Cycle Help

[Stamen]

Hello everyone,
I am new to marine aquarism and unfortunately have made quite a few mistakes in driving my nitrogen cycle. So if you'll allow me to explain what happened:
1. The tank is 150 gallons including the sump.
2. I added Caribsea Life Rock, ati fiji white sand and Black Sea stones, washed and disinfected several times.
3. Nitrifying bacteria DrTim's - ONE and ONLY
4. Ammonia for them - Waterlife SeAquariums BioMature 100ml - and here I was probably wrong the first time. The bottle is for 800 gallons, and I poured the entire amount in one week.
5. Salifert tests for Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite. Testing every day.
6. 2 times water change of 30% each.
Today is day 32 and the readings are as follows:
NH3 --- 0.15
NO3 >100
NO2 --- 4.0
Please advise, can I add fish, corals or at least CHAETOMORPHA SP ?
Thank you in advance !!!

[seabass]

6 hours ago, Stamen said:

NH3 --- 0.15
NO3 >100
NO2 --- 4.0

Free ammonia is still high for fish; ideally it should be 0.02ppm or less.  It should come down soon.

Nitrate is high due to the overdose of ammonia.  A large water change will reduce it by the amount changed (so a 50% water change should reduce it in half).

Nitrite is also high, but we normally don't worry about nitrite very much in a marine aquarium.

 

A large water change (with nitrate-free water) will reduce nitrate, ammonia, and nitrite.  I'd do that water change, if for no other reason, to reduce nitrate.  Ideally, nitrate should be less than 20ppm.

 

6 hours ago, Stamen said:

can I add fish, corals or at least CHAETOMORPHA SP ?

Chaeto shouldn't be bothered by these nitrogen numbers.  How's phosphate looking?  However, I'd probably try to get your parameters within recommended ranges before adding corals or fish.

[mcarroll]

11 hours ago, Stamen said:

3. Nitrifying bacteria DrTim's - ONE and ONLY
4. Ammonia for them - Waterlife SeAquariums BioMature 100ml - and here I was probably wrong the first time. The bottle is for 800 gallons, and I poured the entire amount in one week.

It seems worth pointing out that the Dr Tim's product doesn't recommend this fishless process.  Also, the ammonia product's instructions recommend a very different dosing approach.  If you can say, I'm curious what guide got you into this situation?  Had you considered other approaches?

 

11 hours ago, Stamen said:

Today is day 32 and the readings are as follows:
NH3 --- 0.15
NO3 >100
NO2 --- 4.0
Please advise, can I add fish, corals[...]

Ammonia measurement and assessment can be a bit confusing at first, especially since your test kit says "NO3" in giant letters on the front of the box...but your ammonia number is in ppm of NH4, or "total ammonia".

 

"Toxic ammonia" is NH3.   Both are relevant.

 

The difference between NH4 and NH3 relates to the pH and temperature of the water sample.  

 

You can get an NH4 -> NH3 conversion factor from a chart like this:

 

If you have the pH and temperature numbers, then re-do the math here, but if we assume the tank was "normal" at 78ºF and 7.8 pH, then you get a conversion factor of about .0370.

 

You reported NH3 of 0.15 ppm above.  Correct me if wrong, but for the moment I'll assume you meant the result from the testing card, which is ppm of NH4.

 

Again assuming the "normal" parameters I stated above, 0.15 ppm of NH4 * 0.0370 = .0056 ppm of NH3 (toxic ammonia).

 

I also think your AmmoAlert badge is correct (ie "Safe"), if I'm seeing the color correctly.

 

You still want to proceed slowly with stocking.  

 

Lowering Nitrate (NO3) down to the vicinity of 10 ppm would be a good thing.  Water change would be the easiest way.  

 

I would start stocking with a few small cleanup crew, and if you're already familiar with growing corals, you can also add a coral or two.   If not, consider a lights-out period until you're ready to add them.   (Assuming it's gonna be a reef tank.  Proceed with macro as described for coral if it's gonna be a macro tank.)

 

After at least a week, you can consider more CUC (if needed) and a couple more corals.

 

After at least another week you can consider a fish.  Wait at least a week for anything else to allow yourself time to monitor the fish uninterrupted while it adapts to your tank....and the tank adapts to the much higher nutrient load.   Waiting a few weeks before your next step wouldn't' be a bad idea.   Adding a couple more corals, or CUC if needed, would be the most allowable exceptions....though some temporary stability might be preferred to any new additions for the time being, while the fish de-stresses.

 

11 hours ago, Stamen said:

Ammonia for them - Waterlife SeAquariums BioMature 100ml - and here I was probably wrong the first time. The bottle is for 800 gallons, and I poured the entire amount in one week.

