Liverock order snafu

[Satchmo]

Setting up my 46g and ordered Flying Fish's Fiji special of 45lb for $151 shipped. Just figured I'd share the story.

 

I placed my order over the weekend (their office was closed), specifically requesting an email Monday morning to confirm the order and a Tuesday delivery. They didn't get back to me until Monday at about 5pm, at which time they told me they were out of rock, but were getting in more this weekend, and could get me a shipment by next Tuesday. I wasn't too happy about this. If they had told me this in the morning, as I had requested, I would have still had time to go through another supplier and get the rock overnighted to me by Tuesday morning (the day I have off).

 

They claim to have "pre-cured" rock. My understanding was that they held the rock for a few weeks to allow the major curing to take place before distribution to customers. So I asked how this could possibly happen if they were getting a new shipment in this weekend, and planned to send it to me by Tuesday? The reply was that the rock was being sent to them already cured and I can expect little die off. ??? It just sounds too shady to me, so I'm canceling my order. They're getting rock shipped to them, then plan to just relay it to me? Too much time in transit, IMO.

 

I do understand them running out of rock. It's a business and things like that happen. But if they had let me know earlier, as I had asked them to, I would have had other options. Instead, I'm sitting here typing this on my day off instead of aquascaping my new tank.

[tinyreef]

satch,

me too! i just ordered from an ols and even got a phone confirmation for delivery 10:30am today. so i'm sitting there in my office waiting for this shipment (mostly cleanup crew stuff) and it never shows. X) no tracking number but i figured i got a human confirmation for pete's sake. :

 

PST rolls around until i can call (1pm EST) and find out they never shipped even tho someone had followed up. not as bad as your situation tho, i was just worried my snails were freezing on a fedex truck somewhere. re-scheduled for friday.

 

check themarinecenter.com for LR imo. they also have a good definition of 'cured' and 'uncured'. not sure on their cust svc but their quality is usually very good. exoticfish.com is also good quality and usually very good cust svc., good size corals too.

[Satchmo]

That sucks man. My situation isn't a huge deal, but I did arrange the day off and the order to coincide and was pretty excited to get my arms wet. Ah well. I'm on my way out now to start the festivities but I will look into your liverock leads tomorrow. Thanks. Have a great New Year!

[Fant]

There is no such thing as buying 'cured' or 'pre cured' rock. Rock doesnt become 'cured' until its in your possession and you 'cure' it yourself.. Question why do we buy sick rock?

[Satchmo]

Why does this come up everytime someone says "cured"? Yes there is such thing. Does it mean I can put shipped "pre-cured" rock in my tank and have zero die off? Of course not. But there is a difference between rock left to cure for several weeks after it is imported, then shipped overnight to me and rock shipped directly from a the foreign collector, to a distributor, to me. Of course I expect die off. I just want it mimimized. Cured rock does not mean it's plug-and-play. It simply means the rock has been held for x number of weeks to allow the major die off from importation to break down. There will be another round of die off after the rock gets shipped to you, but not nearly as bad as if it were uncured. Alright, now I'm leaving... really!

[cmv]

I agree with Satchmo. Just look at HarborAquatics.com and compare the photos of their product to other sites. Photos lie but purchasers reviews on groups like rec.aquaria.marine.reefs attest to the quality of Harbor Aquatics' product.

 

If they have to ship to you, of course the quality is going down, but my plan is to drive down there and pick up the rock myself. They let you go into their curing room and pick and match exactly what you want to put in your tank (and you can bring a tank in so you can check the arrangement)... Sure it might die a bit on the ride home--I'm looking at rigging up a heater in the car to avoid that--but it is still a heck of a lot better than most shipped rock. Maybe if I wanted 45 pounds of rock I'd order it but for smaller quantities, I think pickup makes sense...

 

$4-$4.25/pound for good rock in driving distance is just too cool consider we're in the Midwest.

