32 gal biocube Gha help

[Jran3498]

Hello everyone,

I am a long time reader but this is my first post as I am truly stuck. A little background to my algae problem. I have a 32 gal biocube that has been set up since April 2019. I have had no issues with any algae really until about August I started noticing gha starting to grow on my rocks. I was keeping up with weekly 5 gal water changes using distilled gallon water jugs from Walmart and still do them now weekly. I cut back on my feeding as I had higher nitrates at the time to every other day. I began scrubbing the algae weekly upping my cuc etc. The algae has spread to just about every rock and on the substrate. Once I get the upper hand, a week later the algae is back and I am spending hours pulling it out scrubbing etc. I have tried to combat it with setting up a mini refugium which has been growing well since septemberish, and about a month ago I began dosing nopox as my nitrates were still high and I am starting to get desperate. My tank specs are the following:
32 gal biocube
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
ph 8.0
1430 mag
alk 8
calc 440
phos 0
salinity 1.025
ai prime hd running saxby modified 2pm-11pm with whites turned down
ato running kalk w gallon jugs from walmart
intank filter with floss, refugium, carbon and purigen (which i change once a month)
tunz 9001 skimmer
sicce 1.5 return with icecap gyre 1k running random flow 40%
carib sea fugi pink deep sand bed and rock from my lfs
probably about 10 assorted snails and 10 hermits (I cant keep snails alive for some reason)
2 clowns
1 sailfin blenny
1 pink line wrasse
1 cleaner shrimp
1 long spine urchin
1 emerald crab

I think my nitrates and phos are false readings due to the algae still thriving and all my corals look good except i have noticed my gsp has lost its bright green color and is more purple now and my torch seems a little receded but all other corals (hammers, zoa, leather, bta are doing well). I feed them once a week I recently reduced nopox to .5 ml a day versus 1.0 ml due to nitrates reading 0 and am starting to feed fish every day again. I thought I was on the right path as coralline algae was beginning to start growing in the tank but this algae seems to be getting out of hand. I am not sure what to do or if this is just a phase in the tank but I am looking for any input that you guys have I miss when my tank looked a lot cleaner and it is frustrating seeing it grow back weekly
thanks for reading!

[Aquarium Care Center]

I would have suggested that you start with GFO (granular ferric oxide, filter media) for phosphate removal before using something like NoPox. NoPox definitely works but GFO is easier to manage with similar results and not as technical. Both nitrate and phosphate would be needed in your system in order for these dosages to work efficiently and depending on how you long you've been dosing for, the NoPox may have not even started to work as it can take a number of weeks to kick in. Normally I would suggest NoPox to our customers after they are already using GFO and still have phosphate issues.

 

Lighting could be another cause, especially when mixed with nutrients. I am familiar with the Saxby program but I am unsure of the levels of red and green that you have set - both colors aide with algae growth so I would recommend removing those all together for now.

 

You are absolutely right when you say that the GHA is consuming the nutrients before you are able to get an accurate testing. I would also consider that the rock you are using could be causing some issues as well. Without the certainty of knowing its source 100%, there is really no way to say where it came from and what type of rock it actually is. Some rocks can be GHA prone. Some stores will buy back rock from customers to resell - this seems like a good idea until you consider all of the possible variables at play (pests, possible medications used, phosphate prone/decomposing rock, etc). Again, just something to consider but nothing to get nervous about. 

[Jran3498]

Awesome thank you for the reply. I’ll take out the red and greens all together and I’ll pick up some gfo. I’ve been running Nopox  for probably about a month. Is it ok to just stop it or do I slowly have to get off it ? Hopefully it’s just a phase and it’s not my rock then I’d really have no idea what to do lol 

[Clown79]

Having 0 phosphates and higher nitrates isn't optimal.

 

Often an imbalance in nutrients can lead to problems.

 

You need your phos to be higher not only for cheato to continue to grow but for the corals.

 

Over use of media and filteration can become an issue.

 

The tank being 1 yr is still going through changes and stages.

 

When you scrub your rocks, are you doing it in tank or out of the tank?

