Sump and Flow Recommendations

[Dave21]

Hi all!

 

So I'm upgrading from a 29 gallon tank to a 90 gallon. I've been using a Tidal 55 HOB on my 29 gallon and have been happy with it so far. Im debating on a Tidal 110 on the 90 or doing a basic sump. 

 

If I do a a sump I'm wondering if an 800gph overflow box would be enough? Also would it hurt to to do a larger, say 1000gph overflow and throttle it back with a gateway valve incase I ever want to increase flow? 

 

For the sump I only have enough room in the homemade stand for a 20 long. I could maybe do a 29 but it would be tight trying to get things in and out to work in the sump. 

 

I've been looking at buying a 20 long since petco has them on sale for $25 right now and putting in one of the eBay refugium kits or purchasing the crystal 30 https://fishtanksdirect.com/trigger-systems-crystal-30-sump-crys30s/?sku=1019-NO&msclkid=5efc044c9e6e16cacc81670823605291. 

 

Would 20 gallon be a large enough sump for a 90 gallon tank to be worth it?

[mcarroll]

On 10/10/2022 at 8:48 PM, Dave21 said:

If I do a a sump I'm wondering if an 800gph overflow box would be enough? Also would it hurt to to do a larger, say 1000gph overflow and throttle it back with a gateway valve incase I ever want to increase flow? 

If you do an overflow box, a U-tube style box is much more resilient to losing its siphon than the open-channel types.

 

And you should size everything about the return correctly rather than over- or under-sizing anything.  This goes especially for the overflow – they should be run closer to the top of their specified flow range (50%+) for maximum reliability vs running them in a low-flow state.

 

An 800 GPH box should run something like 400 GPH of actual flow through it.  400 / 4 = 100 Gallons.   That would be enough flow to support around 100 Gallons of system.   You can see they had your tank size in mind (approximately) when they made it.  🙂 

 

A good pump to deliver around 400 GPH to a 90 Gallon tank would be a Quiet One 2200 or Mag 5.  (Upsizing one level to a Quiet One 3000 or Mag 7 would be OK, no need to throttle; but not a necessary upsize.)

 

On 10/10/2022 at 8:48 PM, Dave21 said:

For the sump I only have enough room in the homemade stand for a 20 long. I could maybe do a 29 but it would be tight trying to get things in and out to work in the sump. 

That's not a lot of sump to support 90 gallons.

 

You'd want a skimmer like the Tunze 9410, which is a beast....but it needs a minimum depth of 5.5".  

 

5.5" is doable in a 20L, but it doesn't leave much volume of water in the sump....probably less than 10 gallons.  Which leaves around 10 gallons for overflow when the system powers down.  

 

A 90 Gallon has a footprint of 48"x18"....so every inch of water that drains from the tank during a power-off, would be 3.75 gallons of water....plus whatever volume is in the pipes.  Doable, but not a very wide margin of safety.   There'd be room in the sump for no more than 2.7 inches of water to drain from the main tank (10 gallons), assuming all my numbers actually apply to your tanks.  (Measure them!)

 

An Alternative

What about doing an internal Tunze skimmer and filter to do your 90 as an AIO?   (That's how I have my 125 Gallon set up, FYI.)

That would be a model 9012 skimmer, and model 3168 filter...along with an Osmolator ATO.

 

Alternately, just a 9012DC skimmer....skip the filter, but the DC version of the skimmer has more oomph.  

 

Depends on your needs for the filter module.

 

Another Alternative

What about building a new DIY stand that could accommodate a 40 Breeder or standard 30 Gallon?   2x4's and plywood are pretty cheap!!  And reef tanks last a LONG time!  🙂 

Edited October 13, 2022 by mcarroll
Fixed an incorrect unit.

[Dave21]

Thanks for the super thorough reply! I have decided on doing a sump. I've never used one but constantly read positive things about them so am going to give it a try. 

 

I am going to go with Eshopps overflow box which does have the round U tube siphon. I've read a lot of good things about them and actually bought some coral off a local guy that has been using them for years without issue. I'll prob add one of the AutoAqua smart level security sensor to the return pump just incase the siphon ever broke. 

 

A 30 standard 36x12x16 should fit but I don't know where to get one. Petco doesn't carry them and neither do any of the smaller local shops. My main issue is the width as the stand can only fit an aquarium 12.5in wide. 

