Dosing Neonitro in a one gallon pico

[NatureGuy]

A mere 24 hours after a water change my pico drops from 5 to 0.3 NO3. 
 

I read 1 ml neonitro increases the NO3 in one gallon by 5 ppm. So (after accounting for water displacement) do I just add it directly to the tank? 
 

Is there a different supplement I should be using?

 

 I tried feeding heavily, but after 48 hours it was still zero. I figure it’s being used up as it comes or I didn’t wait long enough for decomposition. Shall I hurst start feeding the coral daily? 

[seabass]

I would guess that the absence of nitrate has created quite the demand for it.  Eventually, the demand will become more normal.  But for now, keep dosing and monitoring.  You can dose as many times as necessary to get nitrate levels back up.

 

While this is happening, you might need to monitor alkalinity too.  In addition, watch phosphate levels, as removing a limiting factor (low nitrogen) might create additional demand for phosphate as well (at least temporarily).

Edited April 5, 2023 by seabass
clarification

[TheKleinReef]

 

careful dosing nitrate, as it will cause alk to rise.

 

but in a pico with the ability to do massive water changes this may not be a problem.

Before dosing, I would just decrease size/frequency of the water change.

[NatureGuy]

3 minutes ago, TheKleinReef said:

 

careful dosing nitrate, as it will cause alk to rise.

 

but in a pico with the ability to do massive water changes this may not be a problem.

Before dosing, I would just decrease size/frequency of the water change.

Do you mean before I begin dosing or before trying dosing? 

[TheKleinReef]

Just now, NatureGuy said:

Do you mean before I begin dosing or before trying dosing? 

i just mean before using dosing as a strategy of nitrate control in general.

 

Once you get the nitrate range you want, see if you can balance feeding and water changes around that. If it is still dropping to zero but you want to do the water changes then consider dosing.

 

IMO.

After having a pretty whack nitrate/alk problem, I don't want to dose nitrate if i don't have to.

[seabass]

12 minutes ago, TheKleinReef said:

careful dosing nitrate, as it will cause alk to rise.

Yes.  Thank you.  I mentioned dosing alk, but it should have read just monitoring alk.  I edited my post above.

[TheKleinReef]

1 minute ago, seabass said:

Yes.  Thank you.  I mentioned dosing alk, but should have typed monitoring alk.  I edited my post above.

 

in a 1g with water changes i doubt it'll be a problem but i think this is something every reefer  needs to know about since dosing it is becoming a very problem solution to the "low nutrient problem"

[NatureGuy]

10 minutes ago, TheKleinReef said:

i just mean before using dosing as a strategy of nitrate control in general.

 

Once you get the nitrate range you want, see if you can balance feeding and water changes around that. If it is still dropping to zero but you want to do the water changes then consider dosing.

 

IMO.

After having a pretty whack nitrate/alk problem, I don't want to dose nitrate if i don't have to.

The NO3 drops so quickly that I’ve actually been using water changes to boost the NO3 (in the new water it’s at 5 ppm). I’ve tried feeding heavily, but never more then  every three days because I read that coral need to digest before being fed again. Could I do it daily? There’s nothing but coral in the tank to feed. 
 

I could try doing daily water changes, to increase NO3, but I’d rather not have to long term. Perhaps consumption would decrease significantly enough with time for then to no longer be necessary? I’m unsure how much effect the increased demand @seabass indicated has. 

[TheKleinReef]

2 minutes ago, NatureGuy said:

The NO3 drops so quickly that I’ve actually been using water changes to boost the NO3 (in the new water it’s at 5 ppm). I’ve tried feeding heavily, but never more the very three days because I read that coral need to digest before being fed again. Could I do it daily? There’s nothing but coral in the tank to feed. 
 

I could try doing daily water changes, to increase NO3, but I’d rather not have to long term. Perhaps consumption would decrease significantly enough with time for then to no longer be necessary? I’m unsure how much effect the increased demand @seabass indicated has. 

50 ppm of nitrate consumed gives 2.3 dKH of alk.

 

Your fresh sw has nitrate? That's interesting. What salt are you using? I wonder if mine does.

[seabass]

17 hours ago, TheKleinReef said:

in a 1g with water changes i doubt it'll be a problem but i think this is something every reefer  needs to know about since dosing it is becoming a very problem solution to the "low nutrient problem"

Yeah.  We've been dosing alkalinity to maintain levels for years; it's probably time we start thinking about nitrate consumption (when dosing nitrate) as another source of alkalinity.  I know some people have been playing with dosing ammonia as a source of nitrogen, as it doesn't increase net alkalinity.  I suppose that it's possible to do safely when you limit total ammonia to 0.25ppm or less.

