No Flow Coral?

[Broseff]

Corals for no flow, is it possible or is it a pipedream?

 

I know that a lot of soft corals shed(?) and flow helps a lot with this, and flow is like super important for sps corals.

 

But are there any corals that might survive without it?

Anyone care to chime in with reasons why corals would need flow?

[Clown79]

Corals need flow to bring food to them, remove detritus, oxygen, keep algae off of then, its part of their natural environment.

 

There is no ocean without water movement. I have never heard of a coral with no flow.

[DISQUALIFIED-QQ]

I've had duncans die on me because I was taking time off work for 2 weeks. What happened was that the system wasn't being topped off so the pumps weren't bringing any water. I was surprised the Iwaki pumps didn't overheat and die on me. Anyway, not enough water means a dry pump means no flow...dead duncans. I suspect it was detritus building up on the coral body.

[Broseff]

Alright, sounds good.

 

But I've seen reef jars that just have like air stones or just protein skimmers. It doesn't appear like either of those things provide flow, do they? 

[CD_Scapes]

31 minutes ago, Broseff said:

Alright, sounds good.

 

But I've seen reef jars that just have like air stones or just protein skimmers. It doesn't appear like either of those things provide flow, do they? 

Yes they do provide flow 

Just now, Frozen_Reef said:

Yes they do provide flow 

An air stone it literally a stone or piece of wood that provides a stream of oxygen bubbles

[Broseff]

36 minutes ago, Frozen_Reef said:

Yes they do provide flow 

An air stone it literally a stone or piece of wood that provides a stream of oxygen bubbles

I get that they provide a stream of bubbles, but that stream goes straight up. 

 

It doesn't exactly provide much horizontal flow, and doesn't purposefully push water around a tank. 

[banasophia]

Scope out this month’s featured reef bowl, I believe she’s running it with an airline and heater only:

 

 

 

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, Broseff said:

Alright, sounds good.

 

But I've seen reef jars that just have like air stones or just protein skimmers. It doesn't appear like either of those things provide flow, do they? 

Both create water movement and flow.

 

I've never seen a skimmer only on a tank, there is usually powerheads or return water movement included.

 

An air stone in a tank doesn't provide the water movement it does in a jar/vase/bowl. I can tell you that from experience.

 

There is a reason why most hobbyiests have a back up plan for power outages and usually the main concern is no flow

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, Broseff said:

I get that they provide a stream of bubbles, but that stream goes straight up. 

 

It doesn't exactly provide much horizontal flow, and doesn't purposefully push water around a tank. 

Its does create flow in pico's

[Christopher Marks]

11 hours ago, Broseff said:

I get that they provide a stream of bubbles, but that stream goes straight up. 

 

It doesn't exactly provide much horizontal flow, and doesn't purposefully push water around a tank. 

The air bubbles displace the water as they are pumped into the depths and rise up, creating circulation. Larger bubbles are required, I use just an open ended air line with no air stone in my pico reef jar, and it provides ample circulation.

[spazizz]

Xenia makes its own flow. What the reason for not wanting though?

[Broseff]

39 minutes ago, spazizz said:

Xenia makes its own flow. What the reason for not wanting though?

Just wondering. It seems like with plants, FW aquariums, and SW aquariums a lot of people have similar opinions on what to do without knowing why. In my experience some research & logic has lead to better results than listening to people spout rules of the trade without an explanation. So this thread is to see if there are any exemptions to flow, and to get the whys/hows for needing flow. 

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, Broseff said:

Just wondering. It seems like with plants, FW aquariums, and SW aquariums a lot of people have similar opinions on what to do without knowing why. In my experience some research & logic has lead to better results than listening to people spout rules of the trade without an explanation. So this thread is to see if there are any exemptions to flow, and to get the whys/hows for needing flow. 

Its not about not knowing why. We know why.

 

The ocean has constant current and the corals require it for the reasons listed in another response.

 

During power outtages, the main thing we do, is add water movement, why because its essential.

 

Without it, the corals die.

