Deep-water nano

[skylsdale]

(This might actually belong in the Advanced Forum...I didn't see there was one until after I posted.)

 

I am currently piecing together my setup and thought I would share what I'm planning, and also ask your opinions regarding my plans for flow. I've been researching such a setup for quite a few months now, and had planned a much larger setup, but figured I would try it out on a smaller scale to see how things go.

 

The main tank is a 20H. Lighting consists of two NO bulbs: 20W actinic and 15W 20K. This helps give the affect of a location a little further down the reef slope. I'm looking into some deep-water LR that is packed full of life, which will give me plenty of little organisms that I want. I'll have around 20 lbs. of this in the main tank, and use some base rock to fill in any gaps. Aquascaping will consist of a slope coming down one side, forming a valley in the middle, and then ascending up the next side. There will hopefully be an overhang in there somewhere. The LR will extend out of the water and beyond the field of view, giving the impression that the slope continues upward, rather than peaking just beneath the surface. There will be about an inch or two of Pure Caribbean Aragonite as substrate. The fish will be a pair or trio of Fathead anthias. Other livestock will be a blood/fire shrimp. I'm not going with the traditional low light corals that you usually see, like mushrooms. My goal is to pack the tank full of life that dominates the reef slope, such as sponges, tunicates, bivalves, etc. I want the tank crawling with these organisms. Any corals that I put in the tank will be researched carefully, and I may try something like Nemenzophyllia, Lobophyllia, or Scolymia. I would prefer more of a monospecific stand of something rather than 15 different species packed into the tank, but we'll see how things progress.

 

The main tank will be plumbed to a Sterilite tub(which is around 18 gal). There will be 1-2" of sand in here(no DSB in the system), and the rest will be LR, most likely base rock with some in there to seed it with crytpic organisms. The primary reason for the refugium is to provide a large population of pods to help supplement the anthias' diet. I also would like to get plenty of sponges, tunicates, and various other filter feeders established in here as well. I won't be using macros or caluerpa of any kind in this system. The uptake of DOM will be up to the cryptic organisms(similar to some of Steve Tyree's methods that some of you may be familiar with.) Water changes will be carried out, and occasional harvesting of the cryptic organisms to remove DOM from the system that has been locked up in their biomass. The refugium will not be lit. It will be gravity fed, and the lip of the refugium will only be a couple inches above the lid of the tank. This brings me to my question on flow.

 

I plan on using Minijets for the tank, but have never used them before so I don't know what to expect. I will use one to pump water to the refugium, and water will then be gravity fed back to the main tank. The lines(based on the outlet of the pump) will be 1/2" hose, which is fine since I won't have a ton of water pumping through the system. The refugium also doesn't require all that much flow, so I'm thinking this will be ok. As for the main tank, I don't need a ton of current, but a decent amount would be nice. I am thinking of using another Minijet for this, but I realized that there are two different models: the 404 and 606. I am leaning toward the 404 and figured I could always max it out if I needed more flow. Do any of you have suggestions for this?

 

Well, I think that's about it. Any comments or suggestions you have are appreciated.

[Twins Guy]

you packed a lot into that post, geez. sounds like you've done a lot of research too, good to see. i'll reserve my comments for the questions you posed. the minijets are solid lil powerheads. their outlet is a lil smaller than 1/2" but you can make it work. i'm assuming you'll be putting bulkheads in the refugium for return flow (make sure they're big enough to handle the flow, i'd say roughly double the size of the input, or use two output bulkheads and combine them with a T). this will prevent flooding issues and may eliminate problems caused by wandering snails, etc. unless you're getting a deal on the 404s (my LFS sells em out of store-use IO salt buckets for $6) go for the 606s. both have adjustable flow (roughly 404= 40-105, 606= 60-150gph). and in my experience these PHs run pretty cool (not overheating the tank). hope that answered some questions, let me know if there's anything else i can help with.

[flaunt]

sounds like a pretty interesting tank you have planned... post some pictures as you progress if you can! what do you plan to feed the tank to facilitate the growth of the sponges and other cryptic organisms? i would suggest feeding live phytoplankton in relatively heavy amounts since you're going for the organisms that most readily use it. have you researched the amount of current in the deep reef waters? i'm not sure what they are, but i've always read that sponges do best with a good amount of current. that might be something to get clear on before deciding what kind of powerheads to get. also, have you considered any non-photosynthetic gorgonians as possible tank inhabitants? just a thought. good choice of tank size (20-high), btw.