[Jran3498]

Both my readings are 0 how would I raise phosphates safety ? Feeding more ? I scrub most of the rocks in a bucket with water from the water change but two of them I scrub in the tank because they are big but suck up the algae as best as I can 

[Joboo]

You have any turbo Snails? These guys are pretty good at managing GHA outbreaks. I also have had great success with Sea Hares, however they ONLY eat Algae and will starve without a consistent food source so you would have to feed them dried algae or seaweed to supplement.

[Jran3498]

I had a few turbo snails probably have a few left but for some reason I can never seem to keep them alive. I was thinking about getting a sea hare as there is plenty of it in there for him to eat. Maybe I’ll pick one up 

[Joboo]

16 minutes ago, Jran3498 said:

I had a few turbo snails probably have a few left but for some reason I can never seem to keep them alive. I was thinking about getting a sea hare as there is plenty of it in there for him to eat. Maybe I’ll pick one up 

It's always better to find root cause, but thats sometimes easier said than done. This could be a good workaround that will give you a breather while you find what's really going on. If at some point the Sea Hare runs out of food, just make sure to supplement. Or, even better, join a local Marine aquarium society and loan him/her out.

[Jran3498]

Sounds good. I’ll run to my lfs after work and get one and a few more snails. I’m not sure what the cause could be. I was feeding every other day. Feeding only my bta twice a week no clue where the algae is getting the nutrients from. Should I pick up some gfo while I’m there too ? I think I might stop dosing nopox as I read everywhere that it jusy causes issues

[Joboo]

You really don’t need to feed your BTA. You might want to think about reducing or even stopping that. 
 

 

[Clown79]

5 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

Both my readings are 0 how would I raise phosphates safety ? Feeding more ? I scrub most of the rocks in a bucket with water from the water change but two of them I scrub in the tank because they are big but suck up the algae as best as I can 

You're stripping your tank with using Nopox, purigen, chaeto, and a skimmer.

 

Reduce the media usage and you will have nutrients.

 

You will only further aggravate the situation with using gfo.

 

You have no nutrients in the tank, why would you use more media like gfo?

 

 The continuing of no nutrients will lead to dino's. 

 

What exactly is your maintenance routine for waterchanges?

How often is floss changed? Do you use any sponges?

Do you vacuum the sand, Turkey baste rocks?

[Jran3498]

34 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

You're stripping your tank with using Nopox, purigen, chaeto, and a skimmer.

 

Reduce the media usage and you will have nutrients.

 

You will only further aggravate the situation with using gfo.

 

You have no nutrients in the tank, why would you use more media like gfo?

 

 The continuing of no nutrients will lead to dino's. 

 

What exactly is your maintenance routine for waterchanges?

How often is floss changed? Do you use any sponges?

Do you vacuum the sand, Turkey baste rocks?

Ah ok that makes sense. I was under the impression that because the algae still grows weekly that there is still a problem with nitrates and phosphates? That’s why I was throwing all that media at the tank, but I will stop nopox now to start. 
 

 I change the floss twice a week I don’t have any sponges. I vacuum the sand and blow off the rocks during water changes and even with my flow I still get some stuff coming off the rocks. I clean the in tank media rack weekly and scrub the glass as well as the rocks. Clean ato tank probably once a month or so Check rear chambers for anything and it stays pretty clean back there. 

[mcarroll]

13 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

I have a 32 gal biocube that has been set up since April 2019.

[....]
ph 8.0
1430 mag
alk 8
calc 440
phos 0
salinity 1.025

Seems like everything but nutrient levels are OK.

 

Low nutrients aren't a way out of an algae bloom, BTW.

 

You got into it by stocking the tank so fast IMO.   It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a lux meter (or PAR meter) and measure the output of your lights.  Too much light can encourage algae as well.

 

13 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

ato running kalk w gallon jugs from walmart
[....]

probably about 10 assorted snails and 10 hermits (I cant keep snails alive for some reason)
2 clowns
1 sailfin blenny
1 pink line wrasse
1 cleaner shrimp
1 long spine urchin
1 emerald crab

How stable is your alkalinity?

 

"Assorted Snails" is not what you're after.....you need herbivores and you don't need much of anything else.  1 or 2 hermits would probably do the trick for scavengers...the rest should be dedicated herbivores.  Can you tell us what you have specifically?

 

From that list, the urchin is the only algae eater I see, and he specializes in coralline algae.  Definitely not good enough.

