Need new tank advice, please

[Watson315]

I’ve been out of the hobby for about 5 years. My first and only tank was a very successful 29g bio cube- picture attached.

 

i want to upgrade to something a little bigger, with an actual sump.  I’ve been looking all over and have been debating between a waterbox marine 35.1 and Red Sea max 170.  Neither is exactly what I want though.

 

The first problem is that i really want a stand that’s 30” high, and it seems like they’re almost all 36”.  Unless I order a custom stand or make it myself, it doesn’t appear to be something easy to find.

 

The second problem is that waterbox discontinued the marine 45.2, which is probably what I would get if available, despite the stand height of 36”.

 

There is a local LFS in San Jose that offers a cheaper line or Japanese tanks.  They come with a 30” stand, low iron glass, and a sump, and they have a 45 gallon tank with almost the perfect dimensions for what I’m looking for, it’s 32 x 18 x 20 high.  The problem with this tank is it’s only drilled with two holes- one is 1” and the other is 3/4”, so I’d have to run the return line over the back, and the emergency overflow would only be 3/4”.

 

i don’t have any experience with a sump, but I’m gonna learn quick.  Just not sure how big a deal only having the emergency overflow being 3/4” is.  Any advice or suggestions for tanks would be much appreciated.  Excited to get back into the hobby.

[TerraIncognita]

Hey Watson,

 

Glad you're getting back in! I just got back in a few months ago myself.

 

Take a look at the Red Sea Reefer XL200, that's my next and final researched out upgrade. Wish i had again researched a little harder this time, i didn't realize that even in 5 years some cool and new thinks had upgraded in the hobby.

[Watson315]

Thanks, yeah, that’s a nice tank.  Guess the stand is 34” high, which isn’t too bad.  Probably leaning toward the Red Sea, either 170 or 200.  Definitely open to other thoughts or ideas though.

[mcarroll]

On 7/26/2020 at 3:28 PM, Watson315 said:

make it myself

I'd suggest this.  Get help if you want/need to.

 

On 7/26/2020 at 3:28 PM, Watson315 said:

 32 x 18 x 20 high

A 40 Breeder or 50 Breeder would be good options.  Marineland apparently has a "53 Gallon" that's another inch taller....closer to 60 gallons, actual.

 

On 7/26/2020 at 3:28 PM, Watson315 said:

The problem with this tank is it’s only drilled with two holes- one is 1” and the other is 3/4”

Use the 3/4" for the return and the 1" for the drain.  Scrap the rest of the plan.

 

There's nothing wrong with running the return over the back if you wanted to use both drilled holes for drains to accommodate a little more flow. (The drain could be done that way as well if you just had a non-drilled tank.)  

 

But the whole "emergency drain" idea is unneeded in 99.9% of all tanks, so don't sweat over it.   A 1" gravity-powered drain will handle the 200 GPH or so that the sump will require without any issues.

 

Rhetorical question:  What emergency is the drain supposed to be for?  None.

 

Most people use those "extreme overflows" for noise avoidance...hardly an emergency.  The noise is usually caused by running too much flow in the first place.  You can simply avoid doing that – you have powerheads!  😉

 

There's nothing that blocks drains or otherwise causes them to fail on a regular basis in this hobby, so there's no real emergency to plan for....other than what is already accounted for in the basic overflow design.  (Which you don't need since your tank is drilled.)

 

The folks that more or less invented this emergency drain concept were over-driving their plumbing systems on purpose (even running pressure-rated pumps in many instances), so they really had something to worry about in terms of likely failures.   

 

Check out https://blog.marinedepot.com/education-center/charts-diagrams/durso-herbie-bean-animal-overflow

 

None of those should be necessary in the modern age of reefing, now that we have powerheads and that return pump is just flowing the sump now, not the corals too.

 

Most tanks are not designed "at the edge of the envelope" with an over-stressed plumbing system like that – nor should they be.

 

That said, if you just want to build a crazy drain system just for the fun of it, that's always an option.  🙂

[mcarroll]

Have you thought of parting together a system for yourself vs the pre-assembled kits you mentioned?

[TerraIncognita]

As a note to all the comments above.