I'm curious if you measured ammonia after adding that much?  If so, what did it read?

 

Wondering because "too much" can slow down the cycle quite a bit.  

 

A tank will cycle the natural way in 30-40 days, so I'm wondering if your cycle seemed to be within that frame or not....and if any of the additives seem to have helped or hindered progress?

 

(Most of this info is also in the One and Only FAQ or elsewhere on the drtim's website/blog, for reference.  Also in most good reefing books if you haven't already picked up one or two.  Some suggestions.)

[seabass]

13 hours ago, mcarroll said:

your test kit says "NO3" in giant letters on the front of the box...but your ammonia number is in ppm of NH4, or "total ammonia".

I must have missed that.  Where does it say the results are for NH4?

[mcarroll]

I don't have one handy since I haven't tested ammonia lately, but I think it's clarified on the instruction sheet.

 

...based on some Googling for the instruction sheet it says something like "The values on the color chart are in mg/L total ammonia (that is NH3 + NH4+)."

 

I found another good reference that explains the NH3/NH4 testing thing really well, and in our context:

https://www.hach.com/parameters/ammonia

 

I guess the operative part of the idea for @Stamen is that the test result from the ammonia test kit needs the conversion factor from the chart if we want to back-compute NH3 in order to know the level of toxic ammonia.   And we want to know THAT because NH4 is relatively harmless and NH3 is fairly harmful.  We're predominantly worried about the NH3 part.  👍

 

[mcarroll]

Hm....

 

 

In spite of the NH3 vs NH4 on the front, I'm pretty sure these are both the same kit and that both are actually giving "total ammonia" as the test result.....but I wonder what the story is with the packaging???

 

Can anyone confirm that the color carl actually looks like this, specifically the "NH3 + NH4" part?

[Stamen]

11 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Струва си да се отбележи, че продуктът на д-р Тим не препоръчва този процес без риба. Освен това инструкциите на продукта с амоняк препоръчват много различен подход на дозиране. Ако можете да кажете, любопитен съм какво ръководство ви въведе в тази ситуация? Обмисляли ли сте други подходи?

 

Измерването и оценката на амоняка може да бъде малко объркващо в началото, особено след като вашият комплект за тестване казва "NO3" с огромни букви в предната част на кутията...но броят на амоняка ви е в ppm от NH4 или "общ амоняк" .

 

„Токсичен амоняк“ е NH3. И двете са уместни.

 

Разликата между NH4 и NH3 е свързана с pH и температурата на водната проба .  

 

Можете да получите коефициент на преобразуване на NH4 -> NH3 от диаграма като тази:

 

Ако имате стойностите на pH и температурата, направете отново математиката тук, но ако приемем, че резервоарът е бил „нормален“ при 78ºF и 7,8 pH, тогава получавате коефициент на преобразуване от около 0,0370.

 

Докладахте NH3 от 0,15 ppm по-горе. Поправете ме, ако греша, но за момента предполагам, че имате предвид резултата от тестовата карта, който е ppm от NH4 .

 

Отново приемайки "нормалните" параметри, посочени по-горе, 0,15 ppm NH4 * 0,0370 = 0,0056 ppm NH3 (токсичен амоняк).

 

Също така мисля, че вашата значка AmmoAlert е правилна (т.е. „Безопасна“), ако виждам цвета правилно.

 

Все още искате да продължите бавно със зарибяването.  

 

Намаляването на нитратите (NO3) до около 10 ppm би било добро нещо. Смяната на водата би била най-лесният начин.  

 

Бих започнал да се запасявам с няколко малки почистващи екипа и ако вече сте запознати с отглеждането на корали, можете също да добавите един или два корала. Ако не, помислете за период на изключване на осветлението, докато не сте готови да ги добавите. (Ако приемем, че ще бъде рифов резервоар. Продължете с макро, както е описано за корали, ако ще бъде макро резервоар.)

 

След поне една седмица можете да помислите за още CUC (ако е необходимо) и още няколко корала.

 

След поне още една седмица можете да помислите за риба. Изчакайте поне седмица за нещо друго, за да имате време да наблюдавате рибата без прекъсване, докато се адаптира към вашия аквариум... а аквариумът се адаптира към много по-високото натоварване с хранителни вещества. Изчакването на няколко седмици преди следващата ви стъпка не би било лоша идея. Добавянето на още няколко корала или CUC, ако е необходимо, би било най-допустимото изключение... въпреки че известна временна стабилност може да бъде предпочетена пред всякакви нови добавки за момента, докато рибата се освободи от стреса.

 

Интересно ми е дали сте измерили амоняка, след като сте добавили толкова много? Ако е така, какво пише?