 

Emerald crabs "can help" but they're crabs.....omnivores.

 

13 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

I think my nitrates and phos are false readings due to the algae still thriving and all my corals look good except i have noticed my gsp has lost its bright green color and is more purple now and my torch seems a little receded but all other corals (hammers, zoa, leather, bta are doing well).

 

Do yourself a favor and let go of that nonsense thinking.  😉  The only way your readings can be false is if you run the test wrong or your test kit is expired.

 

Your GSP and Torch are telling you the same thing.  Levels ARE zero and it IS a problem.

 

Algae don't have much trouble competing at low nutrient levels...and if they do have trouble, there's a different algae that will take their place and do better. ( ie Dino's)

 

Stop with all the excessive filtration and that might be all you need to do....leave the skimmer running and disable/remove everything else.

 

(And check on the lighting level as mentioned earlier.)

13 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

I recently reduced nopox to .5 ml a day versus 1.0 ml due to nitrates reading 0 and am starting to feed fish every day again. I thought I was on the right path as coralline algae was beginning to start growing in the tank but this algae seems to be getting out of hand. I am not sure what to do or if this is just a phase in the tank but I am looking for any input that you guys have I miss when my tank looked a lot cleaner and it is frustrating seeing it grow back weekly
thanks for reading!

Eek -- it gets worse!  Definitely quit the organic carbon dosing.

 

5 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

Both my readings are 0 how would I raise phosphates safety ? Feeding more ? I scrub most of the rocks in a bucket with water from the water change but two of them I scrub in the tank because they are big but suck up the algae as best as I can 

 

You are encouraging the algae by being so harsh with your rocks.   You're basically resetting the age of the rock to Zero when you do that, making it RIPE for colonization by algae.

 

From now on, pluck algae out of the tank by hand.  Use a bowl of tap water to put the algae in while you're working and to rinse your fingers before going back into the tank for more.  This will prevent many algae fragments from drifting around the tank and finding places to sprout.

 

Snails are memory based AND they can't eat anything full grown as they have tiny rasping mouths.  Full grown algae also tends to be unpalatable. 

 

So when you clean a spot in the tank, place a snail right on it so they know it's bare and ready for them to keep clean.

 

If the algae in that spot grows back, you know you need more snails as the one you placed wasn't able to complete his grazing circuit before the algae grew too large for him to eat.  So if this happens, add three or four more herbivorous snails....don't be afraid to go big with Turbos for at least some of your snails.

 

You want UP TO two snails per gallon or so.....don't hesitate to add more until you get control.  Just don't add too many at once.

 

You should be able to have this licked within a couple of additions of snails IMO.

 

2 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

Sounds good. I’ll run to my lfs after work and get one and a few more snails. I’m not sure what the cause could be. I was feeding every other day. Feeding only my bta twice a week no clue where the algae is getting the nutrients from. Should I pick up some gfo while I’m there too ? I think I might stop dosing nopox as I read everywhere that it jusy causes issues

Feeding so many animals in such a new tank is the deal.  The tank just couldn't consume that many nutrients in the state it was in. 

 

But everything on a reef is about conserving nutrients, even when there is too much. 

 

So algae, which can grow AND spread fast, steps in to absorb as much nutrient as possible.  This keeps the nutrients on the reef where they can be used vs washing them out to sea. 

 

Herbivores eat the algae and poop-feed all the surrounding organisms.  Even if nutrient levels are super low in the water, the corals and everything else can be happy because algae is kept low so it doesn't take over and the nutrients in it are freed up little by little by the herbivore population.

 

Algae feeds off of any form of nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate...probably others too) and it can use phosphate from the water OR the substrate.  Corals are much the same, but do not have access to substrate-bound phosphates....that's why some of your corals are already showing signs of suffering while the algae is going like gangbusters.

 

(There are no "low nutrient" reefs in the wild BTW.)

 

IMO a proper cleanup crew is probably all you're really missing.   A little more elbow-grease and a few additions of snails should bring the tank around to where you want it.

[Jran3498]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

Seems like everything but nutrient levels are OK.

 

Low nutrients aren't a way out of an algae bloom, BTW.

 

You got into it by stocking the tank so fast IMO.   It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a lux meter (or PAR meter) and measure the output of your lights.  Too much light can encourage algae as well.