[TheKleinReef]

Just now, seabass said:

I know some people have been playing with dosing ammonia as a source of nitrogen

I bought a bottle for this, but in the end i just let the alk climb until it balanced out. which ended up being 9.0dkH.

No matter what I did i could not keep the dkh close to my SW mix.

 

[NatureGuy]

4 minutes ago, TheKleinReef said:

50 ppm of nitrate consumed gives 2.3 dKH of alk.

 

Your fresh sw has nitrate? That's interesting. What salt are you using? I wonder if mine does.

I buy premixed form my LFS. Im not 100% sure, but I think it’s RPM if I recall correctly 

[mcarroll]

A few things in no particular order...

 

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of dosing nitrates without any mention of phosphates.

 

Also, are you dosing nutrients "on principle" or have any negative side effects been noticed when the levels get near-zero? 

 

I ask because in an otherwise reasonably well balanced tank (ie no major algae bloom), corals can generally deal with low nitrate levels really well.  Low-NO3 by itself can really be a non-issue.

 

Also, is there much algae growth?   Include cyano, coralline algae, everything.

 

If phosphate levels are also dwindling to zero, that's worth being more proactive about.

 

You aren't going to dose enough nitrate to affect your alkalinity....you're adding such a tiny amount AND doing water changes.  Anecdotally, there's a related thread that's well over 10,000 posts long where virtually everyone was systematically dosing nutrients more or less like you, but sometimes at a much higher rate, and alk was literally never an issue...which shouldn't be completely surprising.  Alk is consumed by lots of processes other than nitrification, so even without considering coral consumption general tank consumption is probably enough to absorb most or all of the "alk residue" from dosing nitrates.

 

On 4/5/2023 at 1:42 PM, NatureGuy said:

The NO3 drops so quickly that I’ve actually been using water changes to boost the NO3 (in the new water it’s at 5 ppm).

While dosing nutrients into your water change water is a completely fine way to add nutrients to the tank....there's no need to involve a water change if all you want to do is raise nutrients.  It's completely fine to add nutrients directly to the tank if you want.

 

If you aren't adding the nutrients 😬, then check your test results by testing some tap water and some RODI water from the same source as the saltwater.  Tap water should be zero (or match your municipal test results) and RODI should be zero.  Prolly better to test RODI for TDS if you have a meter (and ideally you should have a TDS meter).  Either something is wrong with your testing, or the water, if it has nutrients you aren't adding.

[NatureGuy]

7 hours ago, mcarroll said:

A few things in no particular order...

 

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of dosing nitrates without any mention of phosphates.

 

Also, are you dosing nutrients "on principle" or have any negative side effects been noticed when the levels get near-zero? 

 

I ask because in an otherwise reasonably well balanced tank (ie no major algae bloom), corals can generally deal with low nitrate levels really well.  Low-NO3 by itself can really be a non-issue.

 

Also, is there much algae growth?   Include cyano, coralline algae, everything.

 

If phosphate levels are also dwindling to zero, that's worth being more proactive about.

 

You aren't going to dose enough nitrate to affect your alkalinity....you're adding such a tiny amount AND doing water changes.  Anecdotally, there's a related thread that's well over 10,000 posts long where virtually everyone was systematically dosing nutrients more or less like you, but sometimes at a much higher rate, and alk was literally never an issue...which shouldn't be completely surprising.  Alk is consumed by lots of processes other than nitrification, so even without considering coral consumption general tank consumption is probably enough to absorb most or all of the "alk residue" from dosing nitrates.

 

While dosing nutrients into your water change water is a completely fine way to add nutrients to the tank....there's no need to involve a water change if all you want to do is raise nutrients.  It's completely fine to add nutrients directly to the tank if you want.

 

If you aren't adding the nutrients 😬, then check your test results by testing some tap water and some RODI water from the same source as the saltwater.  Tap water should be zero (or match your municipal test results) and RODI should be zero.  Prolly better to test RODI for TDS if you have a meter (and ideally you should have a TDS meter).  Either something is wrong with your testing, or the water, if it has nutrients you aren't adding.

Thanks! 
 

I have been watching phosphate levels 

 

I have noticed a faded coloration on some corals. I’ve also noticed that after about a week of being added, they seem to stop displayed and feeding response. Thy’ve resumed since the nitrate dosing began, but it could certainly be coincidence. 

 

There’s a considerable amount of hair algae (I’ll add a pic) 

 

The salt water is premixed from my LFS- I was under the impression it was normal to have detectable nitrates in it. Maybe the LFS is just a bit crap though, the salinity is a bit of too (which I will be doing something about) 

 

 

 

 

[seabass]

7 minutes ago, NatureGuy said:

I have been watching phosphate levels

What level (or range) is it?

