 2.5-3 hrs from home. We got to HA at 1200CST (they're on CST time unlike the rest of IN which is on EST this time of the year) Anyway, I get there at noon, and walk back to the greenhouse that they have attached to the barn. No one was in there, and since this was my first time being there, I wasn't too sure what to do. After a bit, a lady came back there and asked what i was looking for. I said liverock, and she pointed me to the 3 large troughs that they had with liverock in them. She handed my a tub and told me to just pick out the pieces that I wanted and let her know when I was done.

 

It was really pretty cool, they let you, and actually require u to pick out your own liverock. So i pulled up my sleeves, and started grabbing pieces and holding them above the water to see which I liked best. I picked out 7 pieces and told her I was ready. She weighed them, and then put them in my cooler that I brought along.

 

Now, i wasn't sure how the LR would do being out of water for 12hours. She overed the LR with a wet rag in the cooler. Now, if I had done this differently, I would have made a special trip to Harbor Aquatics and gone right back home to put it in my tank, but instead we went to Chicago for the day, which really wasn't a very long trip, pretty much just waited an hour for dinner, ate, then drove back home. So i put the LR in my tank at 1am, 12CST. The rock was so much better than I could get at any of the LFSs, and 1/2 the price!!

I'm extremely happy with Harbor Aquatics, and I can't wait till I can go back to get more when my basement is done and I relocate my tank.

 

I'd post some pictures of the rock I got, but i only have a DV Camera, which takes horrible stills, and the shots w/ the lights on my tank are so horrible, it looks like I'm only running the actinics. If i find someone w/ a good dig camera in the next couple days i'll post some pics of the rock, but it is by far the best rock i've ever seen in person.

[Dave ESPI]

HEY GUYS ! whats' this thread all about?

damn it....

 

Tl;Dr.

 

Ive stayed out of this thread till now just to see who knew what and who has been listening and researching.

 

LIQUID, I'm impressed. I bet this is the single biggest thread replies you have done, and it takes like say...... near an hour a post right? Its refreshing for me to read someone elses thread replies and they have EXACTLY the understanding I do about rock. koodos.

 

FOR THE RECORD: CURED is a status of rock at time tested and prior to ANY shipping stage. your rock can be "cured" in their 14,000 gallon systems and no ammonia or dieoff can be measured in their systems, BUT that does NOT mean that the rock is "safe" for yoursmall closed loop home systems. Spending upwards of DOUBLE the price for so called "cured" rock is a waste IME. When the rock has reached the point where it is cured in huge vats at a transshippers 85 % of the initial 'LIFE" in the "LIVEROCK" is dead, decayed, non existant, OR barely hanging on.

The BEST rock is long gone off many reefs and much of the stuff comming out of FIJI suppliers is crap. You really have to know what you are looking at. I have used Harbour Aquatics a few years ago for a small sample order... I liked it a LOT, but it was not in my price range to be resellable at a decent price.

Caribbian rock is nice, but dense. While there is a lot of life on it, it can be subject to a lack of long term micto organizim diversity and viability due to the lack of centuries old internal lattice work and catacombs of life deep within the Natural Reef rock.

www.liverocks.com for Gulf and Caribbian rock is another Awesome outfit. I use them exclusively and many peeps here from nano have used them (upon my reccomendation and others) with great results.

 

 

 

Tl;Dr: Again GREAT ROCK thread.

 

 

Curing and selecting Liverock is an art-form and skill you can't learn from books or web pages. You either have "it" or ya don't

[cmv]

Well this is my last reply in this thread until I actually visit Harbor Aquatics. I don't think there is much to add until then...

 

liquid said:

when you go to harbor, ask them if since it is the same rock in there display tank to just sell you that rock for the same low price and I bet they come up with a ton of excuses not to sell the pretty stuff in the display tanks and if they do I bet it will be for more money. Or tell them you are willing to pay less for un-cured rock with all the life still on it when they first get the shipment in before they cure it and the die off occurs, they will not know what to say since it almost always comes in looking bare and dead as the stuff they are selling as cured.

I'm not sure where you're going here... I wouldn't expect them to sell me rock from their display tanks for the same price as their regular rock. That would be like going into a jewelery store and expected 28k gold for the price of 14k. I think the photos of their cured rock aren't all that great given the rave reviews people seem to have for their rock. They seem to want to represent size more than life. I'm not interested in buying their uncured rock either. Why wouldn't it look totally dead when it comes in? After all it goes through the same shipping process as the other rock, right?