 

I'd prefer to utilize the stand that came with the tank if possible to help save some cost and time etc. Plus I actually like the look of the stand but can consider it if there are no other options. 

 

I'd like as quiet a return pump as possible because the tank is actually in the den in the basement near the TV couch etc. I was looking at possibly the Jebao DC return pumps. They looked fairly reasonable on Amazon and seemed to get good reviews. I did read some good reviews on the Quiet One return pumps. Any idea which one would run quieter? 

[mcarroll]

You can't get more quiet than quiet!   😉  

 

Beyond the name itself, QuietOne pumps are dead-silent when running.  I had the 400 GPH and 1000 GPH models in my old sump at different times (and a Mag 7), which were in a totally open stand, and I couldn't hear either one over the skimmer and other equipment running.   (Ditto the Mag.)

 

The sound of the house HVAC running was just about as loud as the tank, so to be able to hear the sound of the pump running at all I would have to put my head down directly over the sump with my ear aimed at the water.  Only then could I hear the slight hum of the motor.

 

That said, any pump CAN BE noisy if it's defective or installed incorrectly.  And even perfectly good pumps vibrate while running, so if they are touching something rigid, like pipe or glass, it will resonate and create sound.  It can be difficult to get a correct install in some cases, but in my experience it's always possible.  Be patient and creative.

 

Even pumps that aren't particularly known for being silent should be pretty quiet too though – it's inherent to the type of pump it is/the kind of seals and bearings it uses/doesn't use.  (Check out the "“AC and DC Pumps” – Internet Reefer’s Decoder Ring" article on my blog for more details on what type of pumps these are.)

[Dave21]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:24 AM, mcarroll said:

Check out the "“AC and DC Pumps” – Internet Reefer’s Decoder Ring" article on my blog for more details on what type of pumps these are.)

Thank great info! 

 

I did decide to go with a sump and stuck with the 20 long. I know it is going to be a bit tight but all the measurements seemed to work out okay and I figure it is still and better option than a HOB. 

 

Took your suggestion on the 800 flow rate and went with an Eshopps. Because reviews did seem to indicate they make some noise I went with the 1000 (two 1in bulk heads instead of one) and plumbed it as herbie style overflow. I'm running only one of the U tubes with the second 1in bulk head as an emergency overflow so essentially it is running identical to the 800 model. 

 

I did go with the Jebao dcp3000 which was within the flow range as the quiet one 3000. 

 

I got sump Baffles with adjustable height so I can tweak the sump depth as needed to accommodate drain from the sump. 

 

Lastly I'm adding the auto aqua level security to the return pump with sensor in the display just as an extra safety measure if the siphon ever breaks. 

 

I have it it test running with just tap water an everything seems to be working out great so far. I really appreciate all the helpful feedback!

 

Here are a few pics. (Ignore the doors missing on the stand. I need to get them back on. 

[joshthebox]

2 hours ago, Dave21 said:

Thank great info! 

 

I did decide to go with a sump and stuck with the 20 long. I know it is going to be a bit tight but all the measurements seemed to work out okay and I figure it is still and better option than a HOB. 

 

Took your suggestion on the 800 flow rate and went with an Eshopps. Because reviews did seem to indicate they make some noise I went with the 1000 (two 1in bulk heads instead of one) and plumbed it as herbie style overflow. I'm running only one of the U tubes with the second 1in bulk head as an emergency overflow so essentially it is running identical to the 800 model. 

 

I did go with the Jebao dcp3000 which was within the flow range as the quiet one 3000. 

 

I got sump Baffles with adjustable height so I can tweak the sump depth as needed to accommodate drain from the sump. 

 

Lastly I'm adding the auto aqua level security to the return pump with sensor in the display just as an extra safety measure if the siphon ever breaks. 

 

I have it it test running with just tap water an everything seems to be working out great so far. I really appreciate all the helpful feedback!

 

Here are a few pics. (Ignore the doors missing on the stand. I need to get them back on. 

Solid looking sump. It'll definitely do the job well. 

[mcarroll]

On 10/28/2022 at 8:51 PM, Dave21 said:

Because reviews did seem to indicate they make some noise

Gravity drains are virtually silent up to around 50% of their rated flow rate.  

 

Above that, depending on exact conditions, they tend to start sucking air along with the water....making some very creative sounds in the process.   You should avoid that fate with your plan.  