 

Of course building a tank is the #1 choice. Its most customizable and more cost effective, by maybe $500 maybe $700 compared to red sea, including that you can actually put everything EXACTLY where you want it, how YOU want it in your tank, sump, refuge, etc.

 

The question I asked myself though was the convenience of it. you never mentioned if you're on a budget or what's going on.

 

Do you have the downtime to build an entire tank with plumbing? Your initial post seemed like you were researching how to buy something more AIO or pre-set up.

 

If you want something pre-built. I feel you RedSea or Innovative Marine, are your 2 best bets. I haven't seen any waterboxes in person, but just from my personal research, that's what I recommend, a lot of other "pre-built" tanks are missing components to me that I wouldn't spend $1,000 on to not just spend the $1,500 and get the things I want in it.

 

Really it's a question of $$$ and Time. I work a day job and separately co-own and manage 2 businesses, so building a tank, would've taken me probably 2-3 months to get exactly how I wanted it.

 

My patience is also nill for that type of time when I want a tank to go now! The other thing you could do is get a smaller cheaper tank again like the bio-cube, get your sea legs wet and tingly again, and then build yourself a custom tank over the next months bit by bit, this also gives you time to really test the plumbing, and check everything you want to make sure it's working before you add a bunch of livestock and at that point it's too late! In-fact custom building like this, after you scape, and once you get your cycle going, you'll know in the first week or two if your plumbing works efficiently without being watched, while the tank is cycling, before you've added any live stock, and WORST CASE SCENARIO, YOU LOSE SOME SALTWATER AND HAVE TO EMPTY IT AND RE-PLAN! WHAT A GOOD THING TO KNOW! That's what my buddy did and custom built a 200G that is beautiful, but he had a nice little nano the whole time that kept him patient. You can pick up a fluval 13.5, cycle it with live rock and bacteria, and grab a couple clowns within 1 week if you do it right for about $200

 

So, it's really about what are YOU trying to solve in getting a fish tank. What concerns and worries do you have? so we can help address those to lead you towards something that you'll be happy with in the end.

 

 

[mcarroll]

On 7/26/2020 at 3:28 PM, Watson315 said:

My first and only tank was a very successful 29g bio cube- picture attached.

If you aren't going A LOT bigger, then I think it's worth pointing out that you will have even more success in a BioCube this time around than last time – you have all that experience backing you up now.

 

So why not consider another BioCube?

 

On 7/26/2020 at 3:28 PM, Watson315 said:

i want to upgrade to something a little bigger, with an actual sump.

Begs the questions of "how little is little?"  and "why a sump since you did so well without?"

On 7/26/2020 at 3:28 PM, Watson315 said:

I’ve been looking all over and have been debating between a waterbox marine 35.1 and Red Sea max 170.  Neither is exactly what I want though.

A 170 has a display volume of only 34 gallons....bigger "technically" by 10 gallons than your old system, but functionally still about the same class of tank.

 

The larger BioCube is actually 32 Gallons these days....looks like about $350 or $500 with stand.

 

34 vs 32 🤷‍♂️  

 

That's not a vote against those "slightly larger" systems (which are very nice, if that's what you're looking for), but just another nudge to look again at the BioCube that was working great for you last time around – it was a simpler and less expensive setup that obviously performed well for you.  That's a winning ticket.

 

There's nothing particularly limiting about the "all in one" concept these days that suggests an absolute need for a sump.

 

Just to pile on with a couple of examples...

 

For one, I've got a 125 Gallon "all in one" running right now that I upgraded to from a long-term sump-based setup with two 36" display tanks.  I used a Tunze Reefpack 500 to do the AIO....Tunze makes two smaller sizes for smaller tanks...so you can make just about any tank into an "all in one"...and as far as I'm concerned, the bigger the better.

 

For one closer to the scale you're considering, a CHEAP 40 Breeder ([36x18x16]/231=45 gallons) from the LFS can be hooked up with a Reefpack 250 and for about $300 you have a custom "all in one" that has a nice space for your heater and ATO sensor to hide out.  

 

If you wanted to run it without a skimmer (not my recommendation) then you can just get the Model 3162 filter unit from the Tunze Reefpack kit and still get a nice filter and a nice hiding spot for heater and ATO sensor for even less total $.

