70W MH in stock Nano Cube!!

[Bobbozr2]

What were your fan speeds/voltages set at with the above readings?

 

6v for hood fans and 7.5v for rear scroll?

[artarmon42]

6V for the light chamber fans

7.5V for the top exhaust fans

7.5V for the rear scroll fan

 

Today, I'm going to be get the ambient up to 82 and see how the system handles it.

 

Tomorrow I'm going to play with increasing the scroll fan voltage.

Objective is to see if that'll minimize the temperature variance.

It should increase the evaporation/top-off but being that the fan is only on with the MH, I'm thinking that will be acceptable.

[artarmon42]

Originally posted by artarmon42

Today, I'm going to be get the ambient up to 82 and see how the system handles it.  

 

Today's results:

* Ambient Temp: 71.1 to 82.3 (11.2 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 81.7 (2.3 variance)

 

As I was home to monitor the data collection, I noticed the following:

1) I have previously said that the first 4-5 hours of my photo period has direct sunlight shining on the back of my tank. During that time, the scroll fan is blowing (much) hotter air into the tank. My thermometer showed that the ambient temperature around the scroll fan's input air to be around 82-83.

2) During this 4-5 hour period, the tank temperatures increased almost linearly from 79.4 to 80.8. I attribute this "rapid" rise to be mainly caused by the right sunlight heating up the tank, and that the cooling effects of the rear vent/fan was significantly degraded due to the hotter input air.

3) The remaining 3-4 hours of the photo period (without the direct sunlight) the tank temperature only rose from 80.8 to 81.2. I believe that this is the "correct" increase when you consider the water heating effects of MH against the cooling effects of the rear vent/fan.

4) At the end of the normal photo period, the ambient was 81.5 and the tank had just clicked over from 81.0 to 81.2.

5) I let the photo period continue another hour to make sure the ambient reached 82. During this hour, the ambient reached 82 and the tank temperature peaked at 81.7 (just before the A/C kicked in). I attribute the 0.2 increase in tank temperature once again to the "normal" increase from the MH + rear vent/fan setup. Specifically, I believe that the tank temp increased because of the extended photo period, as opposed to the ambient temperature.

 

The final finding (that the final water temp was a result of the extended photo period and not the ambient temp) is not conclusive. My house is not a controlled environment, and so far I cannot get the ambient to reach 82 during a normal photo period. If I push out the photo period (i.e. start the photo period later, so that it ends when the house gets to 82) I will change the testing process, as I would shorten the initial period of diret sunlight which produces the most rapid temperature rise. Haven't figured out how to conduct this test appropriately... input appreciated!

[Bobbozr2]

That's some good data there art. I started my daytime photo period yesterday and I turned on the heat in my house to 80 degrees and also placed a space heater next to the tank to simulate a extreme heat situation. Unfortunately, about 5 or so hours into the test I had to abort it because I noticed the tank was leaking (it had nothing to do with the MH obviously but JBJ's poor production standards).

 

So, my LR is now sitting in a 5 gallon bucket with some of my tank water. My LS is in another with some tank water, and the remainder of my water is in a 5 gallon jug. I ran to Home Depot last night and I got some silicone and started sealing like a madman. I don't know where the leak was coming from (it was somewhere in the base) so I just sealed everything I could.

 

It never leaked for the past 1 1/2 months I had it but decided to leak all of a sudden. Good stuff.

[artarmon42]

Ouch that seriously sucks Bobbozr2!

 

But it's lucky you were home.

Where did you buy the tank from?

It's definitely a warranty claim as far as I'm concerned!

[Bobbozr2]

Alright, so I sealed it up. I did a freshwater test for leaks, and all seems well. I filled her back up so we'll see how it goes. I may give it another week before adding any cleanup crew just to make sure there are no further leaks.

 

As far as warranty goes, I bought it from aquariumplant.com. Since it's an internet thing, I just don't have the patience to deal with it right now. I took matters into my own hand and sealed it up as best as I could. I sealed up almost every possible seam just to be sure.

[lou52onu]

Bobbozr2

I had a leak in one of my tanks (I'm on NC #4 right now). My leak was coming from the back left corner of the tank. When I spoke to JBJ they said they've had several complaints about leaks coming from back in that area. NET - seal that up well!

