Tank Struggles

[BOSN'MATE]

So I’ve had a IM 20 peninsula for about 18 months. I up-graded from a IM 10 that was very successful. This IM20 has been a struggle from day 1. Nothing seems to be growing at all except the birds nest. (1st photo) it’s grown pretty consistently for the last 8 months or so. The Bubble Tip Anemone has split a number of times now but they always seems to stay very small and compact. 
The are 3 fish (clown, Royal Gramma, Azure Damsel) a few snails and hermits. Zoa were thriving, but most just kind of melted away over about a 3 weeks period. Now they are all very small. GSP is never fully open. Duncan closed and never opened again, Glaxia seems fine. some Gonipora was fine for a few month then faded. Something is off. There wasn’t a period where everything started to decline…more of a tank that just has something off, and I am running out of ideas. 
I use RO/DI Aquatic Life RO Buddie and normally change 5 gals a week using Tropic Marine Pro reef with an ATO.
last testing was:

phosphate.05

salinity 1.025

dkh 8.6

mag 1320

PH 8.4

temp 78

AI Nero 3 wave maker.

2 AI prime 16s 

run rox8 carbon and floss, 

 

Feed frozen Spirulina Mysis and TDO Chroma BOOST.

I’m almost to the point where I break it down and start over with new sand/rock, but I don’t want to end up in the same place.

 

maybe switch back to cichlids…😕

 

 

 

 

 

[MLS_Reef]

By no means am I an expert but did you double up on the number of light fixtures? IM10 handles 1 AI prime 16 well. You said above that you have 2 now, that may be alot of light, If your Birdsnest is rocking and everything else is suffering it may be too much light. I have a landen aquarium the front box is about the same size as your 20 peninsula. I still only use 1 Ai prime at 12" With settings similar to yours, I bleached my cyphaestrea and had to move them to the corners of the tank. all my lps are still on the bottom of the tank and not stretching out.

 

Anemones sometimes split when they are stressed. However i'm thinking they may split if light is an unlimited resource as well.

[BOSN'MATE]

2 hours ago, MLS_Reef said:

By no means am I an expert but did you double up on the number of light fixtures? IM10 handles 1 AI prime 16 well. You said above that you have 2 now, that may be alot of light, If your Birdsnest is rocking and everything else is suffering it may be too much light. I have a landen aquarium the front box is about the same size as your 20 peninsula. I still only use 1 Ai prime at 12" With settings similar to yours, I bleached my cyphaestrea and had to move them to the corners of the tank. all my lps are still on the bottom of the tank and not stretching out.

 

Amenomes sometimes split when they are stressed. However i'm thinking they may split if light is an unlimited resource as well.

That’s what I’m thinking too. I’ve dropped it down about 20% from what is shown above just prior to this post so I’ll give it a month and see what happens. Thanks for the reply. 

[mcarroll]

6 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

phosphate.05

Seems a little on the low side....especially for the coral/anemone population you're trying to keep.  They don't like clean tanks in general – the anemones in particular have a high demand for dissolved nutrients.

 

Does this number for PO4 go up and down?  What are the highs and lows you typically see?  I would not like to see PO4 any lower than this.  Higher would be good.

 

What ppm do you get for nitrates?

 

5 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

dkh 8.6

What is this if you test RIGHT BEFORE a water change?

 

Ditto for RIGHT AFTER a water change?

 

Two reasons for asking.  

 

One is that swings are bad in general, so just wondering about stability.  

 

The other is that I thought TM Pro Reef had a lower alk than that...about 7 dKH, maybe less?   What do you get if you test a fresh mixed batch of saltwater?

 

Are you dosing anything to get the number in your test?  Seems high for that salt.  

 

If you AREN'T dosing, something isn't quite right.  

 

If you ARE dosing, then the water changes themselves might actually be causing alkalinity swings.

 

5 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

AI Nero 3 wave maker.

Is that enough to create strong flow in the tank?  Does food settle to the bottom pretty quickly?

 

5 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

2 AI prime 16s 

Any idea how much light (in lux or PAR, either one) the tank is getting at the water line?  Might be worth a check.  Good excuse to get a light meter if you don't have one.  👍  For the moment you can try a free lux meter app on your smartphone.