 

Dave said:

BUT that does NOT mean that the rock is "safe" for yoursmall closed loop home systems

Nobody has suggested it is.

Spending upwards of DOUBLE the price for so called "cured" rock is a waste IME. When the rock has reached the point where it is cured in huge vats at a transshippers 85 % of the initial 'LIFE" in the "LIVEROCK" is dead, decayed, non existant, OR barely hanging on.

If we were paying double this would be a valid point but, in this area, it appears to be the best deal on rock. Shipping is expensive. I don't want 45 pounds of rock either (nano afterall). If I did want 40+ pounds I'd look closer at Gulf View as everyone seems to have a good word for them. That HA claims the rock to be "cured" doesn't matter to me all that much. I'm more interested in getting the best rock for the money. Not a lot of options for non-shipping in the midwest.

The BEST rock is long gone off many reefs and much of the stuff comming out of FIJI suppliers is crap. You really have to know what you are looking at.

About when would you say the quality of Fiji rock started going down and then hit mostly crap level?

I have used Harbour Aquatics a few years ago for a small sample order... I liked it a LOT, but it was not in my price range to be resellable at a decent price.

I'm glad to hear another postive note. Do you own an online outfit, Dave? If so, which one?

 

Centrek: Hope you can borrow a digicam. It would be great to see a few shots.

[Dave ESPI]

Originally posted by cmv

Well this is my last reply in this thread I don't think there is much to add until...

 

 

Dave said:

 

Nobody has suggested it is.

Dont start with me you wont win...Actualy some one WAS mentioning Curing at home so the statement is relevent

 

If we were paying double this would be a valid point but, in this area, it appears to be the best deal on rock.

 

YOU MISSED MY POINT It was a matter of speeking about price retail NOT deep discounter wholesaler you can "walk into"

Shipping is expensive. I don't want 45 pounds of rock either (nano afterall). If I did want 40+ pounds I'd look closer at Gulf View as everyone seems to have a good word for them.

 

About when would you say the quality of Fiji rock started going down and then hit mostly crap level?

 

1998 Just after EL NINO and the PALAU Bleaching.

 

Do you own an online outfit, Dave? If so, which one?

 

hell no. They are robbers and cut throat thieves that undercut even MY WHOLESALE COST on supplies at their retail prices. I'm just a high end word of mouth reef maint. water changing and dead animal pulling Monkey.

[LiQuiD]

This should be shorter...

 

I'm not sure where you're going here... I wouldn't expect them to sell me rock from their display tanks for the same price as their regular rock. That would be like going into a jewelery store and expected 28k gold for the price of 14k.

 

Why would you not expect them to sell it to you at the same price, since THEY say it is the same rock, just that it has been in their tank for 8 weeks longer then the others, they do say "this is what your rock will look like...". You can't compare it to the jewelery store unless they were both 14k the same weight etc. just the one in the window has been there for 8 weeks. So if it is in the window for longer, it is worth more? Bottom line is they say it is the same rock, just after everything has grown back so, to me, same rock should be same price, only it is not the same rock as the rest of the dead looking stuff, it is the nice pieces that came in that they put to the side for the display tanks to say that yours "SHOULD" look like this after the stuff grows back in 8 weeks unless "YOU KILL IT OFF YOURSELF BY IMPROPER HOME CURING" then it will continue to look the same as the day you bought it. Well chances are, the dead stuff will not ............NO, I can't keep doing this.

 

Enough, good bye, buy whatever floats you peoples boats and be happy, this thread is dead.

 

What was the thread about again anyway, Satchmo's rock delay right? OK, hope your rock makes it in on Tuesday, let us know how it goes, and don't forget some picks.

[cmv]

I shouldn't have put that "last reply" thingy, I knew it would bite me in the rear .

 

Dont start with me you wont win...Actualy some one WAS mentioning Curing at home so the statement is relevent

Did they really say there were going to cure it in there already stable setup? BTW, I'm not trying to win anything here. I know a lot less than everyone else in this thread about live rock. Just see my sig if in doubt! I appreciate the time LiQuiD put into his replies. Lots of good information here.

 

YOU MISSED MY POINT It was a matter of speeking about price retail NOT deep discounter wholesaler you can "walk into"

 

nitpick mode:

Places like HA are retailers. They may wholesale too but if they sell direct to the consumer, online or in person, they are retailers.