 

Чудя се, защото "твърде много" може да забави цикъла доста.  

 

Резервоарът ще премине по естествен начин за 30-40 дни, така че се чудя дали вашият цикъл изглежда е в рамките на тази рамка или не....и дали някои от добавките изглежда са помогнали или попречили на напредъка?

 

(Повечето от тази информация е също така в One and Only FAQ или на друго място в уебсайта/блога на drtim, за справка. Също и в повечето добри книги за справка, ако още не сте взели една или две. Някои предложения   . )

1,5 ppm ammonia  after the addn. This reading is maintained for 20 days. Then I did two 30% water changes. The next day / 32 after starting the ammonia / I got the readings quoted above in the post. Greetings, have a good day and many smiles!!!

[Stamen]

12 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It seems worth pointing out that the Dr Tim's product doesn't recommend this fishless process.  Also, the ammonia product's instructions recommend a very different dosing approach.  If you can say, I'm curious what guide got you into this situation?  Had you considered other approaches?

 

Ammonia measurement and assessment can be a bit confusing at first, especially since your test kit says "NO3" in giant letters on the front of the box...but your ammonia number is in ppm of NH4, or "total ammonia".

 

"Toxic ammonia" is NH3.   Both are relevant.

 

The difference between NH4 and NH3 relates to the pH and temperature of the water sample.  

 

You can get an NH4 -> NH3 conversion factor from a chart like this:

 

If you have the pH and temperature numbers, then re-do the math here, but if we assume the tank was "normal" at 78ºF and 7.8 pH, then you get a conversion factor of about .0370.

 

You reported NH3 of 0.15 ppm above.  Correct me if wrong, but for the moment I'll assume you meant the result from the testing card, which is ppm of NH4.

 

Again assuming the "normal" parameters I stated above, 0.15 ppm of NH4 * 0.0370 = .0056 ppm of NH3 (toxic ammonia).

 

I also think your AmmoAlert badge is correct (ie "Safe"), if I'm seeing the color correctly.

 

You still want to proceed slowly with stocking.  

 

Lowering Nitrate (NO3) down to the vicinity of 10 ppm would be a good thing.  Water change would be the easiest way.  

 

I would start stocking with a few small cleanup crew, and if you're already familiar with growing corals, you can also add a coral or two.   If not, consider a lights-out period until you're ready to add them.   (Assuming it's gonna be a reef tank.  Proceed with macro as described for coral if it's gonna be a macro tank.)

 

After at least a week, you can consider more CUC (if needed) and a couple more corals.

 

After at least another week you can consider a fish.  Wait at least a week for anything else to allow yourself time to monitor the fish uninterrupted while it adapts to your tank....and the tank adapts to the much higher nutrient load.   Waiting a few weeks before your next step wouldn't' be a bad idea.   Adding a couple more corals, or CUC if needed, would be the most allowable exceptions....though some temporary stability might be preferred to any new additions for the time being, while the fish de-stresses.

 

I'm curious if you measured ammonia after adding that much?  If so, what did it read?

 

Wondering because "too much" can slow down the cycle quite a bit.  

 

A tank will cycle the natural way in 30-40 days, so I'm wondering if your cycle seemed to be within that frame or not....and if any of the additives seem to have helped or hindered progress?

 

(Most of this info is also in the One and Only FAQ or elsewhere on the drtim's website/blog, for reference.  Also in most good reefing books if you haven't already picked up one or two.  Some suggestions.)

Temperature 77 F /25 C/. Salinity SG 1025.
I don't have tests and can't measure pH.

[Stamen]

16 hours ago, seabass said:

Свободният амоняк все още е висок за рибата; в идеалния случай трябва да бъде 0,02 ppm или по-малко. Трябва да слезе скоро.

Нитратите са високи поради предозирането на амоняк. Голяма смяна на водата ще я намали с промененото количество (така че 50% смяна на вода трябва да я намали наполовина).

Нитритите също са високи, но обикновено не се тревожим много за нитритите в морски аквариум.

 

Голяма смяна на вода (с вода без нитрати) ще намали нитратите, амоняка и нитритите. Бих направил тази смяна на водата, ако не за друго, за да намаля нитратите. В идеалния случай нитратите трябва да са по-малко от 20 ppm.

 

Chaeto не трябва да се притеснява от тези азотни числа. Как изглежда фосфатът? Вероятно обаче ще се опитам да вкарам вашите параметри в препоръчаните диапазони, преди да добавя корали или риба.

I don't have phosphate tests and can't measure it. If necessary, I will buy, but finding equipment and materials in Bulgaria is very limited.

