Copper Power and Cloudy Eye

[Ocean_dreamer89]

Hey y'all! I'm looking for some guidance.

I currently have a Coral Beauty in a QT. I got the fish on 2/14/20 and a few days later noticed some white spots on it's forehead area. I wanted to give the fish a chance to acclimate to its new environment and it was eating like a pig and swimming fine, so I just observed it for the first week (I was also waiting on some supplies). Anyway, a few days after that the spots fell off. I started copper treatment with Copper Power on 2/21/20 and am currently on day 3 of that treatment. Here's comes the problem. This morning I noticed that its right eye is extremely cloudy and it has white stringy poop. I know these are treatable but I am unsure how to proceed since there is currently copper in the tank. The fish up until this morning was still eating fine. It ate a little this morning, but its appetite definitely decreased. I'm still currently in the buildup period and the copper is currently at 0.75 ppm.

I'll post pic with the white spots and the cloudy eye.

White Spots taken on 2/15
 

  

Cloudy Right Eye/Clear Left Eye taken on 2/23

 

   

The last two pictures have the food in the water, my normal procedure is to let it eat for a little bit and remove the uneaten food with a fish net.

[Humblefish]

Looks like he has an eye infection and possibly internal parasites. Although the white stringy poo could just be due to the copper messing with his GI tract.

 

I would focus on the infection for right now, and you can dose erythromycin in conjunction with copper. 👍

[Ocean_dreamer89]

Thank you for replying!!  This morning the eye cleared up some but still a decreased appetite.  Good to know about erythromycin.  I don't have any on hand so I would have to pick some up.

 

I spoke with the guy that I bought the fish from yesterday and he suggested that I ditch the copper and start the TTM and dose PraziPro at the end.  His opinion was that the copper was causing the stress to the fish resulting in these secondary issues.  What are your thoughts on this?

[Humblefish]

23 hours ago, Ocean_dreamer89 said:

His opinion was that the copper was causing the stress to the fish resulting in these secondary issues.  What are your thoughts on this?

I would probably go with Hybrid TTM: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/407149-hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites/

 

The 30 minute peroxide baths should help with the eye infection as well.

[Ocean_dreamer89]

Awesome!! I’ll read through it and check it out. Thank you so much

[mcarroll]

On 2/23/2021 at 12:57 PM, Ocean_dreamer89 said:

I started copper treatment with Copper Power on 2/21/20 and am currently on day 3 of that treatment. Here's comes the problem. This morning I noticed that its right eye is extremely cloudy and it has white stringy poop.

Copper affects the appetite, stress (from being moved and from the treatment) affects digestion, so he has both going on.  These symptoms aren't from the fish (ie some new disease to treat) they are from what you've done so far.

 

What are you offering for food?  If you can offer anything better or tastier or whatever, try it.  Brine shrimp.  Flake food.  Anything.  Whatever it'll go for.  If it does stop eating, that's usually the end of the road, so our fingers are crossed!!  👍

[mcarroll]

On 2/23/2021 at 12:57 PM, Ocean_dreamer89 said:

I currently have a Coral Beauty in a QT. I got the fish on 2/14/20 and a few days later noticed some white spots on it's forehead area.

BTW, was this a fish from online or were you able to observe it at the LFS before buying?  If it was at the LFS, how did he (and the rest of the tank) look before purchase?

 

Also, how well is your QT outfitted – hopefully better than the typical bare tank+heater+filter+barely-there-biofilter?  Can you share a pic? 

 

If the tank is too stark/bare/new then the QT system itself was also feeding into the fish's stress level from the get-go.  This could have been the root cause of the spots showing up in the first place.

 

 

[Ocean_dreamer89]

On 3/3/2021 at 6:51 AM, mcarroll said:

Copper affects the appetite, stress (from being moved and from the treatment) affects digestion, so he has both going on.  These symptoms aren't from the fish (ie some new disease to treat) they are from what you've done so far.

 

What are you offering for food?  If you can offer anything better or tastier or whatever, try it.  Brine shrimp.  Flake food.  Anything.  Whatever it'll go for.  If it does stop eating, that's usually the end of the road, so our fingers are crossed!!  👍

Yeah if I had to guess stress from the beginning of the copper treatment is what sent it downhill.  I had it in the QT for about a week before starting any treatment and it was eating fine.  I've tried frozen, flake, and a small piece of nori.  Frozen seems to work the best but it still not eating as much as it was initially. The frozen food I use is marine cuisine which is a mixture of several different foods.

On 3/3/2021 at 6:58 AM, mcarroll said:

BTW, was this a fish from online or were you able to observe it at the LFS before buying?  If it was at the LFS, how did he (and the rest of the tank) look before purchase?

 

Also, how well is your QT outfitted – hopefully better than the typical bare tank+heater+filter+barely-there-biofilter?  Can you share a pic? 

 

If the tank is too stark/bare/new then the QT system itself was also feeding into the fish's stress level from the get-go.  This could have been the root cause of the spots showing up in the first place.

 

 

I got the fish from a LFS and it looked great at the store! It wasn't until a couple days after I brought it home that I noticed the white dots.  I've since gone with Humblefish's suggestion and ditched the copper for a hybrid TTM.  It seems to be doing much better with this technique.  The cloudy eye has gone away completely and I've seen it take a bite or two of food.  Not as much as I'd like to see or as much as it was that first week, but better than nothing.

 

The QT I had it set up in before I started TTM was a ten gallon fairly basic system.  HOB filter, heater, and PVC.  For biological filter, I had some media that been in my bio cube for over a year.  It had never been used in a medicated tank before and was in one of the back sections.  After I fed the fish, I would let it eat for a little bit and then remove any uneaten food with a net.

 

 

Overall, since I've changed course I have been more happy with TTM rather than copper.  This is my first time treating a fish with medications so it's definitely a learning experience!  

 

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, Ocean_dreamer89 said:

TTM

100% better in terms of not poisoning the fish.  

 

But TTM has its own unique stresses on the fish as they are subjected to so much handling, including being caught repeatedly in a net and lifted out of the water.  Research shows net catching is particularly stressful and takes up to months for the fish to recover from..and TTM requires how many net catchings??

 

If you can catch and move them without using a net – without touching them at all (keeping them in water) in fact –  it would be ideal.  It is possible.

 

You might have to get creative to make TTM work without a net though since *I think* the object is to take as little water with the fish as possible.  

 

There are other methods of accomplishing the same things as TTM too – using a thin sand bed to accumulate tomonts and then vacuuming it out every three days (vs moving the fish) might be one for you to consider – this has even been suggested for use in active reef tanks.

 

Something to keep in mind is that your fish will already have immunity from this first round of infections.  You've already learned that sometimes the treatment is too much stress to be worth doing....the fish can be better off without it.  That time is getting closer the longer the fish goes without getting worse.  (That means it's getting better.)

 

 

[Ocean_dreamer89]

19 hours ago, mcarroll said:

There are other methods of accomplishing the same things as TTM too – using a thin sand bed to accumulate tomonts and then vacuuming it out every three days (vs moving the fish) might be one for you to consider – this has even been suggested for use in active reef tanks.

Interesting!! I’ll have to do some research on this!! 
 

As far as moving the fish, for now if I can catch them with my hand, I’ll do that. If not I have a small colander. Trying to avoid the net if I can. And yes, from everything I’ve read about TTM, the goal is to transfer as little water as possible. Considering the stress of moving from tank to tank, they seem to be handling it well. Much better than the copper at least! 
 

I’m glad you shared some more information.  There’s always room for improvement and education with this hobby!  I think I’m going to keep the pace I’m at for now since they’ve just completed transfer number 3.