 

6 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

run rox8 carbon and floss,

Seems like these are probably extra.  Consider seeing how the system does without them....nutrients might pick up a little and allow things to grow a bit more...and tolerate high light better.

 

 

👍

 

 

[TheKleinReef]

13 hours ago, MLS_Reef said:

that may be alot of light

 

I agree with this.

by advice i tell everyone when trouble shooting is change things one and at time and wait 1-2 weeks to see if the change had an effect. That way you know what impact you're having on the system.

 

Everything else looks good IMO, number wise.

I did lose faith in TM Pro after the whole turkey situation crashed my tank, but that was like 2 years ago so i doubt it's the issue.

[SLA10]

I would recommend checking your actual par readings, and based on that possibly running less hours on your lights.  If you were running fine at 10g, 20g shouldn't be any problem for you.  But your just guessing at light levels, I would put a par meter on it, check out all your zones, and dial in your lights, then maybe cut back on hours you run lights.

[BOSN'MATE]

14 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Seems a little on the low side....especially for the coral/anemone population you're trying to keep.  They don't like clean tanks in general – the anemones in particular have a high demand for dissolved nutrients.

 

Does this number for PO4 go up and down?  What are the highs and lows you typically see?  I would not like to see PO4 any lower than this.  Higher would be good.

 

What ppm do you get for nitrates?

 

What is this if you test RIGHT BEFORE a water change?

 

Ditto for RIGHT AFTER a water change?

 

Two reasons for asking.  

 

One is that swings are bad in general, so just wondering about stability.  

 

The other is that I thought TM Pro Reef had a lower alk than that...about 7 dKH, maybe less?   What do you get if you test a fresh mixed batch of saltwater?

 

Are you dosing anything to get the number in your test?  Seems high for that salt.  

 

If you AREN'T dosing, something isn't quite right.  

 

If you ARE dosing, then the water changes themselves might actually be causing alkalinity swings.

 

Is that enough to create strong flow in the tank?  Does food settle to the bottom pretty quickly?

 

Any idea how much light (in lux or PAR, either one) the tank is getting at the water line?  Might be worth a check.  Good excuse to get a light meter if you don't have one.  👍  For the moment you can try a free lux meter app on your smartphone.

 

Seems like these are probably extra.  Consider seeing how the system does without them....nutrients might pick up a little and allow things to grow a bit more...and tolerate high light better.

 

 

👍

 

 

My PO4 stays there pretty consistently. Don’t check nitrates, they always show as zero on the API test. It stays the same before and after water changes. 
fresh mixed is 7.6 dkh. I add Reef carbonate to get it up over 8.5

The Nero 3 is actually turned down. My PO4 would be higher I think, if food was settling. I used the lux meter on my phone and par was 300 at the surface 80-100 near the bottom.

[BOSN'MATE]

5 hours ago, TheKleinReef said:

 

I agree with this.

by advice i tell everyone when trouble shooting is change things one and at time and wait 1-2 weeks to see if the change had an effect. That way you know what impact you're having on the system.

 

Everything else looks good IMO, number wise.

I did lose faith in TM Pro after the whole turkey situation crashed my tank, but that was like 2 years ago so i doubt it's the issue.

I do the same. Only change 1 thing at a time. Just tested lights with the lux meter app and so turned them down a bit. 
I noticed a few zoa in a shadow area seemed much bigger. 

[mcarroll]

3 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

My PO4 stays there pretty consistently. Don’t check nitrates, they always show as zero on the API test.

These are basic fuel components for coral photosynthesis and growth.  

 

If you don't find anything else to blame for the lackluster coral growth, this could be it.

 

If your lights are more intense than needed, they would exacerbate this fact....increasing demand for a non-existent (or very low) supply.

 

3 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

fresh mixed is 7.6 dkh. I add Reef carbonate to get it up over 8.5

 

Hopefully you mean that adjustment is being made while you mix up your saltwater?

 

How low does the tank's dKH get right before a water change?

 

3 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

The Nero 3 is actually turned down. My PO4 would be higher I think, if food was settling.

Looking at food was mostly supposed to be an indication of whether your flow is good enough.  I'm not sure you'd see low flow reflected in the dissolved nutrient test numbers....there's a lot of demand for phosphate.  

 

So next time you feed, pay special attention to the food's drift rate and how quickly/slowly food starts to hit the rocks or substrate.  Flake food might be easier to watch if your primary food is hard to track visually.