[artarmon42]

Originally posted by Bobbozr2

As far as warranty goes, I bought it from aquariumplant.com. Since it's an internet thing, I just don't have the patience to deal with it right now. I took matters into my own hand and sealed it up as best as I could. I sealed up almost every possible seam just to be sure.

 

As long as it's something you can fix back to "as new" (i.e. buy and apply sealant yourself, as opposed to trying to patch up cracked glass), I think it's all good. I know what you mean about avoiding the hassle

[artarmon42]

Originally posted by artarmon42

Thursday:

* Ambient Temp: 70.3 to 80.8 (10.5 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 81.0 (1.6 variance)

 

Friday:

* Ambient Temp: 72.0 to 80.4 (8.4 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 81.0 (1.6 variance)

 

Originally posted by artarmon42

Tomorrow I'm going to play with increasing the scroll fan voltage.

Objective is to see if that'll minimize the temperature variance.

It should increase the evaporation/top-off but being that the fan is only on with the MH, I'm thinking that will be acceptable.

 

So for the heck of it, I increased the scroll fan voltage all the way to 12V. It was originally set to 7.5V, so I skipped one level (9V) and went all the way to max. The results:

* Ambient Temp: 70.1 to 80.4 (10.3 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 80.4 (1.0 variance)

 

The house A/C kicked in (as per normal at ~80), otherwise the ambient max would have been higher.

 

So it looks like with one scroll fan running at max, I can limit the temperature rise to 1 degree. To be honest, I am a little disappoint by the results

 

With the scroll fan located at the left rear vent, the majority of the air blows over chamber 1. My current thought is that either chamber 1 doesn't have enough surface area (for the "air/heat interchange") or that my Rio 90 in there is either generating too much heat or re-heating the water prior to circulation back into the main tank.

 

I will turn off the chase timer tonight and run the experiment again (with the scroll fan still set to 12V) for tomorrow's photo period.

[Chronicles]

Sorry to say, but those scroll fans you have, as fans...they suck.

[artarmon42]

Originally posted by Chronicles

Sorry to say, but those scroll fans you have, as fans...they suck.

 

Nice play of words!

 

Still, they do a good enough job keeping the MH heat down. I'm sure you remember the +1 degree per hour problem before I put in the vent/fan.

[Web Guy]

My RIO in chamber one hit temps higher than my maxi jets and even my stock pump. I think the rios do not like to be ran in such a small place. They work better in the tank and run cooler.

 

I did temp checks for 3 days with 3 different pumps in chamber 1. You could stick your hand in chamber 1 with the rio running and could feel the heat difference.

[artarmon42]

Good advice Web Guy.

I turned off the Rio and noticed that my tank was cooling down quicker (or it could be that a cold front has reached San Jose ).

 

I took the opportunity to install that cassette skimmer mod. Works great!

 

I put in an order of dry goods for my soon-to-arrive custom tank, and took the opportunity to get another Hydor Flo. That'll be my wave maker for this tank soon. I'm preparing this tank for it's eventual home for my Onyx pair.

 

Fingers crossed, we'll see how tomorrow's temperature measurements are without the Rio.

 

Oh I forgot to document that running the scroll fan at 12V, the top-off required about 1/3 of an ounce. Approximately three times the normal top off amount. That's (relatively) alot of top off, but it's only for this experiment and I'll be going back to my normal 7.5V after tomorrow (hopefully).

[artarmon42]

OK, today's test (12V, without Rio) is in!

 

To recap...

 

Thursday (normal configuration):

* Ambient Temp: 70.3 to 80.8 (10.5 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 81.0 (1.6 variance)

 

Friday (normal configuration):

* Ambient Temp: 72.0 to 80.4 (8.4 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 81.0 (1.6 variance)

 

Saturday (allowing for higher ambient):

* Ambient Temp: 71.1 to 82.3 (11.2 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 81.7 (2.3 variance)

 

Sunday (increased scroll fan to 12V):

* Ambient Temp: 70.1 to 80.4 (10.3 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 80.4 (1.0 variance)

 

Today (increased scroll fan to 12V and turned off Rio 90 in chamber 1):

* Ambient Temp: 69.2 to 80.4 (11.2 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 80.0 (0.6 variance)

 

0.6 degree variance over an 8 hour photo period! :woot: :teehee: :woot:

 

Looks like:

1) The scroll fan cooling does work pretty well (:ermm: :angel: ).

