onthefly Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 This is funny......you know Cadesun and I worked this out long ago. For those jumping on me for dropping my degrees.....I only did so when I was attacked. That is how I do things, and a major reason why I'm not a big fan or NR anymore. I use Garlic as a soak every night...and if you search....you'll see that I've done so, and tauted it's bennies for a very long time! As for garlic "boosting" the immune system. The MANUFACTOR markets it as an attractant, because it is! For them to claim it boost the immune system would be false advertising. Until the research supports it. Currently there is anecdotal evidence that it cures all sorts of thing ailments, and this is what I've seen. Like NCNbilly said, "if it seems to work - it does". I'm not saying it is snake oil!!! There were a "ton" of listings in PubMed last time I checked. Since it has been 6 months, I just did a search for "garlic" and "immune system". Got 73 hits! Most however are unreputable journals. Case in point: "Southeast Asian J Trop Med Public Health" I did see one in "Immunity", one in "Leukemia", one in "J. Biochemistry", and several in "J. nutrition". These are the only reputable journals in the whole lot. That being said, the JBC paper is referring to garlic root growth (not too applicable to our debate), 2 of the J. Nutri papers are reffering to reducing cholesterol and atherosclerosis (not too worried about the arteries of fish!!), one of immunology paper refers to a garlic compound causing apoptosis (counterproductive don't you think?), the other says it down regulates chemotaxsis of T cells, but that it "is somehow beneficial" to the immune system. Some of work by Lau et al. (his paper on oxdative stress and NF-kB ) is interesting, but doesn't constitute a immune system boost. Only that further research is needed. Once again, believe what you want......If I tried to take any of the above "reputable" articles into a journal club (a class required by most scienitific graduate student) I get raked over the coals and laughed out the door. I love feeding with garlic Link to comment
cadesun Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 HAHAHA! i agree onthefly... ol' NR isn't what it used to be. too many uninformed people giving out bad advice. i don't blame you one bit for dropping degrees, it shows that you are informed on the topic, which is more than most people can say. and i think our conversation was great; we were both informed and both had access to material (some of it admittedly questionable) which helped us prove our cases. i wish i saw more of that here and less childishness. garlic is great Link to comment
lgoins Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I didn't read all this thread but decided to skip to the end and add my 2 cents. I've used garlic extreme several times, and it has cleared up ich and the black ich in my tank. Link to comment
MillerLite Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Hey onthefly, I think you need to go back to your journal club and read some more...and take cadesun with you. I ran a graduate level journal club in toxicology at the University of Michigan for several years and I can tell that just because it wasnt published in JBC or Science or Nature, doesnt necessarily make it crap. You and I both know that what goes into many of the top rate AMERICAN journals is garbage as well and political (what professor publishes first and what lab it comes from) plays a large role too. Just because it isnt high on the american list of impact factor journals does not mean that other lesser international known journals dont publish good papers. Also, please dont let your ignorance of physiological mechanisms cloud your judgement of the overall picture of garlic. There are several beneficial drugs that cause apoptosis (cell death) and down regulation of immunity at high doses and are quite beneficial at low doses. Did you forget paracelsius that said "Its the dose that makes the poison". Its not as simple as you are portraying it to be. Anyways, I dont think you and cadesum have proved anything except for maybe the fact that you can do a pubmed search. Again, not touting that garlic can do all its reported to do, but it obviously works somehow and i think that the proof is in the results. The misinformation only effects those that read one or two threads or articles and fail to see the bigger picture. Link to comment
MrAnderson Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 MillerLite, chill. There are plenty of advanced degrees around here, and while you may look down your nose FROM University of Michigan, there are some who look down their nose AT University of Michigan. Got many nobel laureates in your department? Some of us do... Now for your qualifying exam question: Correlation does not prove causation; shine on us with your light and provide us with a mechanism. Blah blah apoptosis blah blah doesn't count. Some of us understand molecular immunology very well. Link to comment
MillerLite Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Hey Anderson, think you should take your own advice. Why not take some time and read the whole thread. You will notice that I was the last one to throw down my affiliations and experience. I have never looked my nose down at anyone, and i am not about to start in this forum. Michigan definitely has its problems, but then again it is one of the top universities in medical sciences...but then of course you probably already knew that. Also, I wasnt the first one to throw down the molecular immunology and understand well that correlation does not equal causation. The experimental evidence appears to be greater than mere correlation although the mechanism remains mostly unknown. Also, I was merely stating that to discount articles published in journals less than the highest impact journals is not performing responsible research. The availability of more efficient human immunomodulating drugs often override interest and research into dietary supplements. This doesnt mean of course that they dont work because we havent figured out their mechanisms.... Link to comment
MillerLite Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 One more thing. I do apologize if I offended anyone with my last two emails. I have been under excessive deadline at work and although that is obviously no excuse, I never meant to offend. I try to take breaks now and then to keep up with nanoreef.com So Anderson thanks for pointing out some faults in my comments. Sorry onthefly and cadesun for the remarks. I still stand back the experimental support showing the benefits of garlic but do apologize for the other stuff. Link to comment