[LiQuiD]

From what most are seeing lately, most of the stuff from Fiji, Jakarta, Bali, etc. that is being imported now a days is basically void of life to begin with. I don't know if it's because of the amount gone out recently from the rise in the hobby and they have blown and chiseled off all of the good top layer stuff and are now down to the basically dead stuff. I buy mine from LFS for convienience and that I like to pick out my rock but would probably not go with one of the Indonessian middle men if I wanted some nice rock for a new tank. I would buy from a US LR Aquaculturist. A few years back I designed a website for Tampa Bay Saltwater http://www.tbsaltwater.com (it is still the same site which wasn't bad for web design standards back then) and they are here in the US in Florida. There is another one (forgot the name, Gulf something" that is similar. I designed the site for a barter trade (wanted to fill a large tank with rock, free) but never did get around to asking for the rock (one day I will get it). Anyway, he has millions of pounds of this rock (literally, read the site) on his own little leased portion of the ocean in the Florida Keys so running out of LR would not be a problem. The rock is not cured, none whatsoever, but what he does is he will go out and dive for the rock order you place, then he will run it over to the airport. The only problem is you have to go pick it up at your local airport. The good thing is, it is only out of the natural water for a few hours and has little die off (he will call you and say "I just put it on the plane, should be by you in 2 hours and 14 minutes") If the rock is to be used for a new tank, you would want it this way (if for a tank that has been running, the die off would cause problems). You would have to go through the multi day curing process with water changes but would end up with the best looking LR you can get (if your into life and colors on your rock;) ) I would only put cured in an established tank but if it is a tank with nothing in it but water, cure it yourself and get the most life you can get. I don't have any rock to show you (aside from the picks on their site) but Whiterat from this board had recently gotten a bunch for I believe a 30 gallon. You would get what they call the package, it comes with base rock, decorator rock, live sand and critters, all in one purchase)Whiterat's web site with pics of the rock is at http://www.bastet.org/~whiterat/reeftank

I have attached a couple of pictures from Whiterat's site, and if it were me I would start a new tank with this stuff.

 

 

 

[NanoReefer53]

$130 shipped for 30lb of some of the BEST quality live rock.

http://www.gulf-view.com

Very good reputation.

[Donna]

Geezz.....I had a great experience with Palmetto's as did Ross...great rock and it's as close to cured as you'll get with 2 day shipping. My ammonia never went over 0.50 and nitrites never went over .025...Call Darren...he's a great guy and he bends over backwards to help with anything you need

[Tanstaafl]

Hello Everyone,

I just found this site from a link at www.aqualinkwebforum.com This is a very nice site. did you see that Tank of the month:o, wish my nano was that nice. sorry I went off topic.

 

I know what you mean Satchmo, I ordered my live rock Thursday before christmas and still waiting. It seems the mail system is backed up and most sites say shipping won't continue until Jan. 6th. I ordered from Palmetto reefs and Warren has tried everything to get me the live rock. He last was gonna try to mail it yesterday second air to see if it would make it, but my guess is no as tomorrow is New Year's Day and I believe no mail will be delivered. Hopefully I get it soon, but I am not expecting it until about Jan. 8th through the 10th.

 

Liquid, the place is www.gulf-view.com and they have aquacultured rock and is a good place to buy from, escpecially if you want to help save some reefs. That guy brought in several tons of rock to his location down in the gulf and built his own reef. he has been curing it for years. The stuff looks pretty good and have heard nothing but good things about them.

 

I also agree with Satchmo about the cured rock stuff. It is definatly better for a pre-established tank to get fully cured rock from a MO that has been cured/curing in a tank that will not stress the tank as much as some stuff coming in from overseas to your house. But, I prefer to get uncured rock (straight from the ocean to your house untouched)as it has more good stuff on it usually than the pre-cured stuff but you will need to cure in empty tank cause there will be a lot of die off and a lot of stink:x. so if you have a spare tank or a large tub or spare trash can, it is worth it to get the uncured stuff.