2) The Rio 90 puts out a crazy amount of heat!

 

I've returned the scroll fan setting back to 7.5V and will see how tomorrow's photo period stacks up.

[Tigahboy]

now that's exactly the kinda data I like to see. the proof is in the puddin'.

 

looks like this mod is really working out nicely for you. good job.

[Bobbozr2]

I think we're looking at this data all wrong. I believe we should be looking at the variance between the max ambient temp and the max tank temp. It's unfair to compare the variance from low to max ambient temp against the variance from low to max tank temp since it's the tank's heater and not the fans that control the low ambient to low tank range. That information should be dismissed. To get the real data, one should measure from a starting point of 79.4 (the tank's lowest temp at any given time due to the heater kicking on to maintain it at that minimal temp). We know that the fans will never cool the tank below 79.4 due to the heater. In fact, you should just compare the difference between the max ambient temp and the max tank temp to give you the best indication of the fans' effectiveness.

 

So, using the method I described we would get the following data:

 

Thursday (normal configuration):

* Ambient Temp Max: 80.8

* Water Temp Max: 81.0

Variance: +0.2 degrees

 

Friday (normal configuration):

* Ambient Temp Max: 80.4

* Water Temp Max: 81.0

Variance: +0.6 degrees

 

Saturday (allowing for higher ambient):

* Ambient Temp Max: 82.3

* Water Temp Max: 81.7

Variance: -0.6 degrees

 

Sunday (increased scroll fan to 12V):

* Ambient Temp Max: 80.4

* Water Temp Max: 80.4

Variance: 0 degrees

 

Monday (increased scroll fan to 12V and turned off Rio 90 in chamber 1):

* Ambient Temp Max: 80.4

* Water Temp: 80.0

Variance: -0.4 degrees

 

From comparing the data between Sunday and Monday, we can conclude that the Rio adds 0.4 degrees to the system since the max ambient on both days reached 80.4.

 

The real measurement of success at this point in the game would be to run the MH without the rear scroll fan for 12 hours and then with the scroll fan for another 12 hours (on two different days but at the exact time each day with the exact ambient max) and measure the difference between the two. This would give you the measurement of the true cooling power of the rear scroll fan. This could be done with varying scroll fan voltages as well.

 

I understand the risk to the livestock involved, so I'm not implying that you do this experiment. I could do the experiment since I don't have any livestock in my tank yet, but I need a thermometer to measure the min/max of my tank and ambient temps which I don't have at the moment.

 

From the data you collected, we can gather that the rear fan at least keeps the tank at or within 1 degree (+/-) from ambient if the ambient is around 80-82 or so degrees; and the rear fan prevents the MH from heating the tank beyond that.

 

It's still a successful mod in my opinion, granted that you can keep your ambient temps around that 80-82 degree maximum mark. I normally keep the house cooler than that in the summer so this mod is not a problem for me. If anyone cannot keep their ambient temps at that max then the ICA may be the way to go.

[artarmon42]

You've got a good point there.

 

But (like all good collaborative discussions), let me pose a different counter-point. Not saying who is right or wrong, just something else to think about.

 

We know that putting the MH into the hood heats the system 3 ways:

* Hood: Which primarily heats up the splashguard and circumstantially heats the air surrounding the hood from the dissipation through the stock top and side vents. Besides damage to the splashguard, a hot hood doesn't directly affect the water temp.

* Air-gap (between the splashguard and water surface): It's pretty evident (even by opening up the front flap), that this area has poor ventilation. Air is not a great heat conductor, but the hot splashguard will heat up this air and without sufficient ventilation, will eventually transfer heat to the water.

* Light spectrum hitting the water (Infra-red and UV): The light energy will convert to heat. Once the air-gap ventilation is present, this should be the largest source of heat (from the MH) to the water.

 

I think a better test would be to:

1) Open the front flap to eliminate the air-gap factor in the experiment.

2) Run the MH for 8 hours. 12 would be fine too, but we should simulate a normal photo period.

3) Test 1 should have the scroll fan on. If the temperature goes "too" low, the heater should be turned off to allow it to find a stable point.