 

You can scale that Reefpack model (or just the filter) up to about a 50 gallon tank.  For tanks much bigger than 50 I'd switch to the Reefpack 500, which actually comes with the high end Tunze ATO....or at least go with the filter from that kit (though it has no space for a heater like the medium sized unit...only a space for the ATO sensor).

 

(My vote, not that it matters, would be to go ≥50 if there's any way you can so that this really feels like an upgrade to you....but also skip the requirement for a sump if you can.  And I'll be quiet now.  Whew!)

[Watson315]

Really appreciate the responses and ideas from everyone.  I’m actually gonna go with a small AIO (waterbox 10 cube), tunze 9001, and AI prime, with live rock from Gulf coast, just to satisfy me in the short term.  Just a desktop setup, probably LPS dominated.
 

And in the next month or two I’m gonna start working on a 50 gallon build for an octopus tank.  Definitely gonna build my own stand.  Think I want a sump this time just cause it gives you so much more space.  Thinking I’ll keep an octopus for a year or two and then turn it over into a reef tank.  Maybe I’ll do a 40 breeder and 20 gallon sump.  I enjoy tinkering, so it’ll probably be fun to put it all together myself.  Fortunately, money isn’t really a concern.

[TerraIncognita]

2 hours ago, Watson315 said:

Really appreciate the responses and ideas from everyone.  I’m actually gonna go with a small AIO (waterbox 10 cube), tunze 9001, and AI prime, with live rock from Gulf coast, just to satisfy me in the short term.  Just a desktop setup, probably LPS dominated.
 

And in the next month or two I’m gonna start working on a 50 gallon build for an octopus tank.  Definitely gonna build my own stand.  Think I want a sump this time just cause it gives you so much more space.  Thinking I’ll keep an octopus for a year or two and then turn it over into a reef tank.  Maybe I’ll do a 40 breeder and 20 gallon sump.  I enjoy tinkering, so it’ll probably be fun to put it all together myself.  Fortunately, money isn’t really a concern.

Sounds smart.

 

This 40G is fire IMO.

 

https://www.marinedepot.com/mini-40-external-overflow-aquarium-nuvo-ext-40-gallons-innovative-marine

 

Good luck with the waterbox, it might sound silly, but if you put a little frag rack in there, you could start growing, feeding and caring for your corals and then just move them once you build the other one out. That way you can get a head start on the mini-frag game, grab some super tiny ones for $15-20 and then grow em with a couple clowns and a tomini bristletooth, go bare bottom and just make it a Frag w/ LR & 3 Fish tank lol. Then once you're 40 is up, scape it, cycle it, and then throw them all in! you can also then scape ahead of time based on the frags you have and where you want them to go.

 

I think you'll enjoy growing the coral on the Frags over the next 2-3 months, and that way also you can just get the corals you really want now! the way you said "just get some LPS" like " sigh guess I'll settle" was sad ahaha, with the AI Prime you can absolutely grow SPS in that 10Gallon.

 

Almost wish I had done something like this now instead myself.... lol.. damn you impulse.

 

Good luck my friend. have fun.

 

 

[Watson315]

Thanks!  Yeah, I’ve seen that 40”.  Definitely not a bad option.  Might get exactly that.  I just finished building a small stand for the 10g cube, so I’m more confident on building a larger stand for a bigger tank.  Thinking I’ll go 36 wide, 24 deep, 30 high, just so it can accommodate a wide range of options.

 

Excited just to get some water in this 10g.  I am gonna use this one to grow out some coral and basically seed the bigger tank with live rock once it’s all up and running.  I don’t how well coral will do with an octopus, but I also know octopus don’t live very long, so I’m sure the next tank is gonna have coral before too long.

[Watson315]

On 7/29/2020 at 3:06 PM, mcarroll said:

A 170 has a display volume of only 34 gallons....bigger "technically" by 10 gallons than your old system, but functionally still about the same class of tank.

you’re right, I’m gonna get at least a 40, probably closer to 50, and maybe even a 60.

On 7/29/2020 at 3:06 PM, mcarroll said:

 

But also skip the requirement for a sump if you can.  

But I want a sump so I feel like a real reefer lol.  Idk, I like the idea of having so much extra space and a cleaner setup.