 

good luck!

[flaunt]

also, take a look at this post by Dave ESPI, these are really tiny powerheads that apparently pack a pretty big punch. i haven't used them but Dave swears by them. http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...=&threadid=5234

 

FWIW, i use a micro-jet 450 in my 10g which is really small, provides more than enough flow, and runs super-silent. the ones ESPI suggests i think are even smaller, and they have a 360-degree adjustable output nozzle which is nifty, but the same flow rate.

[tinyreef]

i'm going the same way. just got my drilled 15H from my lfs. i'm going for more of a scaled down reef cliff/bommie system with some significant water dynamics just as you also note.

 

the lighting is the only question i have. i'm going 4x30w vho and haven't really decided on bulb layout (how many/what actinic-day-50/50's). the NO's you're using seemed to be one of the mixes i've been thinking about but that still seems pretty dim to me.

[skylsdale]

Thanks flaunt. Actually, I've done quite a bit of research into the organisms of this tank and their requirements. Actually, cryptic sponges prefer little to no current--there are others from exposed zones on the reef flat that do appreciate high flow and light, but these are also some of the toxic species that have given most sponges a bad name in this hobby. Steve Tyree's book The Porifer: Living Sponges is a great read if you're interested in them and their filtering capabilities, as well we his book on tunicates(sea squirts). They feed on a variety of things, and phtyo is one of them. I plan on dumping quite a bit of food into this system--most likely a mix of stuff(such as Eric Borneman's coral food recipe, etc.) Different species prefer different particle sizes, etc. so I will change it up quite a bit.

 

I don't currently plan on adding any nonphotosynthetic gorgs to the system, primarily because I think a much larger system is needed to provide the food and nutrition required for them to thrive. Current actually varies along the slope, and can be heavily influenced by the tides. Some report that the flow is quite laminar, but like I said, it's all based on the specific terrain and specs of that specific environment. I was actually planning on using a 30 gal tank for this, and do a sort of ebb and flow with opposing powerheads, but I had a bowing problem with the glass in that tank which forced me to use the 20H. Given it's such a small space, I think a couple laminar currents in the tank will do pretty well, which is probably what small caves and overhangs are subject to in the wild.

 

Twins guy, thanks for the info. THe specs I read on the 404's said they had a 1/2" output, so I've been basing everything on that. I planned on using 1/2" vinyl tubing with hose clamps and bulkheads drilled into the Sterilite tub. So would you suggest using a 1" bulkhead for the return flow to the main tank? Or if I stick with the 1/2", to use two? Just claryfing so I know what you're suggesting.

 

The reason I was thinking the 404's is because I didn't want to blast water through the tube into the refugium--I'm not quite sure how much flow I want in there yet, but probably not a whole lot. I guess I could always power down the 606's. I was planning on ordering them from Marine Depot since they had the best deal(I live in a vortex when it comes to reefkeeping supplies, so unfortunately mail-order is the way to go around here.)

 

Keep the suggestions coming! And I'll try to post pics as things progress: right now I'm saving up a little to get some reall good quality deepwater LR.

[skylsdale]

flaunt, I'm checking out that thread to those PH's you gave me the link for. They sound perfect...but a little unreliable(rusty, etc.) I'm not so sure if they are recommended for salt use? I'll finish the thread and see what I think of them.

 

tinyreef, it really depends on what you're trying to achieve. I'm actually hoping for a fairly dim environment on the reef slope--and the 15W 20k bulb I have actually makes the tank brighter than I would actually like. IMO, 4x30W VHO's is going to be really bright over that 15 gal tank. However, I'm not going for coral-growing intensity with my system, and you might be. Depending on what you want, I would suggest 3 actinic tubes and one 50/50 or 20k(although I don't think URI makes this tube...) Scott Michael suggests this sort of ratio with deepwater tanks, and I initially thought it would turn out to "black lightish"...but I actually wish I had another actinic over the tank.

