Cycling Dry Rock - EVO 13.5

[SchwiftyMouse]

Hi All,

 

I’m currently on day 20 of cycling a new tank. I started with dry rock and 1lb of live sand. For start up bacteria I am using Aquaforest Bio S and Dr Tims Ammonia. Aquaforest reef salt mixed with Rodi(0TDS). Tank temperature has been kept at 81.

 

On Day 1 added in a drop of Bios and waited to see if the sand would cause an ammonia spike (went to 0.2).

On Day 3 I added in the ammonia drops as instructed to get to 2.0. Everyday I’ve continued to dose 1 drop of bios.

Day 7, PH 8.2, NH3 2, NO2 0.

Day 14 PH 8.2, NH3 0.8, NO2 1.

Day 18 PH 8.2, NH3 .2, NO2 0.1.

At this point I added in more ammonia drops to bring it back up to 2 to see if it could be converted within 24 hours. It has now been 48 hours and ammonia is still present.

Day 20 PH 8.2, NH3 0.8, NO2 0.05, NO3 5.

 

From what I see it had the nitrite spike and is converting to nitrate, is it normal for it to take this long to convert the ammonia? My thoughts are keep adding in the bacteria and wait for it to completely drop to 0 at this point and then do a water change.

 

Thoughts??

[DevilDuck]

What test kit are you using for ammonia? I know that API test can give false positives. 

I think your on the right track. 

[SchwiftyMouse]

I am using the Red Sea Marine Care Kit.

 

[Jakesaw]

20 minutes ago, SchwiftyMouse said:

I am using the Red Sea Marine Care Kit.

 

That's a good ammonia test

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, SchwiftyMouse said:

I started with dry rock and 1lb of live sand. For start up bacteria I am using Aquaforest Bio S and Dr Tims Ammonia.

Not supposed to kneecap your live sand with an ammonia spike.  😬   Kind of a waste of money.

 

Live sand (or rock) is THE BETTER WAY to "cycle" and you almost chose it.  

 

Fishless cycling has gotten too popular for its own good.  LOL.  Sorry you went down that road. 

 

For the record:   There is no benefit to fishless cycling.  It's an outmoded replacement for an older outmoded method of cycling.  🙂  No reason for either one.  (Dr Tim says pretty much the same, FYI.) 

 

In fact fishless cycling might compromise the biology of your reef and make for a rougher start to your tank, including making dino's more likely.  Not something a newb needs at all....or anyone really.

 

Instant cycling and the natural method are both preferable IMO...with the caveat that there "should be" no reason for someone to be in a hurry and need "instant".  Being in a hurry leads to many problems....or as we usually say: Nothing Good Happens Fast In A Reef Tank. With this consideration, the natural method is the best route – vary only when necessary.

 

1 hour ago, SchwiftyMouse said:

I’m currently on day 20

[...]

Thoughts??

A tank will cycle naturally in 30-40 days without you really doing anything.  You'd almost be there if you had just saved your money and banked on patience.  🙂

 

I'd consider doing a 100% water change and "starting over" this way – it also happens to be the best way to stock a tank in general.  

 

Start with a small snail or two....wait at least a week before adding 1-2 more small critters (could be more snails or even corals if you're comfortable growing corals)....continue that cycle of adding and waiting and progressing to larger critters until your system is stocked.  Going slowly and gradually building the tank's bio-load is the key.

 

It's wise to use a Seachem AmmoAlert badge while you're stocking a tank.

[SchwiftyMouse]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

Not supposed to kneecap your live sand with an ammonia spike.  😬   Kind of a waste of money.

 

Live sand (or rock) is THE BETTER WAY to "cycle" and you almost chose it.  

 

Fishless cycling has gotten too popular for its own good.  LOL.  Sorry you went down that road. 

 

For the record:   There is no benefit to fishless cycling.  It's an outmoded replacement for an older outmoded method of cycling.  🙂  No reason for either one.  (Dr Tim says pretty much the same, FYI.) 

 

In fact fishless cycling might compromise the biology of your reef and make for a rougher start to your tank, including making dino's more likely.  Not something a newb needs at all....or anyone really.

 

Instant cycling and the natural method are both preferable IMO...with the caveat that there "should be" no reason for someone to be in a hurry and need "instant".  Being in a hurry leads to many problems....or as we usually say: Nothing Good Happens Fast In A Reef Tank. With this consideration, the natural method is the best route – vary only when necessary.

 

A tank will cycle naturally in 30-40 days without you really doing anything.  You'd almost be there if you had just saved your money and banked on patience.  🙂

 

I'd consider doing a 100% water change and "starting over" this way – it also happens to be the best way to stock a tank in general.  

 

Start with a small snail or two....wait at least a week before adding 1-2 more small critters (could be more snails or even corals if you're comfortable growing corals)....continue that cycle of adding and waiting and progressing to larger critters until your system is stocked.  Going slowly and gradually building the tank's bio-load is the key.