/nitpick mode

 

I do realize what you mean about "wholesale versus retail" but, seriously, why should this matter to me? I can walk into the closest retail shop that sells live rock, one hour away, and pay $10/pound for ultra bare "live rock." Even if this place had quality rock why wouldn't I go to another place that also has quality rock but sells it for $4? Do you have better stores/sources in your area without such a difference in price?

 

Thanks for the information on the Fiji reef. I'm going to go read up on that as it sounds very interesting.

[cmv]

Why would you not expect them to sell it to you at the same price

Because every additional minute that rock sits in their tanks it costs them $$$.

it is the nice pieces that came in that they put to the side for the display tanks

No, it is the rock that they have put in tanks to grow to show the possible end result if you do the same. I doubt any of the rock they pull out of boxes looks like that picture.

unless "YOU KILL IT OFF YOURSELF BY IMPROPER HOME CURING"

AFAIK, the history of this little bit is that one transshipper claimed "there is no cured rock." So HA says, "yes there is, we sell it." I think it is marketing too because they are trying to sell their cured rock. We all know that excellent results can come from uncured rock so I just ignore it.

NO, I can't keep doing this.

Me neither. Thanks for sharing your view and experience.

 

I'm sorry for killing this thread and, in retrospect, this got way off topic. Next time I'll start a new thread or not post .

[LiQuiD]

This may never end I feel.

 

Because every additional minute that rock sits in their tanks it costs them $$$.

 

If they had NO pretty display tank and pictures of it to have online for you to come in and see, it would COST them money. The display makes them money it doesn't cost them money. The display is advertising and helps sell the more dead rock in hopes that it will magically grow into the stuff in the display tank (cover of sea monkeys package as a child ring a bell). It doesn't cost them money to have it there, it is what is making them money (obviously from your posts) The transhipping process of the rock is not like a bearded man going to the barber for a shave, and has his hair shaved off his face to look clean and hair free, to end up with a full beard again in 8 weeks. Again, DIE off is DIE off, DEAD is DEAD there is no coming back remember (unless you are hindu, then I am sorry for my words) Some stuff sometimes will grow from the rock and is usually macro algea, but there is no way in hell that the pieces in the back in 8 weeks of "proper" home curing (beside, I thought they said it WAS cured, then wouldn't it look like the display tanks, or do they mean the re-cure at home, they don't even make sence)will look like the display, NOTHING EVER DOES (pictures of burgers at Burger King or McDonalds when you walk in and look at the menu, can you even say the actual product looks anywhere near what you saw, but nobody brings the food back to the counter and says "I want my money back, it doesn't look like that")

[Tanstaafl]

Satchmo,

Did you place your live rock order yet? I don't think you need to be in a hurry. I got my order confirmation for my nassarius snails from floridapets"Due to the holiday season and abreviated shipping week, All orders will be processed on Monday, Jan. 6th 2003. All orders are very important to us and each order is packed carefully and shipped via UPS two day air. Your order will go out no later than Tuesday the 7th." and palmetto reefs "The safest window for shipping appears to be next week, so I will just have a fresh box shipped as we would have originally done. I am sorry for the delay- I thought we had the shipping delays beat " but, my order from Marine Depot of a water test kit and some calcium cloride was sent on the 30th and UPS tracking says it will be here monday the 6th, so apparently only air-freight and fedex overnight and 2nd day are delayed, so you should have plenty of time to deciede on what to get and another chance at timing it for your next day(s) off.

 

Good Luck!!

-=Mark=-

 

p.s. this is so lame, I have to feed an empty fish tank just to keep the cycle going. The family thinks I've gone crazy? first paying over $200 for rocks, which they acused me of having rocks in my head, and now feeding imaginary fish:o. It better get here quick before the haul me off to the funny farmX).

[Satchmo]

Well, if there are going to be delays, it's too late. I placed an order this morning (Thurs) with liveaquaria. It went out FedEx and is supposed to be here in the morning.

 

We're getting a bit of an ice/snow storm here. They shut down Rt 3 in both directions, there were spun-out cars littered all over the road. I was stuck for 3 hours tonight (w/o heat, cause I was running on fumes and had to shut the engine off... loads of fun that was). It doesn't look promising for incoming flights tonight or ground transport in the morning. Gotta check the weather more often. Just the way this week's been going I guess. I'll update tomorrow on how it went.

[Dave ESPI]

Satchmo froze his beans off

Well, if there are going to be delays, it's too late.  