 

People have had water movement during power outages in the main display but not in the sump/back chambers- when the power goes back on, people have had issues from bacteria dying and leading to death in the main tank.

 

Stagnant water and reefs don't mix.

 

Its not a rule we make up - its their natural habitat and provides many essential needs for the ecosystem.

 

Gas exchange, oxygenation, moving food, removal of detritus etc etc.

 

Oceans, streams, lakes, rivers - all have water movement. 

 

Even in FW aquariums, water movement is important, either from a filter, air stone, c02 injection etc etc.

 

An aquarium is meant to replicate the natural environment the livestock comes from.

[mcarroll]

3 hours ago, Broseff said:

Just wondering. It seems like with plants, FW aquariums, and SW aquariums a lot of people have similar opinions on what to do without knowing why. In my experience some research & logic has lead to better results than listening to people spout rules of the trade without an explanation. So this thread is to see if there are any exemptions to flow, and to get the whys/hows for needing flow. 

If you read it online you know it's true.

 

Isn't that what we all agreed to?

 

I think you might be interested in the articles I've saved in the Flow section of my blog.

 

You can find reefs in nature that have water change rates from 100% on down....down to 0%, I'm not sure.  Most reefs are at least impacted by the effects of tidal flows...even if they are sheltered from wave action and oceanic currents.

 

I think you'll especially like the articles on "oceanic forcing" and the one that explains why some corals are funnel shaped.  Let me know!

[Broseff]

5 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Its not about not knowing why. We know why.

 

The ocean has constant current and the corals require it for the reasons listed in another response.

 

Even in FW aquariums, water movement is important, either from a filter, air stone, c02 injection etc etc.

 

An aquarium is meant to replicate the natural environment the livestock comes from.

You're not entirely correct, just because something happens in nature doesn't mean that it NEEDS to happen or that it's a requirement. It just means that it happens.

 

When it comes to FW, there's a method (walstad) that doesn't use any form of flow. There's no filter, no air stone, nothing. I've had one running for months (with plants that are normally found in moving waters) without any issue.

[Tired]

Corals are animals, which generally have higher metabolic needs than plants. Any animals you'll have in a freshwater tank are able to move around, thus generating their own flow, where (most) corals can't do that. You need something to circulate the water, to bring the oxygen to them, and to get it past the barrier around them that comes from water already being 'stuck' to them.

 

You could always test this out for yourself. Corals are about on the level of plants, in terms of the morality of potentially fatal experiments. I wouldn't add any animals with brains, just in case, but corals don't have brains. Some species might last awhile, but I wouldn't expect to have any long-term success. 

[Broseff]

1 minute ago, Tired said:

Corals are animals, which generally have higher metabolic needs than plants. Any animals you'll have in a freshwater tank are able to move around, thus generating their own flow, where (most) corals can't do that. You need something to circulate the water, to bring the oxygen to them, and to get it past the barrier around them that comes from water already being 'stuck' to them.

I really like this explanation.

 

But plants are similar in terms of their need for gases (except that they uptake CO2) and some aquatic plants do fine without flow (even ones that naturally grow in rivers. Also I'm currently testing to see if this is true with macroalgae). I imagine as gases that have been diffused in the water are used up they displace. I also would image that water on the outer edges of a tank are a different temperature than what's at the center, which would also lead to some kind of displacement. If any of that is true, then most water (in aquariums) aren't truly stagnant, there must be some small form of convection currents moving water to a degree that isn't visible.

[Tired]

The water at the outer edges being a different temperature would be pretty easy to check. It would make sense if there isn't any notable flow. 

 

If I remember right, Walstad tanks have to be stocked carefully. They're usually very lightly stocked on vertebrates, and more heavily stocked on plants. Something to consider with a Walstad- the plants are producing oxygen. Not true at night, but probably a factor during the day. One of the purposes of circulation is to help exchange oxygen with the air, and without that, your mobile animals can start to suffer as well. Freshwater tanks crash from faulty pumps, too, in the right circumstances.