[tinyreef]

actually i wish i could go a little more over mine. i was thinking a half and half mix of actinics and daysuns but it looks so purplish. :| yeah, i'm always going for a photo growth system. i'm mainly a softie grower and i like the colts on a cliff look.

 

is the 20K just for viewing purposes then? why not switch that also to actinic (as you mentioned) and just get a smaller daylight bulb for viewing and source point lighting? since it's not a photo-dependent system you could even opt for a small halogen light to mimic sunlight. it would give you a powerful pointsource of light and approxmiately the right color rendition too. (waterproof issues ??? )

[skylsdale]

Too powerful. I would like another actinic in addition to what I have, and I think that would give me what I'm looking for. Pure actinic just a weird look to it, so I want some sort of daylight in there. I could try a point source, but this would still probably end up more powerful than I want.

 

For yours, I would just go with a half and half mix of actinic and daylight if you're not concerned about depth.

[lil reef]

Hey skylsdale, I just checked the MiniJet 404 box that I have and you can dial it down to 18 gph. The MJ is what I have pumping to my refugium in my 7 gal. Great little pump. Your tank ideas sound awesome!! Be sure to post some pics when you get it done. I think we are all really intrigued to see it.

[Dave ESPI]

I think this belongs in the advanced forum

You sir are correct.

lemme look fer a link I had (errrr article writen by a freeky dude named Dave or something) Ive played with this concept fer a year now... its a pain in the wrasse. ! Up date in a sec.

[Twins Guy]

hey skyllet-

i think lil reef might be right. i've been buying these black market minijets so long that i don't have actual specs anymore. i think the high end numbers i gave you are about right but both models can be dialed down even more than i previously remembered. 18 sounds like ball park for the 404 and my guess (FWIW) is the 606 goes down to 30ish. as far as output diameter, i'm pretty sure if you put 1/2" ID hose on there its gonna be loose and floppy, but nothing a cable tie or hose clamp (stainless or plastic of course) can't fix. for the return bulkheads i might consider using two, even two 1 inchers cause its gonna eliminate the chance for some snail or deviant cryptic critter to rain on your parade (and dresser and hardwood floors, and the downstairs, all the while emptying your tank). plus it halves the return flow through either one making it less likely for things to get "sucked" back into the main tank, if that makes sense.??? sounds like a sweet setup, have fun, and let us know your experiences, pioneer?

[skylsdale]

Dave ESPI, I've picked at every resource out there I that I could fine for around the last 8 months now. Let me know if you find that article you were referring to. There are a variety of different ways to go about a system like this, but it depends on what your focus is(i.e. types of corals, organisms, etc.) The original plan was for a 110X gal tank, but I figured since I had some empty tanks laying around, I should do a test run first.

 

My goal is simply to have this tank teeming with life, and not necessarily blazing corals all over the place, but micro-fauna galore. I want it infested with stuff. So it's going to be a somewhat drawn out process and periods of building different aspects of the system and inhabitants.

 

Twins, my Aquatic Eco-Systems, Inc. catalog lists the Minijet 404 at 13-108 gph and the 606 at 79-153 gph. By the way, I highly suggest ordering one of their Fish Room catalogs--you may not order from it, but it's PACKED full of dang cool equipment(they supply all sorts of aquaculture places as well...)

[Twins Guy]

and maybe it would help me get my information straight!X)

[Twins Guy]

that was easy...

http://www.aquaticecosystems.com

[Trag]

Sump Media: Go to New Products then "Macro Media"

 

http://www.carib-sea.com/Carib1.htm

 

Its prolly unessary and can use something way cheaper, I just found it interesting that they offer such a product

 

Im sure you've been to this site:

http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/

 

I suggest getting his books and/or CD Rom, they are packed with info on what you are trying to do (You prolly have them or read them already)

He also sells packages to seed the crypt

 

Im gonna be trying a cryptic fuge soon...

For phun more then anything...but it could work...

[tinyreef]

trag,

i don't know if you've read adey & loveland's book Dynamic Aquaria but it's very useful for understanding such systems. i haven't read tyree's yet but i plan to.