 

How stable is your alkalinity?

 

"Assorted Snails" is not what you're after.....you need herbivores and you don't need much of anything else.  1 or 2 hermits would probably do the trick for scavengers...the rest should be dedicated herbivores.  Can you tell us what you have specifically?

 

From that list, the urchin is the only algae eater I see, and he specializes in coralline algae.  Definitely not good enough.

 

Emerald crabs "can help" but they're crabs.....omnivores.

 

 

Do yourself a favor and let go of that nonsense thinking.  😉  The only way your readings can be false is if you run the test wrong or your test kit is expired.

 

Your GSP and Torch are telling you the same thing.  Levels ARE zero and it IS a problem.

 

Algae don't have much trouble competing at low nutrient levels...and if they do have trouble, there's a different algae that will take their place and do better. ( ie Dino's)

 

Stop with all the excessive filtration and that might be all you need to do....leave the skimmer running and disable/remove everything else.

 

(And check on the lighting level as mentioned earlier.)

Eek -- it gets worse!  Definitely quit the organic carbon dosing.

 

 

You are encouraging the algae by being so harsh with your rocks.   You're basically resetting the age of the rock to Zero when you do that, making it RIPE for colonization by algae.

 

From now on, pluck algae out of the tank by hand.  Use a bowl of tap water to put the algae in while you're working and to rinse your fingers before going back into the tank for more.  This will prevent many algae fragments from drifting around the tank and finding places to sprout.

 

Snails are memory based AND they can't eat anything full grown as they have tiny rasping mouths.  Full grown algae also tends to be unpalatable. 

 

So when you clean a spot in the tank, place a snail right on it so they know it's bare and ready for them to keep clean.

 

If the algae in that spot grows back, you know you need more snails as the one you placed wasn't able to complete his grazing circuit before the algae grew too large for him to eat.  So if this happens, add three or four more herbivorous snails....don't be afraid to go big with Turbos for at least some of your snails.

 

You want UP TO two snails per gallon or so.....don't hesitate to add more until you get control.  Just don't add too many at once.

 

You should be able to have this licked within a couple of additions of snails IMO.

 

Feeding so many animals in such a new tank is the deal.  The tank just couldn't consume that many nutrients in the state it was in. 

 

But everything on a reef is about conserving nutrients, even when there is too much. 

 

So algae, which can grow AND spread fast, steps in to absorb as much nutrient as possible.  This keeps the nutrients on the reef where they can be used vs washing them out to sea. 

 

Herbivores eat the algae and poop-feed all the surrounding organisms.  Even if nutrient levels are super low in the water, the corals and everything else can be happy because algae is kept low so it doesn't take over and the nutrients in it are freed up little by little by the herbivore population.

 

Algae feeds off of any form of nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate...probably others too) and it can use phosphate from the water OR the substrate.  Corals are much the same, but do not have access to substrate-bound phosphates....that's why some of your corals are already showing signs of suffering while the algae is going like gangbusters.

 

(There are no "low nutrient" reefs in the wild BTW.)

 

IMO a proper cleanup crew is probably all you're really missing.   A little more elbow-grease and a few additions of snails should bring the tank around to where you want it.

Thank you very much for the detailed response. You have made me feel a lot better about this ! Crazy how I just started throwing everything at the tank and it made the situation a lot worse. Always learning !

 

I’ll stop the nopox purigen and Carbon. I’ll donate my excess hermits to the lfs and grab some more turbos, and I really had no idea scrubbing did that so I’ll stop that Sunday when I do my water change and just pluck. My alk usually stays between 8-10 not so stable but I notice it changes when I do a water change. I use reef crystals as my salt. So might have to dial that too. Would you suggest feeding every day still ? I have one Mexican turbo maybe 2 turbos and the rest are Ceriths I believe ? When it came to snails I kinda just picked a bunch of different kinds and lost track of what I have left. Again thank you for your time !

[mcarroll]

I'd consider switching from kalkwasser in the ATO to something that you can dose with more precision.  Two-part or one of the other MANY alternatives would work.  (Brightwell and Tropic Marine both back all-in-one products like Liquid Reef or Bio Calcium you can consider....among others.)  