 

Just my two cents worth

-=Mark=-

[linesides]

FWIW, pre-cured rock simply means that the rock sat at its place of origin under a salt spray. Some things die, some dont. Its a catch phrase to lead you to beleive you a getting a superior product. The distributor takes no action to ensure that this rock is of any higher quality than, say, trans-shipped rock. If you want cured rock you must buy from a retailer who has cured the rock in-house, himself. FF-express refused to give me specific questions regarding their so-called cured rock. As far as their special was concerned, their sales department told me the rock was brought in from their wholesaler, opened and inspected, then repackaged to be shipped to the buyer. And this they told me only after I requested the information three times. They first tried to beat around the bush. Not that there is anything wrong with their rock, but do some extensive research on companies before you buy from them.

[LiQuiD]

Curing has nothing to do with spray bars (although it is one way of keeping some stuff alive and wash away the dead). Bottom line is this, the life on LR is alive when it is in saltwater (duh). When the indonessian rock collectors collect it, they keep it in their banana boats in the blazing sun for a while before throwing it onto the back of a pickup truck for several hours, to then drive it (still in the blazing sun and plenty of air to dry it out) to the distributer to get their .20 cents per pound to go feed their families (yes, I have researched this). Wholesale distributer then throws it back into water before shipping (sometimes). Basically, when micro and macro organisms that survive in a specific under water environment are taken out and left to bake in the sun, things die. Dead stuff in your tank is not good (as all decomposing mass in an aquarium is bad). The curing as it is known is just the time it takes for the dead mass to fully break down and what is still alive to stablize. Once it is stable and the dead mass is decomposed and gone, it is considered "cured" or stable in a tank. What happens is the LR is taken out of the water so many times and for such long amounts of time, there is tons of die off. Basically, there is no such thing as getting cured LR, if out of the water for an amount of time, die off occurs, just some is less then others. Even the stuff from Florida that has only been pulled out of it's original place of origin and only out of the water for several hours before you receive it and put in your tank will have die off, it is inevitable. The point is, this is the best "Live" rock to get for a new tank (just water) since it will have the most life left once cured in someones tank. Right now the rock in our tanks are cured, if we take it out for an hour or so to move things around, it is uncured (some die off has occured in the air), we put it back in the tank and it will become cured after the die off goes through it's cycle (which would probably not even be noticed due to the short time out and little die off). Correct, it is a catch phrase, nothing is really cured unless it is packaged underwater in it's original water and recieved quickly, as soon as it is removed for an amount of time, it must be cured. Typically, the only life on the indonessian rock you get now a days is coraline algea and some bacteria, thats it, the corals and cool stuff are usually all but wiped out on the rock. If you look at the Florida stuff, there is sometimes more surface area covered by sponges and other coral then rock surface. Actually, you can get totally cured rock, its called Dead Rock.

 

Bottom line is whatever rock is out of the water the least is the best rock to receive.

[cmoreash]

Great post Liquid, which is exactly my opinion on why we shouldnt let ourselves get ripped off by paying a lot for "cured" live rock.

[cmv]

LiQuiD:

 

What about Harbor Aquatics? I'm close enough to drive there and back. Given that I won't have the high shipping costs and I can load up my car, I'll be able to transport the rock in water.

 

I'd call what they are selling cured rock. They have 3,000 gallon cattle watering troughs filled with rock and water along with predators for things like mantis shrimp.

 

The defination of cured rock to me is that you can plunk the rock into your tank without experiencing the typical cycle one gets when buying transshiped rock.

 

I realize your point is that if the cured rock is shipped, you lose some of the benefits of it being cured, but if one can pickup cured rock at affordable prices, it seems to be the best bet. Which also seems to be your conclusion. Hrm, what is my point?

 

I guess my point is that your final comment, that getting rock from another tank is best, is an option to those of us who have a decent store within driving distance.

 

Cured rock exists, it just isn't an option for everyone, and the benefit of having it precured is going to vary based on the store that provides it. You can see Harbor Aquatics site here:

 

www.harboraquatics.com

 

$4/pound for regular Fiji

$4.35/pound for large Fiji

$4.25/pound for Tonga branch/slab

 

Here is a direct link to their live rock section. It explains their curing process...

 

My plan is to drive down there to pick it up. Bring it back in a large rubbermaid container with an airpump and a heater. I'll probably spend as much in gas as I would to order live rock online shipped but I think it is worth my time.