MrAnderson Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 OK, that's cool.... sometimes communication on the forums can come across really poorly. If you have any data to share though, it would be interesting. However, I've heard claims that everything from ethanol to every random crap cDNA expressed in HeLa cells to almost every herbal remedy known to man "upregulates" T-cell activity. I think that's an obscenely overused and abused term/result. Just because AKR1.G.1 cells divide when I spit in a plate full of them doesn't mean anything by extension in vivo. Yes, there are some rare gems in lower-echelon journals, but usually claims of "immunoregulation" (like described above) are made by people who don't understand the limitations or technique involved in a particular assay. And if they don't understand the limitations of an immunological assay, then they certainly don't understand the complexities of a mammalian immune system. Their claims sound great to the uninformed, but trained and disciplined immunologists can't believe what some kooks get away with. Link to comment
onthefly Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 Millerlite - No worries! I give talks at scientific conferences (with Nobel lauerates in the crowd) and defend my actions and results twice a year.....I can take it! No one knows more than I that Science and Nature will publish crap My concern was that the bulk of those journals that popped up in my pubmed search were either archives or non-peer reviewed. You know that is very hard to reconcile! The biggest issue, was rather than debating, Cade and I started to rant at each other....and Like I said before....for that I'm truely sorry. I don't hold any ill will to Cade.....I kinda like it when someone makes me step back an evaluate what I said. After all this.......and AGAIN, I'm a garlic fan, have been for years and always will be! It definitely has cured my fish of ich and other ailments. Hell it may turn out to cure everything from HIV to Gout, but no one has "shown me the money". I've heard about it.....people have even said they done the search and found "X"...without posting a link for me. That means nothing to me....and frankly, it means nothing to you either does it? Like I said too, I read and was intrigued by the Lau paper on oxidative stress and NF-kB...so I will agree with you, it is not all crap! Honestly, if the info was out there that garlic "boosted the immune system" in a credible source......SHAME ON KENT FOR NOT MARKETING ON IT!!!!!! Once again, what if, the biggest effect of garlic is to causes fish (who otherwise would stop eatting and starve to death) to eat more?....More intake, more calories, more vitamins, more anti-oxidants, etc. More of the things which would aid the fish in battling these stress related infections and ailments. Thanks for coming clean on your science geek background....I like to know who we all are Thanks Neo, see you on the dark side! Link to comment
cadesun Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 miller -- no prob. i think we all have different views here, and all have access to resonable information... but like most things in science, nothing is concrete. i did do a little more digging on the issue, and was almost bored do death by some of the papers i found (i felt like i was reading for class), however most of what i found on vertebrate systems seemed pretty anecdotal. then again, there is usually some science to be found behind most anecdotes. time will tell i guess. onthefly -- i do regret to inform you that i will probably not be able to challenge you anymore, i transferred from the biology grad program into the exercise phys program. i doubt i'll be able to keep up with reading in both departments. oh well, maybe i'll do my thesis on the effects of garlic on atheletes performing timed sprints! Link to comment
onthefly Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Cade, you don't have to be a bio-weenie to talk shop my friend!! But, that being said, maybe you can help me get rid of the knee pain I'm having while running Link to comment
BimmerReefer Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by MillerLite appears to be a plethora of various studies yup definately a geek fight. Link to comment
BimmerReefer Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by MillerLite appears to be a plethora of various studies reminds me of the Three Amigos. EL GUAPO!!! Link to comment
SpitfireMk24 Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 this is my second time 'visiting' the advanced forum ( I say visiting, because I dont belong here, its just nice to try and read up on stuff ) . . . I have never experienced a heated debate about garlic . . . Im kind of scared now. Link to comment
onthefly Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 You should see us talk about water chemistry....... Link to comment
xkornstarx2 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Wow....so many advanced degrees.....such horrible spelling......oh the irony btw onthefly, its TRULY not TRUELY, fix the spelling in your sig before touting the degrees and lectures Link to comment
aquaman7 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 garlic gives my fish bad breath... Link to comment
666 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Next time you're gonna criticize people on spelling errors, try not to wait a full year after they posted it. k thanks. Link to comment
xkornstarx2 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 sorry i guess cause he wrote it a year ago its ok. thanks. Link to comment
Caesar777 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 You brought up an old thread to point out spelling errors? Wow. Maybe you should learn to use the shift button before you get on people about grammar/etc.? Now, then.... I don't know how garlic works, I don't believe the hippie mumbo-jumbo (taken from an African dialect word, "mamba-jamba") about garlic and its healing effects and immunity and all that, but I do know that the fish LOVE it. Great for getting them to eat. Link to comment
shag26272 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 wow, I can always get a good laugh on this forum lol Link to comment
onthefly Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 O Deer, Wat's a brutha gonna due.....Hopefulee Nano-Reaf will get a speelchecker soon Thank God (Sorry, I had to edit "god to God"...forgot God was proper noun and needed to be capitalized...didn't want to offend the english majors in the crowd) word has a spell checker otherwise my publications would look like a 3rd grader wrote them. Thanks Memebr #18,186......check back and see if I care enough to change my sig Link to comment
Caesar777 Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 It's spelled "TRULY", idiot! Link to comment
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