 

Substances in the water will certainly try to equalize, the question is just if they equalize fast enough to compensate for the corals using them up. You could wind up with a coral that's constantly surrounded by water with just slightly too little oxygen, putting it at a stress level that doesn't kill it right away, but slowly weakens it. I would also wonder about waste products building up around the corals, without circulation to push them away. 

 

If you're already testing this with macroalgae, why not pop a hardy coral, like a cheap zoa, in there as well? I wouldn't think a small coral frag would have much impact on anything but itself one way or the other, not for the purposes of this experiment, and it's worth a try. I would suspect there are some species hardy enough to tolerate no flow, but tolerating an environment and actually doing well in it are two different things. Some corals can go a long time without dying, and also not without growing or doing much else, in less-than-good conditions.

[Broseff]

26 minutes ago, Tired said:

The water at the outer edges being a different temperature would be pretty easy to check. It would make sense if there isn't any notable flow. 

 

If I remember right, Walstad tanks have to be stocked carefully. They're usually very lightly stocked on vertebrates, and more heavily stocked on plants. Something to consider with a Walstad- the plants are producing oxygen. Not true at night, but probably a factor during the day. One of the purposes of circulation is to help exchange oxygen with the air, and without that, your mobile animals can start to suffer as well. Freshwater tanks crash from faulty pumps, too, in the right circumstances.

 

Substances in the water will certainly try to equalize, the question is just if they equalize fast enough to compensate for the corals using them up. You could wind up with a coral that's constantly surrounded by water with just slightly too little oxygen, putting it at a stress level that doesn't kill it right away, but slowly weakens it. I would also wonder about waste products building up around the corals, without circulation to push them away. 

 

If you're already testing this with macroalgae, why not pop a hardy coral, like a cheap zoa, in there as well? I wouldn't think a small coral frag would have much impact on anything but itself one way or the other, not for the purposes of this experiment, and it's worth a try. I would suspect there are some species hardy enough to tolerate no flow, but tolerating an environment and actually doing well in it are two different things. Some corals can go a long time without dying, and also not without growing or doing much else, in less-than-good conditions.

This is precisely what I was hoping to get out of posing my question! Thank you!

 

Okay, so without flow there are definetly things to address. 

 

A potential form of flow could come from inhabitants. Could that ever be enough for a coral? Could a fish, or shrimp, or what-have-you moving around circulate water enough for proper gas exchange (ie, bring oxygenated water to the coral faster than the corals use it)?

 

Also, waste build up. Could a proper CUC, with tank cleaning/water changes solve this issue? (I'm leaning towards yes).

 

I've heard of pest tanks working. Specifically tanks with Aiptasia, no flow, with a CUC. I'm assuming that in those tanks bacteria is producing the oxygen and the CUC handles waste. I imagine that microfauna (smaller pods?) freely moving around provide food. 

 

I've definetly thought about this, which is part of why I posted this question. I was looking for suggestions to test out. I imagine my CUC will handle waste, the bacteria and macros will produce oxygen, and water will displace in certain areas in small amounts. I imagine very specific corals, in certain amounts, with the right placement could work. Maybe something like a frag plug of xenia, on a rock, surrounded by macros might have the right balance of things. 

[Clown79]

11 hours ago, Broseff said:

You're not entirely correct, just because something happens in nature doesn't mean that it NEEDS to happen or that it's a requirement. It just means that it happens.

 

When it comes to FW, there's a method (walstad) that doesn't use any form of flow. There's no filter, no air stone, nothing. I've had one running for months (with plants that are normally found in moving waters) without any issue.

Thats your opinion.

 

Maybe read a book, watch documentaries on the ocean, read scientific studies and you'll learn the reason why because even after explaining why we replicate NATURE, you still prefer to believe hobbyiests have made this up.

 

Do a tank with no flow and livestock- let us know how it goes.

 

10 hours ago, Broseff said:

This is precisely what I was hoping to get out of posing my question! Thank you!

 

Okay, so without flow there are definetly things to address. 

 

A potential form of flow could come from inhabitants. Could that ever be enough for a coral? Could a fish, or shrimp, or what-have-you moving around circulate water enough for proper gas exchange (ie, bring oxygenated water to the coral faster than the corals use it)?