 

And no harm using a bigger overflow box as long as you keep it to one U-tube.  (Ok..a little extra harm to the pocketbook vs the smaller unit...😉)

 

On 10/28/2022 at 8:51 PM, Dave21 said:

I did go with the Jebao dcp3000 which was within the flow range as the quiet one 3000. 

Extra control and very cheap, but shorter predicted lifespan.....shorter warranty along with it.   QuietOne's have a 5 year warranty for comparison.

 

Return pumps always fail at the least opportune time, BTW.  I maybe should have mentioned that before you pulled the trigger.  😬

 

Consider keeping a spare return pump around.  (Not a bad idea in general....but especially if you're using a pump like this.)

 

On 10/28/2022 at 8:51 PM, Dave21 said:

I have it it test running with just tap water an everything seems to be working out great so far. I really appreciate all the helpful feedback!

Make sure to test the power-off/restart ability of your pump, overflow, drains, sump, et al, AT LEAST ten times before you validate that it's working OK.

 

As long as that test goes OK, all you need to do is keep an eye on the U tube every once in a while.....air accumulation in the U-tube is what breaks the siphon, if that ever happens....usually it's from 1,000,000's of tiny bubbles accumulating over time.  As long as there is a good flow rate (something like 50% of rating – measure it while the sys is running) bubbles should clear themselves once they accumulate to a certain size.   Low flow rates may not be able to clear these bubbles and eventually the siphon can fail.   (Shouldn't happen with your setup as long as you measure your actual flow rate so you know what's actually going through your plumbing. 👍)

 

Does the overflow have a lid for the back part?

[Dave21]

Yea I read mixed reviews on the Jebao but there was a lot of positive feedback on some forms so I thought I'd give then a try. I actually swapped the 3000 for a 5000 because it was running at 100% and I wanted more turn over. I measured the 5000 and at 63% I'm getting approx 420gph at the return in the tank (pumped 3.5 gallons in 30 seconds) it seems to put me in a good turnover rate and I like it leaves me with some extra volume if I ever decide to run something else. 

 

The pipe itself was quiet but the overflow box made a good bit of sloshing from the middle chamber that keeps the siphon from breaking but I was able to adjust the flow with with the ball valve and everything runs virtually silent. 

 

I did test it numerous times and stop and restart works perfect. The security level sensor also instantly shut off the return pump when I pulled the U tubes out. Adjusting the sump Baffles to 7in deep left empty of room between the water and rim when the return pump shits off and the tank drains down. 

 

The overflow box did not come with a cover for the back or inside the tank but would be simple enough to make an acrylic one if necessary. What would be the reason?

 

Also I'm running a pair of 1050 current usa curculator pumps in my 29 gallon on abt 20% power. Do you think they would be enough flow if I swapped them to the 90 gallon or do you think I would need a third? The loop system allows for a third pump.

 

 

[mcarroll]

3 hours ago, Dave21 said:

Yea I read mixed reviews on the Jebao but there was a lot of positive feedback on some forms so I thought I'd give then a try.

They don't last long, but they are cheap.....the reviews make sense. 😉   I'm serious about keeping a backup on hand though.  That's not a bad idea for any return pump, but especially one like this. 

 

3 hours ago, Dave21 said:

I actually swapped the 3000 for a 5000 because it was running at 100% and I wanted more turn over.

Overkill on return flow doesn't really buy you anything vs correct flow.  Costs more up front and over time to operate as well.

 

All you need is 2-4x your display size in GPH.  That's 180 - 360 GPH in your case.  Note that 4x is already top of the recommended range.  

 

Unless you can't use powerheads for flow in the tank, more return flow isn't helpful for anything.  (Using the return for in-tank flow in a nano or pico tank is the usual exception.  Powerheads are WAY better at providing flow when they will fit in the tank tho.)

 

If you are able to swap return pumps like that can you still swap for a plain AC powered Quiet One 2200?  (Either the 2200 or 3000 should be around the same price as the Jebao's you're talking about.) 

 

4 hours ago, Dave21 said:

The pipe itself was quiet but the overflow box made a good bit of sloshing from the middle chamber that keeps the siphon from breaking but I was able to adjust the flow with with the ball valve and everything runs virtually silent. 

If you cut the return pumps flow back to ≤50% of the drain's rating (600GPH for 1" gravity drain, so about 300 GPH) then you won't have to fiddle with any adjustments and it should be DEAD SILENT.