 

Corals require strong flow due to their mucus boundary layer.

 

(By Dana Riddle, from: https://reefs.com/magazine/how-to-grow-corals-quicker-part-ii-combined-effects-of-water-velocity-and-alkalinity-concentrations/)

 

So, low flow is ANOTHER thing that will exacerbate a low-nutrient situation....in combination with lighting conditions.

 

Corals need flow in order to deliver nutrients, breathe, etc.  

 

Good flow would be like being outside in the woods for us – no restrictions.  

 

Low flow would be like us trying to breath and eat (and "everything else too") through a coffee straw.

 

3 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

I used the lux meter on my phone and par was 300 at the surface 80-100 near the bottom.

What app gave you PAR units?  Or did you make a lux:PAR conversion?

 

Sounds like >15,000 lux which isn't really all that bright, though there is room to lower it.

 

Based on the other evidence, I'm not convinced the light is your issue.  I think light levels are just one component in the mix.

 

If you want to not mess with your lights, I think you can compensate by increasing flow and nutrient levels a bit.

 

It's possible that even after lowering your lights that you will still want to increase nutrient levels a little bit.

 

[mcarroll]

Also, any chance you can post a full tank shot with daylight instead of blue light?  Wondering how grown in your rockwork is.

[MLS_Reef]

22 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

That’s what I’m thinking too. I’ve dropped it down about 20% from what is shown above just prior to this post so I’ll give it a month and see what happens. Thanks for the reply. 

BRS has an Ai prime test on youtube, you should check it out. i just watched it last week. They cover the lights intensity and coverage fairly well. They also talk about how the light intensity is amplified if your lights are close together vs. farther apart. Looking back at your photo I can't tell how close they are or what height they are mounted at for the height of the tank. 

[TheKleinReef]

Careful with mccarroll advice. 
he likes to suggest stuff that doesn’t need changing. Just take it slow. 

[empresto]

Honestly, if Nitrates are zero, as you say, this is the main issue.  No nitrates = unhappy/dead coral.  PO4 and NO3 need to be present for coral photosynthesis.  @mcarroll is spot on with what he's questioning in your setup.

[Koleswrath]

1 hour ago, empresto said:

Honestly, if Nitrates are zero, as you say, this is the main issue.  No nitrates = unhappy/dead coral.  PO4 and NO3 need to be present for coral photosynthesis.  @mcarroll is spot on with what he's questioning in your setup.

Not necessarily. If your food input is enough to supply the Nitrogen needs of the tank inhabitants without a buildup of leftovers you’ll read zero on an API kit. I doubt it would show even 1 or 2 ppm. 10ppm Nitrate is a great buffer but we can’t blanket statement and say zero will kill your corals.

[TheKleinReef]

1 hour ago, empresto said:

@mcarroll is spot on with what he's questioning in your setup.

nope

 

20 minutes ago, Koleswrath said:

Not necessarily. If your food input is enough to supply the Nitrogen needs of the tank inhabitants without a buildup of leftovers you’ll read zero

this

 

You can have healthy corals with the correct balance of nutrient input and export. look at the success of ULNS's like zeovit.

 

You're just as likely to have a healthy tank with 0 measureable nitrate and a good feeding regimen as you are with a system that has 1-50.

heck, i've seen gorgeous tanks with both 0ppm and 100ppm lol

[Lebowski_]

I am wondering if it might be advantageous to:

 

1. Move the Nero 3 right behind the Bird's Nest (or move the Bird's Nest to the other side). The outside magnet can be placed underwater, so you can mount it on the sump wall. Yes, I know that this would mean both flow sources are side by side, but I think it would be less of an issue with a pump that strong. You could probably run a very strong Pulse due to the length of the tank. The SPS won't mind at all.

 

2. If you have 2 Prime AIs, perhaps the one over the Bird's Nest could be kept at the current setting but the other one lowers in intensity (no change to timing or spectrum). 

 

 

One other possibility, and this one is a hail mary, but I might run some high quality carbon just in case one of the Zoa's is releasing or released palytoxin due to being pissed off about the move. EDIT - oh I see you are running carbon. Hmm, scratch that.