[Watson315]

On 7/30/2020 at 2:47 PM, TerraIncognita said:

 and a tomini bristletooth

a tang in a 10g?  This is a joke?  Surely, not so much could have changed in 5 years 😂

On 7/30/2020 at 2:47 PM, TerraIncognita said:

Good luck my friend. have fun.

 

 

Thanks for all the advice, from everyone.  It’s really helped refine my ideas and plan.  

1. Keep tinkering with the 10, being really careful about what I add and only getting really nice coral frags

1. Build the next custom stand 36x24x30
2. Decide on a tank- 50-60 range

3. Build out the plumbing, equipment, and everything 

4. Cycle it and try to find somewhere that can ship me an abdopus aculeatus
5.  Once I’ve satiated my curiosity about keeping an octopus, it’ll become a big reef

[TerraIncognita]

7 hours ago, Watson315 said:

a tang in a 10g?  This is a joke?  Surely, not so much could have changed in 5 years 😂

Thanks for all the advice, from everyone.  It’s really helped refine my ideas and plan.  

1. Keep tinkering with the 10, being really careful about what I add and only getting really nice coral frags

1. Build the next custom stand 36x24x30
2. Decide on a tank- 50-60 range

3. Build out the plumbing, equipment, and everything 

4. Cycle it and try to find somewhere that can ship me an abdopus aculeatus
5.  Once I’ve satiated my curiosity about keeping an octopus, it’ll become a big reef

Hahaha yes you can keep a tang in a 10G If and ONLY because you have an exit plan.

 

as juveniles a tang will happily live in a smaller tank but you’re getting/building a bigger one. A Tomini could easily live in a 50G for years just Fine. Maybe it would outgrow a 50 after 3-4 years but they’re the smallest of tangs. You’d have to build bigger by then or bring em back to LFS

[Tired]

Yeah, don't buy a tang for your 10gal. Buy a tang when you know you have a tank big enough to house it for at least a few years. It's a bad idea to buy a fish for something you're meaning to do, but have not yet done, because plans change. Besides, even a baby tang benefits from a lot of space- no need to cram one in a 10gal. Especially not a recently cycled 10gal that you're growing corals in. 

[mcarroll]

Agreed....buy for the current tank....goes for gear and livestock.  👍

[Tamberav]

A tang in a 10g.... Gross. Only if it's a temperarily hospital tank. 

 

I always figured an octopus could go down the overflow and escape if you had a sump? They can just squeeze through anything their beak can go through so I assumed they need a 100 percent enclosed system.

[Watson315]

5 hours ago, Tamberav said:

A tang in a 10g.... Gross. Only if it's a temperarily hospital tank. 

 

I always figured an octopus could go down the overflow and escape if you had a sump? They can just squeeze through anything their beak can go through so I assumed they need a 100 percent enclosed system.

No, you just have to mesh or sponge the overflows.  And duck tape down the lid lol.  I don’t think they could squeeze through the slits on most overflows anyway.

[Watson315]

On 8/2/2020 at 1:29 PM, Tired said:

Yeah, don't buy a tang for your 10gal. Buy a tang when you know you have a tank big enough to house it for at least a few years. It's a bad idea to buy a fish for something you're meaning to do, but have not yet done, because plans change. Besides, even a baby tang benefits from a lot of space- no need to cram one in a 10gal. Especially not a recently cycled 10gal that you're growing corals in. 

Agreed.  Just going with two baby clowns in the 10g.  The next tank is definitely happening though.  Starting the stand this weekend.  36x24x30, so I should have a lot of options as far as tanks go.  Thinking of going with something between 50-75g.  Here’s a pic of the 10g and stand I built last weekend.  Waiting on a custom cabinet door and the gulf coast live rock to get here this week.

[Tamberav]

43 minutes ago, Watson315 said:

No, you just have to mesh or sponge the overflows.  And duck tape down the lid lol.  I don’t think they could squeeze through the slits on most overflows anyway.

The octopuses I see posted on Facebook are always tiny so that is what I am picturing. Sounds really cool. Will it be a tropical or a temperate one?