 

And consider a doser, or at least daily manual doses to lock down stability vs dosing weekly or less.

 

And you should be targeting the same levels your salt has with your dosing so there's no swing (or only a minimal one) when you do a water change.

 

(Test your newly mixed saltwater a few water changes in a row so you have a good idea of how its levels are.  I even recommend re-testing after dosing at least a few times so you can see/confirm what effect the dose has.)

 

Kalk is great in it's way, but it does have caveats like this.

 

I'd probably feed at least 3 times a week, but everyday should be fine too as long as you aren't overfeeding.

 

A couple of Turbo snails and a pack of Ceriths are a great start -- just add more if it looks like they aren't keeping up with the algae...and make sure YOU keep the existing algae short enough for them to eat.  They can't eat mature algae -- only nubs like what's left after you clean a spot.

[Jran3498]

I was looking into two part dosing regularly, as that would make the system more stable but that’s another animal that I got to look into with how much calc and alk my tank uses on a daily basis to keep the levels up. Also a weird feeling taking out the carbon and Purigen everyone seemed to swear by it but I suppose it has a time and place for when my nitrates and phosphates go up thank you again for all the help 

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

I was looking into two part dosing regularly, as that would make the system more stable but that’s another animal that I got to look into with how much calc and alk my tank uses on a daily basis to keep the levels up. Also a weird feeling taking out the carbon and Purigen everyone seemed to swear by it but I suppose it has a time and place for when my nitrates and phosphates go up thank you again for all the help 

I used to use a lot of media thinking it was going to help me. Most of us have done this.

 

My nitrates were ultra low and 0 phos.

My coral growth was slow and after 4yrs, I got dino's.

 

I now use only floss and a small bag of carbon regularly(bag myself so I control quantity).

I like carbon, it helps reduce toxins from corals effecting eachother.

 

 

Phosguard I have on hand if needed. 

 

Since increasing nutrients and using less media, I have better growth and very little algae. 

 

Using media isn't bad, it can help but from what I have seen, I think it should be used upon a need to basis.

 

[Jran3498]

2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I used to use a lot of media thinking it was going to help me. Most of us have done this.

 

My nitrates were ultra low and 0 phos.

My coral growth was slow and after 4yrs, I got dino's.

 

I now use only floss and a small bag of carbon regularly(bag myself so I control quantity).

I like carbon, it helps reduce toxins from corals effecting eachother.

 

 

Phosguard I have on hand if needed. 

 

Since increasing nutrients and using less media, I have better growth and very little algae. 

 

Using media isn't bad, it can help but from what I have seen, I think it should be used upon a need to basis.

 

Awesome thank you for the input. I truly thought it was something you absolutely needed so it’s good to know that’s not the case. I’m scheduled for a water change tomorrow should I do it or wait a week ? I removed the media and added snails tonight but skipping the water change may help increase nutrients ?

[jambon]

I am running the same tank ... only it is stock... I have an algae problem as well. 

I use hydrogen peroxide directly into the tank using a syringe and, I turn the flow off and try to get it right at the roots. I may do 2 10 ml . I try to get at spots where the algae is bothering my corals. The patches will be clear in a few days. 

This is just a bandaid solution but it helps for now. 

  I tried holding back on feeding the fish and corals and nothing changed so I just feed them both, fish daily and the corals 2 or 3 times weekly. My tank is 6 months old and it is coming under control. Time is a big factor... 

Have you looked into carbon dosing? With your mega filtration it may be worth looking into. Having a deep sand bed though would slow the process down.

[mcarroll]

22 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

I was looking into two part dosing regularly, as that would make the system more stable but that’s another animal that I got to look into with how much calc and alk my tank uses on a daily basis to keep the levels up.

You should be doing the same thing kind of test-and-dose setup with your kalkwasser.  Right? 😉

 

Dosing without testing is going to cause some alk variations almost no matter what you dose with.

 

Dialing in a dose isn't too hard.  You basically...