[linesides]

Liquid., I agree. I was only differentiating between the terms "cured" and "precured" as per ffexpress.

[LiQuiD]

CMV:

 

What about Harbor Aquatics? I'm close enough to drive there and back. Given that I won't have the high shipping costs and I can load up my car, I'll be able to transport the rock in water.

 

That would be great, as long as the drive is not that long that would be a good deal at that price. What I am saying is ths, the link you listed http://www.harboraquatics.com/Merchant2/me...ategory_Code=LR shows at the bottom a picture that says "this is what good live rock should look like" and they are correct the rock should have all the natural growth that you see on it. the funny thing is, under it it says "This piece of live rock has been grown out in our show tank for about 8 weeks.

You'll soon have grow out like this as well but not if you kill off most of the life by curing it improperly." and when yours never ends up looking like that rock and you call them they will say "well, you must not have cured it properly and it died", not, what you receive is basically what you get. You may get some macro's grow back but nothing as the "advertising" would lead you to believe. Above it has a picture of the "cured fiji live rock", notice the difference? It does still look like it has some life (and it is an advertisement picture) but it doesn't look like the picture that says "this is what good live rock should look like". I hope you get rock like that, that would be great.

 

I'd call what they are selling cured rock.

 

So would I, until you take it out of the tank, put it in a hefty bag, throw it in your trunk with a major temp change and drive home, then lay it out on your living room floor at a different temp again, without water on it, while more stuff dies, as you decide which piece should go where in the tank.

 

The defination of cured rock to me is that you can plunk the rock into your tank without experiencing the typical cycle one gets when buying transshiped rock.

 

That would be the case, the problem is you don't get the cycle because the rock is mostly dead by this point (taken from reef with die off before being cured in indonesia, then taken out again and shipped to USA to then be re-cured from the second huge amount of die off, to then be pulled out and shipped again to then be re-cured in final destination tank from third round of die off). The point I was trying to make is if it is a "NEW" tank, who cares about the cycle of the rock, there is no fish or coral that you purchased in the tank that may die as a result, so I would much rather go through a "cycle" with fresh rock full of macro algea, encrusting corals & coraline then no cycle with dead, blah looking rock with no life but some coraline and some benificial bacteria (hey, if it didn't have at least the bacteria and a little color you may as well buy the white dry dead stuff and seed that). Why does no one ever understand this, I mean, everyone is always in a rush and wants to stock the tank the day after they put the rock in the tank. I would not suggest putting a bunch of this Florida rock in a semi-established tank because of the risk of killing your existing lifeforms due to the die off from the rocks die offs.

 

I guess my point is that your final comment, that getting rock from another tank is best, is an option to those of us who have a decent store within driving distance.

 

Actually my point is getting it with the shortest shipping distance and with the least amount of middle men and multiple cycles and die offs. I never said geting rock from another tank is best, just the opposite, the best would be to live along side a reef and to have it out of water for only a few minutes then throw it into your tank (and very few of us have it like that. I only wish). I buy from the LFS for convenience but I must admit the rock sucks, yes, it is cured Fiji rock but not the way nature intended it to look, this stuff is crap. I did not have a cycle in my last tank set up because there was no die off and it had the proper amount of bacteria, not because it is cured, because there is no life on it but the bacteria and a little coraline, not one invert, coral, or macro algea.

 

My plan is to drive down there to pick it up. Bring it back in a large rubbermaid container with an airpump and a heater. I'll probably spend as much in gas as I would to order live rock online shipped but I think it is worth my time.

 

Hope you have a SEALED container or you will have one smelly wet vehicle. I am also curious where you are going to plug in the heater and the air pump in your car. Also, if you are going to spend as much on gas as to ship it, you had better have what you say you are going to ship it with, because if it is that far of a drive without it, it will basically be "un-cured" by the time you get it in your tank.