[Tamberav]

36 minutes ago, Watson315 said:

Agreed.  Just going with two baby clowns in the 10g.  The next tank is definitely happening though.  Starting the stand this weekend.  36x24x30, so I should have a lot of options as far as tanks go.  Thinking of going with something between 50-75g.  Here’s a pic of the 10g and stand I built last weekend.  Waiting on a custom cabinet door and the gulf coast live rock to get here this week.

Looks great! I wish I had the tools to do stands.

[mcarroll]

I think I heard octopi can fit through pretty much anything their beak will fit through.

[Tired]

Yep, they'll do that. Bit by bit, just kinda wriggle out. If their beak can't fit through, though, they can't get out. 

 

There's all kinds of good stories floating around about them escaping in public aquaria. Usually to get into another tank and eat something. Lots of cases of them getting out, eating something from an adjacent tank, and then going back home. At least one story where the octopus unlocked its own locked tank lid, unlocked the lid on a tank with some crabs, ate its fill, then re-locked both the crab tank and its own tank as it went back. Another where an octopus evidently memorized the patrolling schedule of the night guard, as it was always in its tank (or hiding) when the guard came by, and they didn't catch it going back and forth until the schedule changed. They're incredibly smart animals, and IMO there should be a law that you always have to provide them with good enrichment, if you're going to keep one. Though they'll do that themselves, to some extent- they'll go find their own enrichment, or make it by breaking things, if they're bored enough!

[Watson315]

24 minutes ago, Tired said:There's all kinds of good stories floating around about them escaping in public aquaria. Usually to get into another tank and eat something. Lots of cases of them getting out, eating something from an adjacent tank, and then going back home. At least one story where the octopus unlocked its own locked tank lid, unlocked the lid on a tank with some crabs, ate its fill, then re-locked both the crab tank and its own tank as it went back. Another where an octopus evidently memorized the patrolling schedule of the night guard, as it was always in its tank (or hiding) when the guard came by, and they didn't catch it going back and forth until the schedule changed. They're incredibly smart animals, and IMO there should be a law that you always have to provide them with good enrichment, if you're going to keep one. Though they'll do that themselves, to some extent- they'll go find their own enrichment, or make it by breaking things, if they're bored enough!

That’s exactly why I want one, they’re smart.  And I have the time to devote to keeping one occupied.

 

1 hour ago, Tamberav said:

Looks great! I wish I had the tools to do stands.

Thanks!  All I used was a circular saw and drill.  I designed it in such a way that I wouldn’t need a miter saw or anything like that.  Was actually pretty easy.

[Watson315]

1 hour ago, Tamberav said:

The octopuses I see posted on Facebook are always tiny so that is what I am picturing. Sounds really cool. Will it be a tropical or a temperate one?

Tropical.  The abdopus oculeatus is from south east Asia, like Indonesia.  They’re also not nocturnal, like a lot of octopi, so they’re active during the day, which is nice.

[Watson315]

Well, the stand is built.  Just waiting on some custom cabinet doors to get here.   Now I have to decide what tank to get.  I like the IM 50 lagoon as far as size.  It’s 30x24x16.  I’ve only seen it with an external overflow, and it’s $750, plus 150 shipping.

I got a price on a custom acrylic tank.  30x24x18, for about 500.  I can even go up to 33 or 36 long if I want.  Shipping is 250, so not a lot cheaper total, 750 vs 900, but at least with the custom tank I’m getting an internal overflow, exactly what I want, and it’s a little cheaper.

 

i like that the tank isn’t as heavy also, because it’ll be easier to set up.  I know acrylic is going to get scratched really easy, but I’m thinking that if it does then I’ll just have to replace it in a two or three years.  I’ll have to move the tank at some point anyway.  And I feel like acrylic will have less distortion, so it’ll look better early on, until it gets too scratched up.  I think I can live with that.

 

Curious if anyone has any other suggestions on tanks.  Or where to get the tank.  
 

Other equipment I’m thinking of going with is the bubble magus curve 5 protein skimmer and the Fiji 20 advanced reef sump 2nd gen.

 

Also, I’m kinda pissed the AI 16HD doesn’t have weather like clouds or lightening, (my fault for not making sure) so I’m thinking of using this on the bigger tank, since it won’t matter with an octopus, and getting a new light for the 10 gallon.  A new light with weather effects.  Radion?  Kessil?