I've already done two 30% water changes. I don't have enough cans for a 50% change at a time or 75 gallons. I can often change 30%. I only use osmosis water, I haven't measured the parameters and, but the osmosis system is brand new.

[seabass]

15 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Hm....

 

 

In spite of the NH3 vs NH4 on the front, I'm pretty sure these are both the same kit and that both are actually giving "total ammonia" as the test result.....but I wonder what the story is with the packaging???

I've seen that both packages are currently being sold; so I'm confused too.  I guess that I just assumed the results from the NH3 kit basically reflected NH3, and the results from the NH4 kit basically reflected NH4, which is approximately total ammonia (NH3 + NH4) at typical reef pH levels.

 

I don't believe that both types of packaging have always been around.  So I guess in my head, I thought that they could have developed a new reagent for NH3, or that they might even be calculating NH3 from total ammonia (by making assumptions about pH).  But that doesn't make as much sense as just having confusing packaging.  So you're probably right, both likely reflect NH3 + NH4, as one might expect from this kind of test kit.

 

I wonder if they switched packaging and are selling them both until the older packaging sells out, or if they feel that they'll sell more units if they offer both forms of packaging.  However, I can't see how they would benefit from the confusion.  They should just state that their kit tests for NH3 + NH4 (which is total ammonia).

 

For anybody confused about ammonia, I have written the following article which might help:

https://www.nano-reef.com/articles/beginners/a-look-at-ammonia-r42/

 

[seabass]

14 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Can anyone confirm that the color chart actually looks like this, specifically the "NH3 + NH4" part?

Everything that I find online shows it this way.  Also, I found the following instructions:

Instructions:
1. Add with 5ml syringe 1 ml of water in the test vial.
2. Add 6 drops of NH3-1 (watch out caustic!) and swirl gently for 5 seconds.
3. Add 6 drops of NH3-2 (watch out contains Mercury salts, wash hands after use, keep
away from food, see additional warning under the heading WARNING). Swirl gently for 5
seconds and allow to stand for 5 minutes.
4. Hold the test vial and look through the side of the test vial. Keep the color chart behind
the test vial. Ensure that a white piece of the color chart is behind the liquid layer. The
values on the color chart are in mg/L total ammonia (that is NH3 + NH4+).

 

I feel that the last line clarifies it.  Despite which box you get, or the label on the reagent bottle, it looks like they are testing for total ammonia.  As long as you know what you are testing, this isn't a problem.

[mcarroll]

Mercury means Nessler's test for ammonia.  Interesting.  (Be mindful of their warnings!)

[seabass]

11 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Mercury means Nessler's test for ammonia.  Interesting.  (Be mindful of their warnings!)

For those interested, API's ammonia test kit is a mercury-free, salicylate test (and also tests for total ammonia).

[mcarroll]

From reading Hach's info on how ammonia tests work, it sounds like both tests (Nessler's and salicylate) spike pH, which would drive all the ammonia to be NH3.  (...which then reacts with the next chemistry phase in the test in order to make color.)

 

So maybe it's more accurate to call it an NH3 test?  

 

But...

 

It's also true that it's testing total ammonia, not just NH3.  The test result is not saying your tank had X ppm of NH3 in it.  

 

So calling it an NH3 kit is *also* confusing.   🤔🤷‍♂️

 

Calling it a "total ammonia" test kit just takes up too much box space I think. 😉😄

 

[seabass]

51 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

it sounds like both tests (Nessler's and salicylate) spike pH, which would drive all the ammonia to be NH3

Of course you're right.  And it's true that the reagent is testing for NH3 at the elevated pH level during the testing process (yielding the level of total ammonia in your tank, at the time of testing, whatever your tank's pH level).  And by knowing your tank's pH and temperature, you can compute the level of NH3 in your tank at that time.  That's what's appealing to using Seachem's Ammonia Alert and Seneye's Reef Monitor (you don't need to compute NH3).

 

But actually, knowing total ammonia tells you what you need, and there isn't an exact safe level of NH3 for everything (as it tends to vary per organism).

 

51 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Calling it a "total ammonia" test kit just takes up too much box space I think.

  I think they could find the room.  Plus, they could always call it a NH3 + NH4 test kit.  Actually, I'd probably just call it an Ammonia test kit and state that it's testing for NH3 + NH4 in the instructions and/or on the color chart.

 

Once again, we got a little off the point of the original post.  But still, it's nice to work this stuff out (and it should be of interest to most reef keepers).