• get your levels up to "correct" via water changes (or however you want) and then that's your baseline. 
  • Test the next day to see how much the tank has used in a day. 
  • Test again two days later and you'll see how much the tank used in two days.  Etc.   
  • Wait a week and test, divide by 7, and you know how much the tank used per day over a week. 
• There are even multiple ways to do it correctly!  Easy peesy, right?   😁

NOTE:  Alkalinity may be the only thing you see changing at first until total demand from coral growth gets higher.  Ca and Mg may appear not to change at all during this time.  (Don't dose anything that isn't indicated by your tests....as long as they aren't expired and you're doing it right, trust the tests.)

 

If you wanted to stick with Kalk there's another wrinkle in how you prepare your kalkwasser:

• Use a formula...
• ...and accurate measurements
• ...know how much powder and water to mix
• ...and check your stock water with a conductivity meter to assure it's really saturated. (not optional until you've got a solid preparation routine that's tried and tested)

Once you have a solid recipe and good result, use this to calculate a dose:

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

(works for lots of chems)

 

Alternately, use a formula to mix kalk and vinegar together, which will make a neutral, easy to use solution:

http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html

 

This is my favorite way to do kalk, but I also mostly just used kalk to cut down on the need for 2-part dosing.  (I quit doing that just to simplify my setup when we had a baby.....system had to be self-sufficient for a few years.)

 

22 hours ago, Jran3498 said:

Also a weird feeling taking out the carbon and Purigen everyone seemed to swear by it but I suppose it has a time and place for when my nitrates and phosphates go up thank you again for all the help 

There's a deep, deep undercurrent of nutrient number-chasing built into the online version of this hobby...you won't find that undercurrent much in books though.  (Read books!!)

 

Somewhere along the line the idea crept into the online hobby that we need to have water with no nutrients.

 

The twist of this information into our "ULNS" concept of reefing isn't IMO from the science.

 

Especially when you turn around and (just for example) look at the range of articles I have on my blog indexed under Phosphates.

 

There really isn't even a suggestion across any of the articles that levels close to zero would be beneficial.

 

It's just the opposite.  Deficiencies are what cause MOST of the known problems with corals.

 

There IS a suggestion that nitrate moderation is important. 

 

It's OVERTLY CLEAR that it's important to prevent phosphates from going too low.

 

An article I meant to save, but haven't yet is the one I think @seabass found...

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

...where they cultured Acro frags under INSANELY high phosphate levels, they grew fine with no apparent signs of stress, good poly extension, etc. 

 

If anything they looked healthier.....even active growth tips were fully populated with tissue and pigments instead the normal state of growth tips being light-colored, or white, with only very thin tissue. 

 

Even under those insane conditions....even with their stated bias of looking for problems at the top of the article....the worst they could find to explain their hypothesis is that corals growing "so well, so fast" have less dense skeletons.  They go on to presume that will make them susceptible to storm damage (not something they tested) and thus that it's an indication of unfitness/lack of health.

 

I think their bias is off.....corals don't ONLY spread by growth and sexual reproduction.  They also spread by fragmentation. 

 

We'll assume that brittle corals are more susceptible to breakage and give them that point (it's been studied elsewhere). 

 

But to assume that corals which are successfully spreading their genes by fragging also happen to be unfit (i.e. unhealthy) seems spurious.

 

On the contrary, under elevated phosphate conditions THAT would apparently be the definition of fit.

 

There would be SOME sign of stress if things were otherwise IMO.

 

(BTW, here's a similar study that has the whole text available: Tissue and skeletal changes in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata Esper 1797 under phosphate enrichment (PDF link here...or check Google)

Edited January 5, 2020 by mcarroll
forgot to delete a part

[Jran3498]

45 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

You should be doing the same thing kind of test-and-dose setup with your kalkwasser.  Right? 😉

 

Dosing without testing is going to cause some alk variations almost no matter what you dose with.

 

Dialing in a dose isn't too hard.  You basically...

• get your levels up to "correct" via water changes (or however you want) and then that's your baseline. 
  • Test the next day to see how much the tank has used in a day. 
  • Test again two days later and you'll see how much the tank used in two days.  Etc.   
  • Wait a week and test, divide by 7, and you know how much the tank used per day over a week. 
• There are even multiple ways to do it correctly!  Easy peesy, right?   😁

NOTE:  Alkalinity may be the only thing you see changing at first until total demand from coral growth gets higher.  Ca and Mg may appear not to change at all during this time.  (Don't dose anything that isn't indicated by your tests....as long as they aren't expired and you're doing it right, trust the tests.)