 

It's wise to use a Seachem AmmoAlert badge while you're stocking a tank.

So I’ve had a couple tanks in the past. Just getting back into the hobby after 10 years…sadly I forgot almost everything. Hence why I’m in the beginners discussion 🥲.

 

In the past I started up my tank the ol fashion way with live rock and sand and then gradually stocked the tank. My gf bought me a “starter” bundle for Christmas so this is what I had to work with and unfortunately the LFS around me doesn’t carry live rock. Also I didn’t want to run into any pest issues the live rock may have.

 

I get what you’re saying but I don’t understand the point in doing a 100% water change to restart. Yes the ammonia spike would have “kneecapped” the live sand but would that bacteria not have still populated the rock and remained in the sand? At most I think it would have just slowed down the overall process? I find it hard to believe 2 ppm of ammonia would kill off the bacteria or else a lot of people would be screwed.
 

My thought was let ammonia come back down to zero. Do a 50%  water change change and then start slowing adding in some snails and crabs over a few weeks. Maybe  a cheap zoa frag or gsp. But I didn’t plan on adding fish for a few months to be honest. 

 

Curious if you can share any links or resources about fishless cycling compromising the tanks biology as I would like to give it a read. Anything I could find only suggests it would improve the biology….but who knows they are trying to sell a product after all. 

Im in no rush here as I’ve been down this road before and let’s be real if your concerned about burning a few bucks on sand we’re in the wrong hobby 😂.

 

Thanks for the feedback 👍

 

[mcarroll]

14 hours ago, SchwiftyMouse said:

Also I didn’t want to run into any pest issues the live rock may have.

The irony of that is how "hitchhikers" has been transliterated over the years to mean "pests".  Most folks don't even think about the beneficial....just the fear.  I don't remember the hobby being like that in the 1990's.🤷‍♂️

 

14 hours ago, SchwiftyMouse said:

I get what you’re saying but I don’t understand the point in doing a 100% water change to restart.

Just to get the water back to standard and simplify things going forward – nothing magical.  There's just no need for the ammonia and other byproducts in the water.

 

14 hours ago, SchwiftyMouse said:

I find it hard to believe 2 ppm of ammonia would kill off the bacteria or else a lot of people would be screwed.

Kneecapping is serious damage and a permanent limp, but it's not murder!  🙂

 

But in all seriousness, and to your point, a LOT of folks really do have a LOT of problems when attempting this startup method.  It's not my word, but "screwed" could be a way to describe that.

 

14 hours ago, SchwiftyMouse said:

My thought was let ammonia come back down to zero. Do a 50%  water change change and then start slowing adding in some snails and crabs over a few weeks. Maybe  a cheap zoa frag or gsp. But I didn’t plan on adding fish for a few months to be honest. 

I'm not sure there's any benefit to waiting out the ammonia vs water changing it out....but otherwise I say that's a good plan!   👍

 

14 hours ago, SchwiftyMouse said:

Curious if you can share any links or resources about fishless cycling compromising the tanks biology as I would like to give it a read. Anything I could find only suggests it would improve the biology….but who knows they are trying to sell a product after all. 

Hm.

 

Short answer...No.  

 

Longer answer...

 

There are no good articles about fishless cycling that I'm aware of.  

 

Even articles about it on reef sites still just parrot the same instructions you'll find on freshwater sites. 🤷‍♂️  

 

It's not even a really good way to cycle a fish-only tank.  IMO it's always been a novelty...with some folks rotting meat in their tanks, some folks reaching for cleaning chemicals, etc.  Novelty.

 

As for the biology, first I'll put it into visuals....

 

 

Would you pick this ammonia-fueled mono crop (ie only bacteria)...

 

...as the best way to start this amazing ecosystem (ie a reef)?

 

No.  🙂 

 

...because a reef is a complicated ecosystem of MANY MANY competing organisms....from the micro to the macro...it's not just a bacteria farm.  

 

That varied competition is what makes a reef (or other ecosystem) stable.  

 

And that stability is one of the reefs most important features.  (Even in a home reef!)

 

As far as products...

 

I'm not aware of any that are made for fishless cycling.  

 

Ammonia is made for housecleaning.  

 

Dr Tim's, Bio Spira and the rest like them are made for instant cycling fish tanks.  

 

Older bacterial products were more or less just seed cultures for the natural method – somewhat unneeded since nitrifying bacteria are ubiquitous in the environment, on your fingerprints, in the dust in air, etc. – but they would only make a small difference in cycling time.

 

14 hours ago, SchwiftyMouse said:

Im in no rush here as I’ve been down this road before and let’s be real if your concerned about burning a few bucks on sand we’re in the wrong hobby 😂.

It's certainly not about the cost of sand – I hope I never gave you that idea. 😄  

 

At the same time I'm hopeful you aren't a huge fan of wasting money or time....or live sand. 😉 

 

My only real concern since I started doing this back in the early 1990's is being successful at reefing and (later on) helping others do the same.  I love this stuff.    👍