We're getting a bit of an ice/snow storm here.    I was stuck for 3 hours tonight (w/o heat, cause I was running on fumes and had to shut the engine off... loads of fun that was).  

 

Never leave home W/O them.

[gobies]

I got my LR from Harbor. Drove over with 5g buckets w/ lids, got rock and some of their tank water, drove home, added the rock to the tank along with my corals (bought 'em from a guy thru RC and met him at Harbor to pick them up). Sucky photo, but you should get an idea of the general quality of their rock.

 

CMV -- keep your buckets on the floor in the back seat, or if you go w/ rubbermaid tubs or coolers put 'em on the seat. Just put a big plastic garbage bag on the seat, a few towels over that, and use the seat belts to keep the tubs from moving around. If you keep them in the back seat, they won't lose the heat as quickly, since it's presumably warmer in the back seat than the trunk.

[Satchmo]

All hail the FedEx Guy! Rock is here and Satch is smiling. I'll be back later for an update. I know you'll all be anxiously waiting :

[Satchmo]

Got my 45lbs of Fiji from www.liveaquaria.com

Overall, I'm pretty happy. It was packed well, arrived on time, and smelled nice 'n fresh. Good pieces- 2 nice big boys about a foot across each, and the rest range from 3-8". Not many broken bits of rubble which I was happy about. Coralline coverage leaves a bit to be desired, but it does have some really nice patches of color- mostly browns, greens, a few bright purple and red spots. Coverage should be better on premium rock, but I'll get it to take off. Has what looks to be a bleached porites encrusted around one piece- would have been nice if that had made it. Found some worms and pods in the bottom of the box, so I'm sure there's some decent life in there. I most happy with the physical quality of the rock itself. Just the density I was looking for, and it's nice and knobbed and gnarly. So I'm just gonna let her run and see what pops out. I'll test in a few hours to see what kind of ammonia spike I get, but from the look and smell of the stuff, I don't expect it to be too bad.

[Dave ESPI]

This is a good thread...

why hasn't anyone ruined it yet? ???

[technoshaman]

Glad you liked your rock from liveaquaria. I ordered some tonga branch from them , uncured supposedly straight out da ocean. When I got it looked about like dead bleached staghorn tips, a few small patches of sponge and things but overall #### poor for anything living. Still nice looking pieces and I threw it all in a large 20 high to cure and am giving it about 12 hours on and off light to see if I can get anything growing on it. I consider it pretty much cured now after a month and have kind of left it alone since I have found some interesting cryptic sponges and tunicates coming back as well as small patches of coralline. Glad you got some nice rock. I think for my next order it's definitely going to be gulf view or tampa bay saltwater (anyone in central texas want to go in on an order with me?)

[WhiteRat]

Hi guys. I am stunned that somebody posted links to my tank here. Thanks Liquid. More up-to-date pics can be found at Ratty's Reef

 

I'm just gonna add my own experience here. Not gonna say 'You will...' because so far I am on my first reef tank ever and hell if I have any major level of experience/authority.

 

First off, I got the live rock that Liquid posted from Tampa Bay Salt Water. Nice guys. The rock looked nothing like the 'dead except for coralline algae/bacteria' rock that most of the LFSes have. It shipped out, as someone said, same day, with Richard at TBSW calling to let me know just what flight and what time to pick it up from the airport. I can't recommend picking stuff up at the airport enough, you save a LOT over what Fedex charges to bring it the last five miles to your home!

 

Secondly, TBSW ships their 'package' in two chunks. All the LS and half the LR up front, then after your tank has cycled the send the remainder of the LR and all the inverts.

 

So my tank cycled easy as you please, and then a few weeks passed, and I emailed TBSW and told'em I was ready for the second half of the package.

 

The second half they described as 'We sent you some really killer rock.' Well...They sure did. I somewhat suspected that it would cause another cycle in the tank. OMFG did it ever. I got a spike four times higher than the initial one, and for a few days of frantic 1/3-tank waterchanges, I thought I was going to lose everything. I spent eighteen hours last Saturday/Sunday taking each rock out of the aquarium, scrubbing it off with a toothbrush, picking off dead/dying chunks of sponge, then putting it in a tub with lots of powerheads. I slurried my live sand by stirring it up in salt water, then poured it down a diagonal tray with eggcrate in it to catch the heavier particles so any debris could be washed loose. Put it all back together at 6AM on Sunday morning and it's been doing much better. It's still cycling, but it hasn't gone even halfway to the lethal danger zone it was in previously.