 

Bottom line is this, if you are into beautiful colored rock (orange, pink, blue, puple, green, yellow coralines) with cool encrusted and non corals (sponges, porites, ricordea, etc.) and worms (feather dusters, bristle etc.) then I would say go with some of the Florida Aquaculturists, it is the most colorfull and alive rock you will get. If you want the Tonga "branch" or specific shapes of Fiji etc., and basically just want white and some purple rocks that have the benificial filtrating life and no others, I would say go to your LFS or most online dealers. I may be wrong, and there may be online dealers selling rock that comes as full of life as the Florida rock you would get. I would hope that people who buy rock online post pictures of what they actually receive so everyone can be informed of the qualities out there. You can hear from someone that the rock is great, but who is the judge of "great", people should see exactly what is being shipped by these places and then be able to decide.

 

So come one come all and post the rock you bought online.

[cmv]

That would be great, as long as the drive is not that long that would be a good deal at that price.  What I am saying is ths, the link you listed http://www.harboraquatics.com/Merchant2/me...ategory_Code=LR shows at the bottom a picture that says "this is what good live rock should look like" and they are correct the rock should have all the natural growth that you see on it.  the funny thing is, under it it says "This piece of live rock has been grown out in our show tank for about 8 weeks.

You'll soon have grow out like this as well but not if you kill off most of the life by curing it improperly."  and when yours never ends up looking like that rock and you call them they will say "well, you must not have cured it properly and it died", not, what you receive is basically what you get.  You may get some macro's grow back but nothing as the "advertising" would lead you to believe.

The way I read that page is that they say "but not if you kill off most of the life by curing it improperly" not to cover their ass but as part of the little retort they are making to the importers that claim most companies selling cured rock aren't actually do so. Their retort is silly because, after all, the other guy is saying "most" not "all" so I don't know why they are even bothering to reply to that besides attempting to look good. Their whole selling point is that their rock is already cured.

Above it has a picture of the "cured fiji live rock", notice the difference?  It does still look like it has some life (and it is an advertisement picture) but it doesn't look like the picture that says "this is what good live rock should look like".  I hope you get rock like that, that would be great

The reason the rock in the pictures above doesn't look like the rock in their ad down below is because the ad rock is 8 weeks old while the rock above is, presumably, not. I don't know how old the rock is that they sell but it sounds like the 8 week rock is an example of the eventual possibilty so the rock they sell must be less than 8 weeks in their tank.

So would I, until you take it out of the tank, put it in a hefty bag, throw it in your trunk with a major temp change and drive home, then lay it out on your living room floor at a different temp again, without water on it, while more  stuff dies, as you decide which piece should go where in the tank.

I understand your point but, in my opinion, it is overstated. The rock is not as delicate as a fish. Moving around rock in a tank or pulling it out and plunking it into another tank on the floor, which is full of water too, isn't going to kill it right off.

That would be the case, the problem is you don't get the cycle because the rock is mostly dead by this point (taken from reef with die off before being cured in indonesia, then taken out again and shipped to USA to then be re-cured from the second huge amount of die off, to then be pulled out and shipped again to then be re-cured in final destination tank from third round of die off).  The point I was trying to make is if it is a "NEW" tank, who cares about the cycle of the rock, there is no fish or coral that you purchased in the tank that may die as a result, so I would much rather go through a "cycle" with fresh rock full of macro algea, encrusting corals & coraline then no cycle with dead, blah looking rock with no life but some coraline and some benificial bacteria (hey, if it didn't have at least the bacteria and a little color you may as well buy the white dry dead stuff and seed that).

Well one of the benefits with Harbors approach is that less should die because they are curing it in a larger system which won't experience the type of massive die off typical in home curing. Some people have the philosophy that you should push the curing process at home so that everything does die off by putting in extra food or chunks of shrimp. Others believe that you should try to cause the least amount of death. I lean towards the second approach. It would be nice to know more about Harbor's approach to see if it actually meshes with what I understand.

Why does no one ever understand this, I mean, everyone is always in a rush and wants to stock the tank the day after they put the rock in the tank.  I would not suggest putting a bunch of this Florida rock in a semi-established tank because of the risk of killing your existing lifeforms due to the die off from the rocks die offs.