 

if you get true premium LR (uncured and fresh, not dying) that could be just as good or better imo for seeding a cryptic refuge or diverse biotope. altho i've never used tyree's stuff, i would guess that it may be more 'turnkey' and 'safe' tho.

[Trag]

TinyReef,

No I havent read that book, but sounds good, I'll try to get my hands on it

 

I agree, if you get live rock (the type you spoke of) it will have cryptic fauna on it

Even cured live rock sometimes has sponges on it...

 

But if you dont have any cryptic zones (no light, very low flow) in the tank (most dont), that fauna wont last long

If you have a sump/refugium with such conditions life will eventually find it or you can seed it

 

A LFS store near me has a Reef Tank over 10 years old

In the stand under the tank, is a large sump for the tank. I once opened the stand to see what kind of equipment they were running

I was amazed by the fauna living down their. One section of the sump away from the pumps (low flow) had a huge colony of worms, sponges and various other really interestig stuff. I would guess that sump has been in the total dark for as long as the tank has been setup (10 years or longer)

 

I dont know about running a system totally based on this, but I think it really enhance a nice system

[printerdown01]

Check out Whiterat's nano pictures in the beginner forum. He has some killer rock for a cryptic zone ( ...in a well lit nano -no comment). But if you are still looking for a cryptic rock supplier, it might be possible that he may have a supplier's name!

[skylsdale]

Sorry for not checking back in everyone...let me see if I can help update and answer some questions.

 

First of all, regarding Steve Tyree (www.dynamicecomorphology.com). I actually have his book on sponges which I read in preparation for this type of tank. I would like to get my hands on the Ascidian/Sea Squirt book as well, just haven't thought of ordering it. He is currently doing research for the 3rd book in that series, which will be on bi-valves/mulluscs. I have actually contacted Steve and gotten some info from him early on when I was planning this tank on a much larger scale(and he used to occasionally frequent Aqualink's skimmerless forum, where his Environmental Gradient system was discussed quite a bit.) His research has led him to believe that the best benefits and results come from having all 3 major zones contained in the same tank: the exposed(brightly lit, lots of flow), the filter feeding(consists of filter feeders that take out the larger particulate matter that's in the water column), and finally the cryptic(sponges and various tunicates which filter out the finer particles and dissolved organic matter). He set the tank up so you view the exposed zone through the side end of the tank. Beyond that was a wall of LR and a sheet of acrylic which provided a filter feeding wall before the water entered the cryptic zone with barely any flow, but a perfect environment for the cryptic organisms. This isn't a traditional way of setting up a reef tank, but he was blown away by how well it has worked. Anyway, before I get too off track...yeah, I have heard of Steve Tyree.

 

He sells seeding packages for people interested in establishing cryptic zones in their tanks. They now contain aquacultured sponges, tunicates, and bi-valves. I was particularly interested in having a lot of bivalves(these guys are terrific filter feeders) and he was even going to put together a package of them for me. I would highly suggest researching this if any of you are interested. Also, some of you have mentioned that you know people who have plenty of cryptic organisms in their sumps and tanks. This is a GREAT resource--as long as you know how to handle sponges and transport them(e.g. they absolutely CANNOT be exposed to air...)

 

I thought I had mentioned this in my original post, but evidently I didn't. When I do decide to set this tank up, my primary source of LR will be from Darren at www.palmettoreefs.com. He has some of the nicest deepwater LR I have ever seen--even he seems to be impressed with it! It is deepwater Kaeleni from Fiji and it is packed FULL of life(check the photos on the website.) Getting LR that already has this much deep-water life on it puts you a few steps ahead of the game.

 

Now keep in mind, my goal is a "deep-water" tank, not a "low-light" tank. And yes, in my mind, there is a difference. Many people will pack a tank with zoos and shrooms and have very little light over it and think it is a deep-water tank. There is a difference between keeping organisms that can tolerate low-light conditions and organisms that actually dominate deep-water environments. That's why my emphasis is on things like sponges, tunicates, foraminiforans, etc. Deeper areas of the reef slope are covered with these organisms. My goal is to recreate this environment, not just keep some things that can survive inadequate lighting.

 

Let me know if you have any more questions. Like I said, I've been researching this type of tank for almost a year now, so I have plenty of info if anyone is interested.