 

4 hours ago, Dave21 said:

I did test it numerous times and stop and restart works perfect. The security level sensor also instantly shut off the return pump when I pulled the U tubes out. Adjusting the sump Baffles to 7in deep left empty of room between the water and rim when the return pump shits off and the tank drains down. 

Excellent!!   I'd probably still be paranoid and run another whole set of tests....but likely they will turn out the same.  🙂   

 

4 hours ago, Dave21 said:

The overflow box did not come with a cover for the back or inside the tank but would be simple enough to make an acrylic one if necessary. What would be the reason?

Will help with noise and evaporation a little.

 

4 hours ago, Dave21 said:

Also I'm running a pair of 1050 current usa curculator pumps in my 29 gallon on abt 20% power. Do you think they would be enough flow if I swapped them to the 90 gallon or do you think I would need a third? The loop system allows for a third pump.

90 is a LOT more water, so I think I'd plan on adding a third pump – and I'd select a larger model if they have one.   You might end up upgrading your existing two pumps to larger models later on, depending on your interests and success with corals.  (In general, success with corals = death to good flow; more/bigger pumps required.)

 

BTW, how long have you had the 1050's running?

[Dave21]

19 hours ago, mcarroll said:

BTW, how long have you had the 1050's running

I've had them about a year now. I originally upgraded from a single koralia (I think 525gph) to the pair of 1050s in my 29 gallon. At the time I had a 75 gallon I was going to upgrade to and planed to use the 1050s in it but unfortunately it got pumped in storage and cracked. 

 

I actually really like them and think the surge mode makes for some nice visual flow in the corals, particularly the Xenia, Toadstool, and Goniopora. 

 

They make a 2100gph model that can be run off the same hub so I might look at picking it up to combine with the two 1050s.

[jservedio]

As someone who ran an HOB overflow for 10 years, two things you should really, really invest in is a float switch relay for your return pump and some plastic mesh to protect the internal box of the overflow. I had Paul from AutoTopoff.com put together a float switch relay box for around $35 and it quite literally saved me tens of thousands of dollars on more than one occasion. If you are going to run an HOB overflow, IMO a relay box to shut down your return pump if the water level in your DT gets too high is a necessity. The mesh will prevent things like snails from getting into your U pipe. All it takes is a single snail, a big hunk of algae, or just the accumulation of bubbles to ruin your floors.

 

The external box on your HOB overflow doesn't appear to have a weir where the U pipe drains, so you may want to raise the height of the drain level in the external box to above the bottom of the U pipe to prevent it from breaking siphon if the return pump is off for too long.

[Dave21]

5 hours ago, jservedio said:

As someone who ran an HOB overflow for 10 years, two things you should really, really invest in is a float switch relay for your return pump and some plastic mesh to protect the internal box of the overflow. I had Paul from AutoTopoff.com put together a float switch relay box for around $35 and it quite literally saved me tens of thousands of dollars on more than one occasion. If you are going to run an HOB overflow, IMO a relay box to shut down your return pump if the water level in your DT gets too high is a necessity. The mesh will prevent things like snails from getting into your U pipe. All it takes is a single snail, a big hunk of algae, or just the accumulation of bubbles to ruin your floors.

 

The external box on your HOB overflow doesn't appear to have a weir where the U pipe drains, so you may want to raise the height of the drain level in the external box to above the bottom of the U pipe to prevent it from breaking siphon if the return pump is off for too long.

Yea I had the same concern and wanted to make sure it is failproof as possible. The overflow box actually does have a clear acrylic weir built into it so in the even the pump kicks off the siphon will restart. Also the DT is protected from overflowing in the event of a siphon break by the Auto Aqua security level sensor. If you pull the U tubes out the return pump kicks off within second. 

[jservedio]

11 minutes ago, Dave21 said:

Yea I had the same concern and wanted to make sure it is failproof as possible. The overflow box actually does have a clear acrylic weir built into it so in the even the pump kicks off the siphon will restart. Also the DT is protected from overflowing in the event of a siphon break by the Auto Aqua security level sensor. If you pull the U tubes out the return pump kicks off within second. 

Is the Aqua Security sensor in the DT or the the sump? I didn't see it in the DT picture so that's why I mentioned the relay. If it's in the sump, you may want to move it up to the DT if you are ever planning on getting an ATO, even if it doesn't look great. If you get an ATO and the sensor is in the sump, it'll keep kicking on the pump as the ATO refills the return chamber.

 

I still have paranoia about an HOB siphon break and it's been two years since I've had one running 🤣