4) Test 2 should have the scroll fan off. If the temperature goes "too" low, the heater should be turned off to allow it to find a stable point.

 

Assuming the conditions are the same, any temperature difference between Test 1 & 2 should show us the true cooling effects of the scroll fan.

 

As you say, this only validates the cooling power. For our purposes and circumstances, this mod is sufficient for our needs

 

 

Unfortunately I will not be able to do this test.

The next 2 days will be cold/raining in San Jose, and then this weekend I'm making changes in my tank (replacing the MJ606 to Maxi1200 & putting in the Hydor Flo).

 

BTW, what happened to that experiment you were running when you ran into the leak?

[artarmon42]

The results from today's run was inconclusive.

 

With the cold change here, the ambient only rose to 78.2 (below the tank's low of 79.4) Just for those curious, today's tank temps ranged from 79.4 to 79.6. Like I said, inconclusive

 

Tomorrow's going to be another cool day, so I doubt tomorrow's results will yield any relevant data either.

[Web Guy]

My RIO 200 ran hotter than my stock pump. I tested it for 2 days. I thought it might have been a fluke so my LFS gave me another one and I ran it again. Same temps and heat issue with that pump in a small chamber. I went to a mini jet for the 1st chamber after that and have been happy. Of course now that I am doing the surface skimmer mod myself I am installing Hydro Flo also mounted below the main outlet running off a seperate pump. I should have this done over the next 2 weeks. I will just drain the tank some to cut the hole for the HydroFlo. Will get some shots as I go!

[artarmon42]

I've been keeping my tank at the same temperature, mostly for the benefit of this experiment. With everything the same (and even using the same thermometer that I've previously said reads +1 higher), I don't have to re-establish any of the background or for easy comparison to past results.

 

In the Beginners Forum, MrAnderson posted this link which actually calls for higher temperatures. As I have the highest respect for Ron Shimek, I'll be increasing my "minimum" to 82. So it'll probably range between 81 (by the time the heater kicks in, but it'll be mostly 82 overnight) and 84 (at the end of the photo period). I'm going to make the change (slowly) this weekend, and my new custom tank will start with that temperature.

 

So I have a few more days to experiment, but as the forecast is 71 (today), 72 (Thursday) and 72 (Friday), I don't think we'll hit the correct ambient highs.

[artarmon42]

Once again, the weather has spoilt the experiment.

Ambient only got to 78.6.

[artarmon42]

While waiting to run my tests, I got bored and picked up some new corals

[artarmon42]

Results from today:

 

Friday (returned scroll fan to 7.5V but Rio 90 remained off):

* Ambient Temp: 72.7 to 80.6 (7.9 variance)

* Water Temp: 79.4 to 80.2 (0.8 variance)

 

A 0.8 variance over an 8 hour photo period is well within the target range of 2 degrees.

 

I will be making changes to the tank this weekend (increasing the heater threshold to have a hotter environment, replacing the MJ606 return put with a Maxi1200 and installing a Hydro Flo). That would effective eliminate further testing/results due to the marked difference from the original configuration.

 

In perspective, I doubt further testing is necessary as I think this mod has now been completely documented (build, test, and validate in normal and "summer" weathers).

 

With other folks doing similar 70W MH mods, I am happy to have been part of the Nano Cube evolution. Once more, kudos to ccjung for blazing the trail of MH inside a stock hood, Chronicles who figured out how to cool ths setup, and numerous others who in their own way contributed to the final configuration.

 

I'll stick around to answer questions, but there will not be any further updates on this thread.

 

Thanks for everyone's interest in this project!

[artarmon42]

I have now setup my custom nano and transferred everything from my Nano Cube.

 

I am now looking to sell my hood with all related ballasts and adapters. This is for everything in the picture, including 70W MH (Aqualine 20,000 K, ~3 months old), Aromat electronic ballast, 7W fuge light & 3 variable voltage adapters.

 

I'm asking for SOLD. Some people might realize that the components are worth more than my asking price :angel:

 

Due to the liability issues of incorrectly installed electrical equipment, I am selling this as a bundle of used parts. Some wire-nuts will be disconnected.

 

Please PM me if you are interested.

[rayhwong]

Sent you a PM!