 

If you wanted to stick with Kalk there's another wrinkle in how you prepare your kalkwasser:

• Use a formula...
• ...and accurate measurements
• ...know how much powder and water to mix
• ...and check your stock water with a conductivity meter to assure it's really saturated. (not optional until you've got a solid preparation routine that's tried and tested)

Once you have a solid recipe and good result, use this to calculate a dose:

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

(works for lots of chems)

 

Alternately, use a formula to mix kalk and vinegar together, which will make a neutral, easy to use solution:

http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html

 

This is my favorite way to do kalk, but I also mostly just used kalk to cut down on the need for 2-part dosing.  (I quit doing that just to simplify my setup when we had a baby.....system had to be self-sufficient for a few years.)

 

There's a deep, deep undercurrent of nutrient number-chasing built into the online version of this hobby...you won't find that undercurrent much in books though.  (Read books!!)

 

Somewhere along the line the idea crept into the online hobby that we need to have water with no nutrients.

 

The twist of this information into our "ULNS" concept of reefing isn't IMO from the science.

 

Especially when you turn around and (just for example) look at the range of articles I have on my blog indexed under Phosphates.

 

There really isn't even a suggestion across any of the articles that levels close to zero would be beneficial.

 

It's just the opposite.  Deficiencies are what cause MOST of the known problems with corals.

 

There IS a suggestion that nitrate moderation is important. 

 

It's OVERTLY CLEAR that it's important to prevent phosphates from going too low.

 

An article I meant to save, but haven't yet is the one I think @seabass found...

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

...where they cultured Acro frags under INSANELY high phosphate levels, they grew fine with no apparent signs of stress, good poly extension, etc. 

 

If anything they looked healthier.....even active growth tips were fully populated with tissue and pigments instead the normal state of growth tips being light-colored, or white, with only very thin tissue. 

 

Even under those insane conditions....even with their stated bias of looking for problems at the top of the article....the worst they could find to explain their hypothesis is that corals growing "so well, so fast" have less dense skeletons.  They go on to presume that will make them susceptible to storm damage (not something they tested) and thus that it's an indication of unfitness/lack of health.

 

I think their bias is off.....corals don't ONLY spread by growth and sexual reproduction.  They also spread by fragmentation. 

 

We'll assume that brittle corals are more susceptible to breakage and give them that point (it's been studied elsewhere). 

 

But to assume that corals which are successfully spreading their genes by fragging also happen to be unfit (i.e. unhealthy) seems spurious.

 

On the contrary, under elevated phosphate conditions THAT would apparently be the definition of fit.

 

There would be SOME sign of stress if things were otherwise IMO.

 

(BTW, here's a similar study that has the whole text available: Tissue and skeletal changes in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata Esper 1797 under phosphate enrichment (PDF link here...or check Google)

That’s a lot of great information you gave me. And I thought I kinda grasped but this reefing thing but  I realized is that it’s constantly a learning process. I might just do two part because i feel like it will be more stable so I’m going to look into dosers after I get the algae situation under control. Today instead of a full water change I’m gonna do a few gallons from pulling the algae out.  Hopefully it all works out for the better. Thanks !

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You should be doing the same thing kind of test-and-dose setup with your kalkwasser.  Right? 😉

 

Dosing without testing is going to cause some alk variations almost no matter what you dose with.

 

Dialing in a dose isn't too hard.  You basically...

• get your levels up to "correct" via water changes (or however you want) and then that's your baseline. 
  • Test the next day to see how much the tank has used in a day. 
  • Test again two days later and you'll see how much the tank used in two days.  Etc.   
  • Wait a week and test, divide by 7, and you know how much the tank used per day over a week. 
• There are even multiple ways to do it correctly!  Easy peesy, right?   😁

NOTE:  Alkalinity may be the only thing you see changing at first until total demand from coral growth gets higher.  Ca and Mg may appear not to change at all during this time.  (Don't dose anything that isn't indicated by your tests....as long as they aren't expired and you're doing it right, trust the tests.)