Did I write something that gave you the impression that I was thinking along those lines? I don't, keeping Discus made me a patient person. I see the act of taking life out of the ocean and putting it into a little tank, for my own personal enjoyment, as something that isn't exactly ideal. To kill off that life due to lack of education or impatience would be horrible. I'm not a member of PETA, I don't go to church, but I do see nature as a spritual thing. BTW, I'm not reading into what you wrote as a reply to me but more of a reply to the general trend. I'm not taking offense--I'm agreeing with you.

Actually my point is getting it with the shortest shipping distance and with the least amount of middle men and multiple cycles and die offs.  I never said geting rock from another tank is best, just the opposite, the best would be to live along side a reef and to have it out of water for only a few minutes then throw it into your tank (and very few of us have it like that.  I only wish).  I buy from the LFS for convenience but I must admit the rock sucks, yes, it is cured Fiji rock but not the way nature intended it to look, this stuff is crap.  I did not have a cycle in my last tank set up because there was no die off and it had the proper amount of bacteria, not because it is cured, because there is no life on it but the bacteria and a little coraline, not one invert, coral, or macro algea.

I understand your point now. Another point here is that maybe some places call live rock "live" because it has bacteria and it is cycled while others call it live rock because it has other life in it. Many of the mailorder live rock pages on the net seem to use this definition as "live rock" is just rock with bacteria while "deco rock" is the higher grade with more life. Every site seems a bit different so it is hard to make a direct comparision.

Hope you have a SEALED container or you will have one smelly wet vehicle.

Good point--rubbermaid containers have lids but they are flimsy. Maybe I'll make a shelf around the inside of the container about 4"-6" down from the top that extends in towards the middle of the container to stop the water from sloshing out. That lip with the lid and plenty of heavy duty garbage bags should work. I'll have to think about this.

I am also curious where you are going to plug in the heater and the air pump in your car.

Either a power inverter or 12v equipment. The power inverter may not be able to handle the amps that a heater requires. I have the benefit of having an electrical engineer for a father so I'll figure something out (he built his own coiled wire heater for his aquarium so he'll have some pointers if I go 12v). The air pump doesn't have nearly the same amount of draw so no worries there...

Also, if you are going to spend as much on gas as to ship it, you had better have what you say you are going to ship it with, because if it is that far of a drive without it, it will basically be "un-cured" by the time you get it in your tank.

I'd use ~ 15 gallons of gas roundtrip--not as much as I originally thought. Sorry about giving the wrong impression there... If it was indeed much further, I would be more worried. I do have the option of stopping 1 hour from the store (half way home) at my parent's place.

Bottom line is this, if you are into beautiful colored rock (orange, pink, blue, puple, green, yellow coralines) with cool encrusted and non corals (sponges, porites, ricordea, etc.) and worms (feather dusters, bristle etc.) then I would say go with some of the Florida Aquaculturists, it is the most colorfull and alive rock you will get.  If you want the Tonga "branch" or specific shapes of Fiji etc., and basically just want white and some purple rocks that have the benificial filtrating life and no others, I would say go to your LFS or most online dealers.  I may be wrong, and there may be online dealers selling rock that comes as full of life as the Florida rock you would get.

Personally, I'm interested in the rock with the most life on it (not bacteria, but other marine life).

I would hope that people who buy rock online post pictures of what they actually receive so everyone can be informed of the qualities out there.  You can hear from someone that the rock is great, but who is the judge of "great", people should see exactly what is being shipped by these places and then be able to decide.

This is a problem with everything of course but I understand where you are coming from. I don't know if you are familiar with usenet but the group rec.acquaria.marine.reefs is a wonderful independent resource. Here is a search, using Google Groups (an archiver of usenet), on Harbor Aquatics that has tons of viewpoints and feedback:

 

google search on Harbor Aquatics

So come one come all and post the rock you bought online.

Good idea. It would be wonderful to have a good rehash of all the experiences people on this board have had with ordering live rock from online supppliers. I'm actually going to Chicago for a couple weeks so maybe I'll take the hour long trip down to Harbor Aquatics, with my digicam, and report back. Not to buy but to take a look at what exactly they have.