[Stamen]

8 hours ago, seabass said:

Of course you're right.  And it's true that the reagent is testing for NH3 at the elevated pH level during the testing process (yielding the level of total ammonia in your tank, at the time of testing, whatever your tank's pH level).  And by knowing your tank's pH and temperature, you can compute the level of NH3 in your tank at that time.  That's what's appealing to using Seachem's Ammonia Alert and Seneye's Reef Monitor (you don't need to compute NH3).

 

But actually, knowing total ammonia tells you what you need, and there isn't an exact safe level of NH3 for everything (as it tends to vary per organism).

 

  I think they could find the room.  Plus, they could always call it a NH3 + NH4 test kit.  Actually, I'd probably just call it an Ammonia test kit and state that it's testing for NH3 + NH4 in the instructions and/or on the color chart.

 

Once again, we got a little off the point of the original post.  But still, it's nice to work this stuff out (and it should be of interest to most reef keepers).

 

Hello,
We're really a little off topic from my problem, but your topic is really interesting. According to me, the difference is not only in the box but also in its contents and the instructions for its use. My instructions are as follows:

 

 

1. With a 2 ml syringe, add 2 ml of water in the test vial.
2. Fill the 1 ml syringe with 1.00 ml NH3 reagent.
3. Add 0.5 ml to the test vial and swirl gently for 30 seconds.
4. Add the remaining 0.5 ml to the test vial and swirl gently for 30 seconds.
Allow to stand for 3 minutes.
Swirl the test vial gently for 5 seconds. Hold the test vial in front of you and look through the side of the test vial. Keep the color chart behind the test vial. Ensure that a white piece of the color chart is behind the liquid layer. The values on the color chart are in mg/L total ammonia.

 

 

There is only one reagent....

  I wish you a successful day!!!

 

 

[Stamen]

These are my readings from last night and I am really starting to despair that I will ever be able to grow saltwater fish and corals.....

[seabass]

You can wait out the ammonia and nitrite spikes, but typically nitrate needs another export mechanism (water change, uptake by photosynthetic life like algae or coral, denitrification, etc).  So we often lower nitrate by exporting it via water changes.  If you can't do a large enough one time water change, this can take awhile.  For example:

• 100ppm initial nitrate level
• 70ppm after 30% water change
• 49ppm after another 30% water change
• 34ppm after another 30% water change
• 24ppm after another 30% water change
• 17ppm after another 30% water change
• 12ppm after another 30% water change
• 8ppm after another 30% water change

That's seven 30% water changes amounting to more than twice the total volume of water.  It also assumes that no more nitrate will be produced (which is incorrect as there is still some ammonia and nitrite).

 

 

 

[Stamen]

Hi seabass,
I am very grateful for your help and assistance. This scheme seems quite wasteful in time and with a rather unclear result. But it's great that you implemented it, which leads me to think that it's easier to buy canisters for 50% /75 gallon/ water changes, and from what I understand at first it will be much more efficient and give much faster results results.
I will do this on Saturday. I will be getting the CHAETOMORPHA SP tomorrow along with the phosphate tests and I will be able to tell you that parameter as well, is there anything else I need to measure right now /alkalinity, pH or other/. And if it is convenient to ask --- Is it necessary to buy some biomedia that helps to remove nitrates and what it is / does such an approach make sense or is it superfluous /.

Good day everyone !!!

[Stamen]

On 7/4/2023 at 9:18 PM, mcarroll said:

It seems worth pointing out that the Dr Tim's product doesn't recommend this fishless process.  Also, the ammonia product's instructions recommend a very different dosing approach.  If you can say, I'm curious what guide got you into this situation?  Had you considered other approaches?

 

Ammonia measurement and assessment can be a bit confusing at first, especially since your test kit says "NO3" in giant letters on the front of the box...but your ammonia number is in ppm of NH4, or "total ammonia".

 

"Toxic ammonia" is NH3.   Both are relevant.

 

The difference between NH4 and NH3 relates to the pH and temperature of the water sample.  

 

You can get an NH4 -> NH3 conversion factor from a chart like this:

 

If you have the pH and temperature numbers, then re-do the math here, but if we assume the tank was "normal" at 78ºF and 7.8 pH, then you get a conversion factor of about .0370.

 

You reported NH3 of 0.15 ppm above.  Correct me if wrong, but for the moment I'll assume you meant the result from the testing card, which is ppm of NH4.

 

Again assuming the "normal" parameters I stated above, 0.15 ppm of NH4 * 0.0370 = .0056 ppm of NH3 (toxic ammonia).

 

I also think your AmmoAlert badge is correct (ie "Safe"), if I'm seeing the color correctly.

 

You still want to proceed slowly with stocking.  

 

Lowering Nitrate (NO3) down to the vicinity of 10 ppm would be a good thing.  Water change would be the easiest way.  