 

Also, waste build up. Could a proper CUC, with tank cleaning/water changes solve this issue? (I'm leaning towards yes).

 

I've heard of pest tanks working. Specifically tanks with Aiptasia, no flow, with a CUC. I'm assuming that in those tanks bacteria is producing the oxygen and the CUC handles waste. I imagine that microfauna (smaller pods?) freely moving around provide food. 

 

I've definetly thought about this, which is part of why I posted this question. I was looking for suggestions to test out. I imagine my CUC will handle waste, the bacteria and macros will produce oxygen, and water will displace in certain areas in small amounts. I imagine very specific corals, in certain amounts, with the right placement could work. Maybe something like a frag plug of xenia, on a rock, surrounded by macros might have the right balance of things. 

Good luck relying on a fish for water movement- they need flow even more than coral.

 

No flow equals to a fish sufficating.

[mcarroll]

You should look up deep sea corals....sounds like that may be what you're subconsciously trying to emulate....possibly no flow there.  

 

You also need to more fully consider what corals (or their symbionts) use flow for before you remove or replace it.  Without that info you're shooting in the dark.

 

Corals are animals – deep sea carnivorous scavengers at their roots.  

 

Corals are not plants.  

 

Their photosynthetic symbionts (dino's) are not plants either, but they bear some similarities.  I suspect their differences with plants are at least as interesting though.

 

This article might be interesting on the flow question itself: Oceanic Forcing of Coral Reefs

[Broseff]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

Thats your opinion.

 

Maybe read a book, watch documentaries on the ocean, read scientific studies and you'll learn the reason why because even after explaining why we replicate NATURE, you still prefer to believe hobbyiests have made this up.

 

Do a tank with no flow and livestock- let us know how it goes.

 

Good luck relying on a fish for water movement- they need flow even more than coral.

 

No flow equals to a fish sufficating.

I have 2 tanks up with no flow. The FW has been up for months and is based on a proven method. I've had the SW up for almost a month. Like I said not everything that happens in nature is necessary. 

 

There have been times where rules of the aquarium-keeping-trade have been proven wrong, but are still believed. Specifically revolving around recreating the environments that certain fish come from. Everyone believes that hillstream loaches NEED fast moving waters, highly oxygenated waters because they come from rivers. They only NEED highly oxygenated water because of how their gills work and stuff. Their adaptation to stick to rocks and stuff was only neceassry for them to live in fast moving waters, breeders have kept them long term (to their full life expectency) in slow moving waters (just a sponge filter). People still bellieve the rule of needing fast water, because it's all they hear and they don't understand the actual science behind it.

[Broseff]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

You should look up deep sea corals....sounds like that may be what you're subconsciously trying to emulate....possibly no flow there.  

 

You also need to more fully consider what corals (or their symbionts) use flow for before you remove or replace it.  Without that info you're shooting in the dark.

 

Corals are animals – deep sea carnivorous scavengers at their roots.  

 

Corals are not plants.  

 

Their photosynthetic symbionts (dino's) are not plants either, but they bear some similarities.  I suspect their differences with plants are at least as interesting though.

 

This article might be interesting on the flow question itself: Oceanic Forcing of Coral Reefs

I totally am shooting into the dark, that's why I have this forum. Glad for the articles and discussions that help light the way!

[natalia_la_loca]

Fwiw, I set up a jar reef with no flow a few years ago, stocked only with macro and zoas. The zoas looked desperately unhappy the entire time and I took down the system after a month or so. Sample of one, but that was my experience. I wonder if xenia might do better since it pulses.

[Tired]

Wasn't there a tank journal on here of someone trying to make a tiny closed system where xenia was the only source of flow? I don't remember how that worked out. I'm not sure how well it was working at the start, I don't recall it doing anything wild one way or the other, but it was an interesting idea. Of course, xenia has to be happy to pulse (and will never pulse in some tanks, despite seemingly being happy), so you'd have to make sure it had enough oxygen to recover from shipping and perk up enough to start moving.