 

edit: They also have this link over to a post on reefs.org (another forum) with one guys shipment of 100 pounds of live rock:

 

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12309

 

I'm loading that up right now to take a look (dang 56k modem )

[Temecula Reefer]

OK.... those posts were waaaay to long for me to read the whole thing Hope you get some good live rock..... I am going to pick some up tomorrow( if it looks good) from exoticfish.com,( I really just want to go and ooh and ahh over what I could have)... I live about 1 1/2 hours away and I am taking a cooler to transport it home... should this be ok? I think it will minimize die off, but I am not going to use a heater or air pump..... your opinions are appreciated!!!!

[cmv]

Yeah, we got way way way too long there! Now we have too much information, like the tower of babble, we'll have to let it collapse.

 

A cooler sounds like an excellent idea. If you lined the coolers with heavy duty plastic bags, you could put those hand warmers that the shippers use inside between the cooler and the bag to keep things warm. Those warmers are avaliable at sports shops and places like Walmart. ExoticFish should have some on hand too. I might just go the same way with my rock instead of getting fancy.

 

Will you post your reviews of the rock from ExoticFish?

[Temecula Reefer]

CMV-Great idea with the hand warmers, it is supposed to be in the 70's tomorrow(love So Cal weather) so nothing should get to cold but I'll see if they have em...... and I will post a review and hopefully pics of my new rock(crossing fingers) I have been waiting for months to get everything set up right and it is finally time!

[LiQuiD]

I am not going to even get into another long post on this thread but some things I do have to reply about.

 

The reason the rock in the pictures above doesn't look like the rock in their ad down below is because the ad rock is 8 weeks old while the rock above is, presumably, not. I don't know how old the rock is that they sell but it sounds like the 8 week rock is an example of the eventual possibilty so the rock they sell must be less than 8 weeks in their tank.

 

The live rock in the ocean is hundreds of years old. Bottom line is tons of die off occured and the rock is now bare not that the rock isn't quite 8 weeks old yet. Usually die off means "DIE" off, not just most of the visible parts fell off and the roots are still there and will grow back. Yes sometimes some macro and such will come back, but die off is die off and dead is dead there is no coming back from dead. They sell you rock with tons of die off for you to hope something grows back or was ever on it to begin with.

 

I understand your point but, in my opinion, it is overstated. The rock is not as delicate as a fish. Moving around rock in a tank or pulling it out and plunking it into another tank on the floor, which is full of water too, isn't going to kill it right off.

 

I never said it would. I never said moving rock inside the tank would kill it, nor did I say taking it out and putting it right into another tank would be harmfull. I believe I mentioned from the starting points in indonesia etc. baking in the sun out of water for hours at a time. And, some life on rocks are more delicate then fish, you can keep some fish out of water for 10 or more minutes and they will be just fine after placing them back in the water, try that with most species of sponge, some will dye from being exposed to the air for a few SECONDS, trust me, I am right on this one.

 

Well one of the benefits with Harbors approach is that less should die because they are curing it in a larger system which won't experience the type of massive die off typical in home curing.

 

The massive die off does not occur at home or in their systems for that matter. What no one seems to understand is the die off doesn't occur while "curing" in a tank and causing ammonia spikes. The die off had already occured in the long transport and or time out of water, it is like putting something dead in your tank and waiting for the nitrogen cycle to break down the decaying matter. The life is not all on it and when you put it in your tank the die off occurs, it is allready dead, I mean why would it have lived through all that stress to just die when you put it in some nice clean water. "Curing" just means the dead is being consumed and will soon be no more, the rock is now clean of the dead matter. The point to this is to get LR that doesn't get a chance to have as much die off before receiving it.

 

Did I write something that gave you the impression that I was thinking along those lines?

 

No, you did not, nor the thread starter, I did mean others out there.

 

I understand your point now. Another point here is that maybe some places call live rock "live" because it has bacteria and it is cycled while others call it live rock because it has other life in it. Many of the mailorder live rock pages on the net seem to use this definition as "live rock" is just rock with bacteria while "deco rock" is the higher grade with more life. Every site seems a bit different so it is hard to make a direct comparision.