 

I would start stocking with a few small cleanup crew, and if you're already familiar with growing corals, you can also add a coral or two.   If not, consider a lights-out period until you're ready to add them.   (Assuming it's gonna be a reef tank.  Proceed with macro as described for coral if it's gonna be a macro tank.)

 

After at least a week, you can consider more CUC (if needed) and a couple more corals.

 

After at least another week you can consider a fish.  Wait at least a week for anything else to allow yourself time to monitor the fish uninterrupted while it adapts to your tank....and the tank adapts to the much higher nutrient load.   Waiting a few weeks before your next step wouldn't' be a bad idea.   Adding a couple more corals, or CUC if needed, would be the most allowable exceptions....though some temporary stability might be preferred to any new additions for the time being, while the fish de-stresses.

 

I'm curious if you measured ammonia after adding that much?  If so, what did it read?

 

Wondering because "too much" can slow down the cycle quite a bit.  

 

A tank will cycle the natural way in 30-40 days, so I'm wondering if your cycle seemed to be within that frame or not....and if any of the additives seem to have helped or hindered progress?

 

(Most of this info is also in the One and Only FAQ or elsewhere on the drtim's website/blog, for reference.  Also in most good reefing books if you haven't already picked up one or two.  Some suggestions.)

 

On 4.07.2023 г. at 21:18, mcarroll said:

Струва си да се отбележи, че продуктът на д-р Тим не препоръчва този процес без риба. Освен това инструкциите на продукта с амоняк препоръчват много различен подход на дозиране. Ако можете да кажете, любопитен съм какво ръководство ви въведе в тази ситуация? Обмисляли ли сте други подходи?

 

Измерването и оценката на амоняка може да бъде малко объркващо в началото, особено след като вашият комплект за тестване казва "NO3" с огромни букви в предната част на кутията...но броят на амоняка ви е в ppm от NH4 или "общ амоняк" .

 

„Токсичен амоняк“ е NH3. И двете са уместни.

 

Разликата между NH4 и NH3 е свързана с pH и температурата на водната проба .  

 

Можете да получите коефициент на преобразуване на NH4 -> NH3 от диаграма като тази:

 

Ако имате стойностите на pH и температурата, направете отново математиката тук, но ако приемем, че резервоарът е бил „нормален“ при 78ºF и 7,8 pH, тогава получавате коефициент на преобразуване от около 0,0370.

 

Докладахте NH3 от 0,15 ppm по-горе. Поправете ме, ако греша, но за момента предполагам, че имате предвид резултата от тестовата карта, който е ppm от NH4 .

 

Отново приемайки "нормалните" параметри, посочени по-горе, 0,15 ppm NH4 * 0,0370 = 0,0056 ppm NH3 (токсичен амоняк).

 

Също така мисля, че вашата значка AmmoAlert е правилна (т.е. „Безопасна“), ако виждам цвета правилно.

 

Все още искате да продължите бавно със зарибяването.  

 

Намаляването на нитратите (NO3) до около 10 ppm би било добро нещо. Смяната на водата би била най-лесният начин.  

 

Бих започнал да се запасявам с няколко малки почистващи екипа и ако вече сте запознати с отглеждането на корали, можете също да добавите един или два корала. Ако не, помислете за период на изключване на осветлението, докато не сте готови да ги добавите. (Ако приемем, че ще бъде рифов резервоар. Продължете с макро, както е описано за корали, ако ще бъде макро резервоар.)

 

След поне една седмица можете да помислите за още CUC (ако е необходимо) и още няколко корала.

 

След поне още една седмица можете да помислите за риба. Изчакайте поне седмица за нещо друго, за да имате време да наблюдавате рибата без прекъсване, докато се адаптира към вашия аквариум... а аквариумът се адаптира към много по-високото натоварване с хранителни вещества. Изчакването на няколко седмици преди следващата ви стъпка не би било лоша идея. Добавянето на още няколко корала или CUC, ако е необходимо, би било най-допустимото изключение... въпреки че известна временна стабилност може да бъде предпочетена пред всякакви нови добавки за момента, докато рибата се освободи от стреса.

 

Интересно ми е дали сте измерили амоняка, след като сте добавили толкова много? Ако е така, какво пише?

 

Чудя се, защото "твърде много" може да забави цикъла доста.  

 

Резервоарът ще премине по естествен начин за 30-40 дни, така че се чудя дали вашият цикъл изглежда е в рамките на тази рамка или не....и дали някои от добавките изглежда са помогнали или попречили на напредъка?