 

 

[BOSN'MATE]

On 5/9/2023 at 7:37 PM, MLS_Reef said:

BRS has an Ai prime test on youtube, you should check it out. i just watched it last week. They cover the lights intensity and coverage fairly well. They also talk about how the light intensity is amplified if your lights are close together vs. farther apart. Looking back at your photo I can't tell how close they are or what height they are mounted at for the height of the tank. 

They are about 8” off the water and 10” apart. I’ve turned the lights down and will wait about a month before I change anything else

[BOSN'MATE]

On 5/10/2023 at 1:17 PM, Koleswrath said:

Not necessarily. If your food input is enough to supply the Nitrogen needs of the tank inhabitants without a buildup of leftovers you’ll read zero on an API kit. I doubt it would show even 1 or 2 ppm. 10ppm Nitrate is a great buffer but we can’t blanket statement and say zero will kill your corals.

It just shows as zero cause of the API. Maybe I’ll get a Hanna. 

[BOSN'MATE]

On 5/10/2023 at 2:15 PM, Lebowski_ said:

I am wondering if it might be advantageous to:

 

1. Move the Nero 3 right behind the Bird's Nest (or move the Bird's Nest to the other side). The outside magnet can be placed underwater, so you can mount it on the sump wall. Yes, I know that this would mean both flow sources are side by side, but I think it would be less of an issue with a pump that strong. You could probably run a very strong Pulse due to the length of the tank. The SPS won't mind at all.

 

2. If you have 2 Prime AIs, perhaps the one over the Bird's Nest could be kept at the current setting but the other one lowers in intensity (no change to timing or spectrum). 

 

 

One other possibility, and this one is a hail mary, but I might run some high quality carbon just in case one of the Zoa's is releasing or released palytoxin due to being pissed off about the move. EDIT - oh I see you are running carbon. Hmm, scratch that.

 

 

What are we hoping to do by moving the Nero? What do you think is the issue with having it where it is?

[growsomething]

On 5/10/2023 at 1:37 PM, TheKleinReef said:

nope

 

this

 

You can have healthy corals with the correct balance of nutrient input and export. look at the success of ULNS's like zeovit.

 

You're just as likely to have a healthy tank with 0 measureable nitrate and a good feeding regimen as you are with a system that has 1-50.

heck, i've seen gorgeous tanks with both 0ppm and 100ppm lol

True, but with NO3 undetectable and PO4 at 0.05, isn't the balance at least a little off?  It seems like one possibility to at least be eliminated by gradually dosing nitrates for a 2 week test?

[TheKleinReef]

0 and 0.05 both are relatively low. I doubt this "off" is the sole cause of the problem, but it could be exacerbating.

 

i'd say too little of nutrients and too much light or too little nutrients and too much alk are more common issues than a purely NP balance

[Lebowski_]

4 hours ago, BOSN'MATE said:

What are we hoping to do by moving the Nero? What do you think is the issue with having it where it is?

 

Moving the Nero behind the BN allows you to keep it cranked. Right now it seems like the Nero is closest to the corals/animals that require less flow, and furthest from the coral that wants it the most.

 

Up to you, but I would swap the BN or the Nero so they are closer, and this should help break up the flow before it gets to the rest of the tank.

[BOSN'MATE]

3 hours ago, Lebowski_ said:

 

Moving the Nero behind the BN allows you to keep it cranked. Right now it seems like the Nero is closest to the corals/animals that require less flow, and furthest from the coral that wants it the most.

 

Up to you, but I would swap the BN or the Nero so they are closer, and this should help break up the flow before it gets to the rest of the tank.

I see what you are saying, but the output for the tank filter pump is right beside/ behind the BN. So it gets a lot of flow already.

[mcarroll]

20 minutes ago, BOSN'MATE said:

I see what you are saying, but the output for the tank filter pump is right beside/ behind the BN. So it gets a lot of flow already.

Another way to look at @Lebowski_'s suggestion is:  Why not get a smaller Nero if you aren't gonna use 100% of what you have?  More flow is almost always a good thing for your corals if the tank can handle it....sand and everything.

[Rukia]

As for the zoas, they tend to like higher phosphates/nitrates. I highly recommend hanna ulr phosphate and nitrate lr. I have those and calcium and alkalinity. The api tests are such a hassle and not very reliable. 
 

like others say, take it slow and don’t change anything quickly. Work on monitoring parameters and keeping them stable. Honestly with the growth you have, things look good