 

So yes, I believe you will end up curing your own rock due to die-off en route to your home from wherever. The degree of the cure depends on how much live stuff has died in that last transition since it last 'cycled' in someone's 'curing tub'. If there is very little complex life left on the rock to be injured/killed in the last shipment, you will cycle pretty easily as your rock 're-cures'. If you have a ton of beautiful stuff on it, well, you may lose some and your cycle will be grim.

 

I did a great deal of research before starting this hobby, I have been reading about reefs and microreefing for two years, but only started my own in November.

 

Like so many hobbies, there are a couple of different approaches to reeftanking. You can be extremely safe, and get reliable, dependable results in the long term. You can take some risks and maybe screw yourself up...Or maybe achieve some amazing things in the short term.

 

In reeftanking this translates into buying 'cured' practically-dead rock with only coralline algae on it, cycling a tank full of boring-looking rocks, then gradually adding things bought or traded for. Advantage: Dependability, safety. Disadvantage: Lack of variety in retailers compared to what might be on the biome of a 'fresh' rock. Or...You can buy 'uncured' rock with an insane amount of life on it, bust your butt knowing that you've got to do a ton of water changes and really take good care of it or the whole thing may collapse due to die-off in your tank instead of the dealer's big holding tubs. Advantage: Incredible biome, stuff living on your rock that dealers don't carry. Disadvantage: Requires an outrageous amount of maintenance, may contain undesireable life, and if you fail to pay close attention and take care of it you'll have a very dead tank very quickly.

 

I took the risky path and haven't regretted it. Yeah, I've had mantis shrimps. I've had aiptasia. However, every single day I look at my tank and find one or two, sometimes three or four, new critters popping up that I've never seen before. It's exciting. Every morning I'm on safari in my own little unknown octopus' garden, trying to spot the latest surprise.

 

Some people will not want to take the risks inherent in uncured rock. They will want complete control of their tanks and what is in them. Other people will not want to deal with what they see as a bland or incomplete 'artificial' biome created by buying stuff and sticking it onto rock which has nothing left on it but coralline. It all amounts to individual preference.

 

Reefing is still way too young to be a 'science'. The opinions in the books five years ago don't match the ones from last year, and the majority of knowledge is word-of-mouth in active communities like this one. That knowledge is based on individual experiences, and individual experiences will vary tremendously.

 

We're all making it up as we go along, on one level or another.

 

Ratty

[Pikelet]

Back to the subject at hand ...

 

I think Flying Fish's response time was not atypical and, frankly, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I don't think they were trying to rip you off so don't feel singled out. That's just the way that particular company does business.

 

As others have mentioned, please don't expect too much from live rock from the Pacific these days as its predominantly of poor quality. It does the job of filtration but that's about it. You can certainly buy live rock with plenty of life from Florida but, like all things in life, it has its problems too - mantis shrimp, hairy crabs, pest algae, heavy and low porosity. So ... you take your chances. In the long run it will all work out fine whichever way you go, so don't sweat it.

 

If you just want to add a little more rock to an existing tank you could try the Garf handmade rock or make your own. Check Garf for details.

 

 

:*(

[Dave ESPI]

garf rock is even worse of an idea. while it is fairly porous, it rarely ever is cured (as it is man made with aragacrete) and leaches into the water for upwards of a year.

 

I totaly agree that the Live rock comming out of the indo paciffic is total crap as of recent, but that is in part because of the lack of good handling pratices.

 

Ratt, good response.

 

The tonga rock you speek of is awesome when freshly pulled from the ocean, but infortunately, it is left high and dry for nearly a WEEK ! even before it hits the continental US and even then some transhippers are so FN' lazy, that they simply LEAVE it in the boxes and dont add it to any vats of "intermediate CURE" to even try and rebreathe the life that at this point is barely hanging on for dear life..... its appauling.

 

Some serious changes need to be made on the diver/ supplier/ wholesale jobber levels at the collection station

it bloews hard.

 

too bad, because we all pay for ###### in the end.....

 

at least we are NOT paying the prices for junk like some reefers "across the pond"

 

to the tune of 15.00 american a POUND of LR.

[Pikelet]

Originally posted by Dave ESPI

garf rock is even worse of an idea. while it is fairly porous, it rarely ever is cured (as it is man made with aragacrete) and leaches into the water for upwards of a year.

 

ESPI. Crap response.

 

Did I say that you could add Garf rock directly to your tank? NO!!!

 

Why don't you just @#$% off, show pony.