 

(Повечето от тази информация е също така в One and Only FAQ или на друго място в уебсайта/блога на drtim, за справка. Също и в повечето добри книги за справка, ако още не сте взели една или две. Някои предложения   . )

 

On 7/4/2023 at 9:18 PM, mcarroll said:

It seems worth pointing out that the Dr Tim's product doesn't recommend this fishless process.  Also, the ammonia product's instructions recommend a very different dosing approach.  If you can say, I'm curious what guide got you into this situation?  Had you considered other approaches?

 

Ammonia measurement and assessment can be a bit confusing at first, especially since your test kit says "NO3" in giant letters on the front of the box...but your ammonia number is in ppm of NH4, or "total ammonia".

 

"Toxic ammonia" is NH3.   Both are relevant.

 

The difference between NH4 and NH3 relates to the pH and temperature of the water sample.  

 

You can get an NH4 -> NH3 conversion factor from a chart like this:

 

If you have the pH and temperature numbers, then re-do the math here, but if we assume the tank was "normal" at 78ºF and 7.8 pH, then you get a conversion factor of about .0370.

 

You reported NH3 of 0.15 ppm above.  Correct me if wrong, but for the moment I'll assume you meant the result from the testing card, which is ppm of NH4.

 

Again assuming the "normal" parameters I stated above, 0.15 ppm of NH4 * 0.0370 = .0056 ppm of NH3 (toxic ammonia).

 

I also think your AmmoAlert badge is correct (ie "Safe"), if I'm seeing the color correctly.

 

You still want to proceed slowly with stocking.  

 

Lowering Nitrate (NO3) down to the vicinity of 10 ppm would be a good thing.  Water change would be the easiest way.  

 

I would start stocking with a few small cleanup crew, and if you're already familiar with growing corals, you can also add a coral or two.   If not, consider a lights-out period until you're ready to add them.   (Assuming it's gonna be a reef tank.  Proceed with macro as described for coral if it's gonna be a macro tank.)

 

After at least a week, you can consider more CUC (if needed) and a couple more corals.

 

After at least another week you can consider a fish.  Wait at least a week for anything else to allow yourself time to monitor the fish uninterrupted while it adapts to your tank....and the tank adapts to the much higher nutrient load.   Waiting a few weeks before your next step wouldn't' be a bad idea.   Adding a couple more corals, or CUC if needed, would be the most allowable exceptions....though some temporary stability might be preferred to any new additions for the time being, while the fish de-stresses.

 

I'm curious if you measured ammonia after adding that much?  If so, what did it read?

 

Wondering because "too much" can slow down the cycle quite a bit.  

 

A tank will cycle the natural way in 30-40 days, so I'm wondering if your cycle seemed to be within that frame or not....and if any of the additives seem to have helped or hindered progress?

 

(Most of this info is also in the One and Only FAQ or elsewhere on the drtim's website/blog, for reference.  Also in most good reefing books if you haven't already picked up one or two.  Some suggestions.)

Hi mcarroll,
You said so many things related to science that it took me 3-4 days to process them. I am now beginning to understand what you were trying to tell me at the beginning and I will act on your recommendations. The recipe of Dr. Tim for me as a beginner seemed quite easy to follow and the enthusiasm that covers every beginner reefer really made me underestimate the advice that Mr. Tim gave. Well, I was clearly wrong in most things, but that's how one learns - from one's mistakes. The table you attached is great, but if possible, could you recommend a pH Test / Company, brand / that can measure pH with approximate accuracy. I will add CHAETOMORPHA SP on Saturday and if needed some bio media but I don't know which one will work for me. Otherwise, I don't have any fish or corals in the aquarium, just rocks and sand. The lighting is not turned on at all until now. All kinds of algae started to form on the stones - green, brown and kelp / at least those are the colors I can see without lighting / How good or bad this is, I'm still in the field to find out in the future.
I am very grateful for your help and assistance.
I wish you a successful day!!!

[seabass]

1 hour ago, Stamen said:

I will be getting the CHAETOMORPHA SP tomorrow along with the phosphate tests and I will be able to tell you that parameter as well, is there anything else I need to measure right now /alkalinity, pH or other/.

While establishing the cycle, we are primarily interested in ammonia and nitrate.  Nitrite is another indicator, but is of little interest/value after the cycle has been established.

 

After the cycle has been established, we focus on inorganic nutrients (that is phosphate and nitrate, which are vital for photosynthetic life).  For example, without phosphate, your chaeto won't be able to grow (neither will corals).  So not only do we attempt to keep excess nutrients in check, but we must also make sure that there are enough for the photosynthetic life that we intend to keep.  A number of people use chaeto to help export excess inorganic nutrients, but sometimes chaeto struggles in a new tank.