 

This is an excellent point, thank god someone noticed this. Yes, live rock in the hobby is of course for the biological filtration and of course for the look of a reef but yes the main thing is the proper life on it to keep our little bio containment systems happy and filtered by giving the wonderful little bacteria that should come with it plenty of surface area to house enough to make the system work. But of course the hobby isn't just to keep things alive, it is for viewing pleasure and the more things to look at the better. It is not so much the coral has died off of the rock received from indonesia it is that they have basically in most areas stripped the top layer off the reef off already and are now down to lower levels were the life has not grown back fully yet. The "Deco" rock is just better quality top level rock with nice stuff on it. You CAN get this in the mail, looking exactly like the picture of the "what good live rock should look like". PS, when you go to harbor, ask them if since it is the same rock in there display tank to just sell you that rock for the same low price and I bet they come up with a ton of excuses not to sell the pretty stuff in the display tanks and if they do I bet it will be for more money. Or tell them you are willing to pay less for un-cured rock with all the life still on it when they first get the shipment in before they cure it and the die off occurs, they will not know what to say since it almost always comes in looking bare and dead as the stuff they are selling as cured. Cheaper rock for base and deco on top makes for a nice tank.

[LiQuiD]

Funny, I started the last post with "I am not going to get into another long post":D I just get carried away sometimes.

[~_~]

Originally posted by Temecula Reefer

OK.... those posts were waaaay to long for me to read the whole thing   Hope you get some good live rock..... I am going to pick some up tomorrow( if it looks good) from exoticfish.com,( I really just want to go and ooh and ahh over what I could have)... I live about 1 1/2 hours away and I am taking a cooler to transport it home... should this be ok? I think it will minimize die off, but I am not going to use a heater or air pump..... your opinions are appreciated!!!!

 

Let us know how the exoticfish liverock is.

I live about 20mins from them, and was thinking of *maybe* getting my rock from them.

[Tanstaafl]

Originally posted by LiQuiD

The "Deco" rock is just better quality top level rock with nice stuff on it.  You CAN get this in the mail, looking exactly like the picture of the "what good live rock should look like".  PS, when you go to harbor, ask them if since it is the same rock in there display tank to just sell you that rock for the same low price and I bet they come up with a ton of excuses not to sell the pretty stuff in the display tanks and if they do I bet it will be for more money.  Or tell them you are willing to pay less for un-cured rock with all the life still on it when they first get the shipment in before they cure it and the die off occurs, they will not know what to say since it almost always comes in looking bare and dead as the stuff they are selling as cured.  Cheaper rock for base and deco on top makes for a nice tank.

 

Not to drag this on forever or sound like I represent Harbor Aquatics, but I have heard several stories by different people who go there and get excellent rock with all kinds of stuff growing on the rocks. They even mention that they are allowed to go back into the curing tank rooms and pick out whatever they want and whatever shape they want all at the same price($4.00/lbs). I even heard one say that they put critters in there curing tanks to get rid of some of the unwanted hitchikers like apasia and mantis shrimp. I almost got some there myself, but impatience got the best of me as they said they couldn't deliver until after Jan. 6th so I ordered from Palmetto reefs instead, of which I'm still waiting:( .

 

as for un-cured rock, most places that offer uncured rock usually charge more since it has all the life on it still. you think it would be less since it doesn't have to go through the "curing" processes, but with the extra life I guess they figure they will sell it for extra money. unless of course you mean their rock before they put it in their tanks to cure. Then they would probably still want same price??

[Satchmo]

Damn, did I start this? Didn't mean for it to turn into a liverock debate. My point was merely to say that people who say that there is flat out no such thing as cured rock are getting hung up on the semantics of the whole thing. There's pros and cons to both "cured" and "uncured" rock. I'm opting for cured because I don't have the room to set up a curing-tub, or a girlfriend that would put up with the stink. Not because I want to plop rock in my tank and start stocking.

 

I do agree that the aquacultured rock coming from the Carribean is very nice. I've used rock from Gulf-View, and they have a fine product and second-to-none costomer service. However, I prefer the lower density of Fiji rock for both aesthetics and better denitrification.