 

If you wanted to stick with Kalk there's another wrinkle in how you prepare your kalkwasser:

• Use a formula...
• ...and accurate measurements
• ...know how much powder and water to mix
• ...and check your stock water with a conductivity meter to assure it's really saturated. (not optional until you've got a solid preparation routine that's tried and tested)

Once you have a solid recipe and good result, use this to calculate a dose:

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

(works for lots of chems)

 

Alternately, use a formula to mix kalk and vinegar together, which will make a neutral, easy to use solution:

http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html

 

This is my favorite way to do kalk, but I also mostly just used kalk to cut down on the need for 2-part dosing.  (I quit doing that just to simplify my setup when we had a baby.....system had to be self-sufficient for a few years.)

 

There's a deep, deep undercurrent of nutrient number-chasing built into the online version of this hobby...you won't find that undercurrent much in books though.  (Read books!!)

 

Somewhere along the line the idea crept into the online hobby that we need to have water with no nutrients.

 

The twist of this information into our "ULNS" concept of reefing isn't IMO from the science.

 

Especially when you turn around and (just for example) look at the range of articles I have on my blog indexed under Phosphates.

 

There really isn't even a suggestion across any of the articles that levels close to zero would be beneficial.

 

It's just the opposite.  Deficiencies are what cause MOST of the known problems with corals.

 

There IS a suggestion that nitrate moderation is important. 

 

It's OVERTLY CLEAR that it's important to prevent phosphates from going too low.

 

An article I meant to save, but haven't yet is the one I think @seabass found...

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

...where they cultured Acro frags under INSANELY high phosphate levels, they grew fine with no apparent signs of stress, good poly extension, etc. 

 

If anything they looked healthier.....even active growth tips were fully populated with tissue and pigments instead the normal state of growth tips being light-colored, or white, with only very thin tissue. 

 

Even under those insane conditions....even with their stated bias of looking for problems at the top of the article....the worst they could find to explain their hypothesis is that corals growing "so well, so fast" have less dense skeletons.  They go on to presume that will make them susceptible to storm damage (not something they tested) and thus that it's an indication of unfitness/lack of health.

 

I think their bias is off.....corals don't ONLY spread by growth and sexual reproduction.  They also spread by fragmentation. 

 

We'll assume that brittle corals are more susceptible to breakage and give them that point (it's been studied elsewhere). 

 

But to assume that corals which are successfully spreading their genes by fragging also happen to be unfit (i.e. unhealthy) seems spurious.

 

On the contrary, under elevated phosphate conditions THAT would apparently be the definition of fit.

 

There would be SOME sign of stress if things were otherwise IMO.

 

(BTW, here's a similar study that has the whole text available: Tissue and skeletal changes in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata Esper 1797 under phosphate enrichment (PDF link here...or check Google)

Marketing of products in this industry is another factor of over use of media/equipment.

 

It's all sold as a need but it's not always needed

 

Like the old sales tactic of you must have a large tank, skimmer, and sump...I think mNy of us have proved this as a falsehood.

 

I have had pretty high phos and no issues with corals or algae. If anything my tank looked it's best.

 when my nitrates go up or there is an imbalance of nitrates vs phos, I have had more algae. 

[mcarroll]

That's a good analogy!

 

What started off as "bigger tanks are easier" (true) kinda transmogrified into "small tanks aren't possible" (silly) somewhere along the line.

 

I think there has been (among other things) a supporting trend of more andmore smaller critters being collected over the years. 

 

Hard to have a jar tank when a three-bar Damselfish is the smallest critter available! 😉

 

These days, of course, there's a HUGE range of fish and inverts for nano-sized tanks...

 

(Folks would keep things like aiptasia in tiny tanks, so there have been exceptions along the way.)

[Joboo]

A lot of great advice in this thread. Unfortunately you can do everything right, follow all recommendations,  and STILL not get to the root of this if it’s coming directly from the rock. I’ve been in this position in years past where the only way I was able to completely solve the problem was to do a complete Replacement of the rock. Fortunately with small tanks it’s not that expensive to do(Relatively speaking). Not saying you should do this now, but it is possible you may get to the point where nothing will work and you will have to either keep up with the workarounds or replace the rock. 

[Jran3498]

I hope it doesn’t get to that point lol just going to try and get these nitrates back up and hope the manual removal and addition to cuc will help get through this phase ! Maybe focusing on stability with dosing could also assist w this