 

With the addition of stony coral, we start to focus on alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium.  We try to maintain stability of these important elements within the recommended ranges.  In general, newly mixed saltwater is within these ranges.  And since you don't want water changes to dramatically change these parameters, I generally recommend trying to stabilize the parameters to match a newly mixed batch of saltwater.

 

For awhile, partial water changes will be enough to maintain stability of these parameters.  But while water changes help replenish consumed elements, they will also export inorganic nutrients from the water.  And eventually, you will need to replenish consumed elements via dosing.

 

Testing pH is fine; but we typically don't try to adjust its value, so most of us don't even bother to test it (unless we are doing something which might affect its value, like dosing Kalkwasser).  Read my article on testing:  https://www.nano-reef.com/articles/beginners/water-parameters-what-to-test-and-when-r40/

 

1 hour ago, Stamen said:

Is it necessary to buy some biomedia that helps to remove nitrates and what it is / does such an approach make sense or is it superfluous /.

I don't feel that additional bio-media will be needed.  They do make bio-bricks which claim to support denitrifying bacteria.  I think they do what they say they will.  However, despite the overdose of ammonia and resulting nitrate spike, I'm not expecting an ongoing nitrate problem (especially if you are maintaining a chaeto refugium).  Again, the goal isn't to remove all of the inorganic nutrients, it's to maintain a healthy level to support your photosynthetic corals.

[Stamen]

15 minutes ago, seabass said:

Докато установяваме цикъла, ние се интересуваме предимно от амоняка и нитрата. Нитритът е друг индикатор, но не представлява голям интерес/стойност след установяване на цикъла.

 

След като цикълът е установен, ние се фокусираме върху неорганичните хранителни вещества (това са фосфат и нитрат, които са жизненоважни за фотосинтетичния живот). Например, без фосфат вашето чаето няма да може да расте (нито коралите). Така че не само се опитваме да държим излишните хранителни вещества под контрол, но също така трябва да сме сигурни, че има достатъчно за фотосинтетичния живот, който възнамеряваме да запазим. Редица  хора използват chaeto, за да помогнат за изнасянето на излишните неорганични хранителни вещества, но понякога chaeto се бори в нов резервоар.

 

С добавянето на каменисти корали започваме да се фокусираме върху алкалността, калция и магнезия. Опитваме се да поддържаме стабилността на тези важни елементи в препоръчителните граници. Като цяло новосмесената солена вода е в тези диапазони. И тъй като не искате промените на водата да променят драстично тези параметри, обикновено препоръчвам да се опитате да стабилизирате параметрите, за да съответстват на току-що смесена партида солена вода.

 

За известно време ще са достатъчни частични смени на водата, за да се поддържа стабилност на тези параметри. Но докато промените на водата помагат за попълване на консумираните елементи, те също ще изнасят неорганични хранителни вещества от водата. И в крайна сметка ще трябва да попълните консумираните елементи чрез дозиране.

 

Тестването на pH е добре; но ние обикновено не се опитваме да коригираме стойността му, така че повечето от нас дори не си правят труда да го тестват (освен ако не правим нещо, което може да повлияе на стойността му, като дозиране на Kalkwasser). Прочетете статията ми за тестване:   https://www.nano-reef.com/articles/beginners/water-parameters-what-to-test-and-when-r40/

 

Те наистина правят био-тухли, които твърдят, че поддържат денитрифициращи бактерии. Мисля, че правят това, което казват, че ще направят. Въпреки това, въпреки предозирането на амоняк и произтичащия скок на нитратите, не очаквам продължаващ проблем с нитратите (особено ако поддържате chaeto refugium). Отново, целта не е да премахнете всички неорганични хранителни вещества, а да поддържате здравословно ниво, за да поддържате вашите фотосинтезиращи корали.

 

[Stamen]

Yes.
I understand you completely!
Sorry if I was annoying, thank you again.
Now I know what to do!!!

 

I will write about the achieved results!

Greetings!

[seabass]

4 hours ago, Stamen said:

Sorry if I was annoying, thank you again.

You're welcome.  You weren't annoying; we all had to learn sometime.  I still have things to learn.  Good luck; and keep reading and asking questions.

[Stamen]

On 7.07.2023 г. at 13:48, seabass said:

Моля. Не беше досаден; всички трябваше да се научим някога. Все още има какво да уча. Късмет; и продължавайте да четете и да задавате въпроси.

Hello again,
I want to express my sincere thanks for the advice about the 50% water change. I did and it all worked out like magic. If I may ask:
1. I have placed 3-4 LPS corals, they are very happy for 10 days now / and so am I / but can you explain to me how to dose calcium, magnesium, alkalinity and what brands of products to use.
I have ordered tests for these items and will be able to tell you tomorrow what the readings are.