 

 

8 minutes ago, NatureGuy said:

The salt water is premixed from my LFS- I was under the impression it was normal to have detectable nitrates in it.

No; salt mixes don't contain nutrients (although some will contain ammonia).  IDK, maybe someday salt mixes will include nutrients, but not today.  Also, pure water (RO/DI or distilled) usually doesn't contain any nutrients either.  However, tap water and poorly maintained RO systems often contain nutrients.

[NatureGuy]

10 minutes ago, seabass said:

What level (or range) is it?

It’s from 0.03-0.25. I believe it spikes considerably after feeding 

[NatureGuy]

12 minutes ago, seabass said:

No; salt mixes don't contain nutrients (although some will contain ammonia).  IDK, maybe someday salt mixes will include nutrients, but not today.  Also, pure water (RO/DI or distilled) usually doesn't contain any nutrients either.  However, tap water and poorly maintained RO systems often contain nutrients.

Damn, this and the salinity kinda makes me lose faith in that LFS. If I start buying salt from a different one, will a sudden change in what salt mix I’m using matter? 

[seabass]

40 minutes ago, NatureGuy said:

If I start buying salt from a different one, will a sudden change in what salt mix I’m using matter? 

It kind of depends of what brand of salt they use (its parameters).  For example, Red Sea Coral Pro might mix to an alkalinity of 12 dKH, while Red Sea Salt (in the blue bucket) mixes to around 8 dKH.  If the parameters are very different, your corals might react negatively to the sudden change.  However, if you gradually make the change (like 10% weekly water changes), your corals will likely have time to acclimate to the new parameters.

 

Most people eventually decide that it's cheaper, more convenient, and better able to control (water quality, salinity, and other parameters) by making their own water.  Some people start by using distilled water as their source, but owning and maintaining your own RO/DI system is the most economical source of pure water.

 

But keep in mind, that whenever you buy corals, they are likely coming from a tank with different parameters than yours, and the change in parameters is quite sudden.  So how you decide to make the switch is up to you.  Just monitor the parameters so you know what is happening in your tank.

 

 

1 hour ago, NatureGuy said:

It’s from 0.03-0.25. I believe it spikes considerably after feeding 

Feeding is usually the main source of phosphate.  However, it's unusually to have such a large spike after feeding.   I'm thinking there are some testing inconsistencies going on too.

[TheKleinReef]

10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You aren't going to dose enough nitrate to affect your alkalinity....you're adding such a tiny amount AND doing water changes.  Anecdotally, there's a related thread that's well over 10,000 posts long where virtually everyone was systematically dosing nutrients more or less like you, but sometimes at a much higher rate, and alk was literally never an issue...which shouldn't be completely surprising.  Alk is consumed by lots of processes other than nitrification, so even without considering coral consumption general tank consumption is probably enough to absorb most or all of the "alk residue" from dosing nitrates.

 

I don't like logic, but he muted me so he won't see my reply lol.

 

in most cases where people are dosing nitrate there is often organisms that are consuming the alkalinity given off by the addition of nitrate making the apparent effect nearly undetectable. That's fine, but if you don't have anything consuming the alkalinity it will climb. On a scale as small as a pico it might be offset by the water change routine, but that doesn't negate the fact that if you're dosing nitrate and nothing is consuming alk, alk will climb.

 

OP: if possible, i'd find a way to mix your own SW. On a scale as small as a pico a few gallons of distilled water with a small box of high quality salt would be cost effective and take one of the nutrient addition variables out of the equation so you can focus on a feeding routine/filtration balance and not rely on water changes to add nutrients.

[mcarroll]

10 hours ago, NatureGuy said:

Damn, this and the salinity kinda makes me lose faith in that LFS. If I start buying salt from a different one, will a sudden change in what salt mix I’m using matter? 

You might consider asking them about the nutrients levels and the salinity you're seeing.   Maybe even take your test kits to the store to test there and show them?

 

 

[NatureGuy]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You might consider asking them about the nutrients levels and the salinity you're seeing.   Maybe even take your test kits to the store to test there and show them?

 

 

I’ve definitely not got the confidence for that lol 

[mcarroll]

13 hours ago, NatureGuy said:

I’ve definitely not got the confidence for that lol 

Because of the store, or because of another factor?

 

If it helps...

 

I'd be really surprised if the folks at the store minded.   If you suspect they would, maybe just call them on the phone and ask about the numbers....and if they think it's OK you could also take in your test kits.