Newly Cycled Tank with High Nitrates

[Whitnano]

Hi All! I've been lurking around for quite some time, reading all that I can read, and researching. I finally took the plunge and started my first saltwater tank - fish only for now. I have a 20H gallon, live sand with dry rock. I started the cycle over a week ago with Bio Spira and Dr. Tim's Ammonium Chloride.  According to my testing, I believe the cycle is complete (ammonia is converted to nitrites and then to nitrates, in about 24 hours), however, my nitrates were a little on the high end - between 40-80 ppm. I did a water change yesterday, probably around 15%, and it dropped it down to 20. Is that still too high to start adding fish? Should I do another water change first, to lower them more? Also, my ph is running between 7.8-8.0, is that too low? I plan on starting with a pair of Occ Clownfish, then adding a cleaner shrimp, and possibly a royal gramma, at some point. And of course CUC as needed. Thanks!!

[Tired]

I'd suggest another water change. It's hard to do too many water changes, and you want to keep your nitrates nice and low. 

 

If you're not aiming for a reef tank, that pH should work out all right. 

 

What test kit are you using? You'll want something as accurate as possible for everything.

[Ratvan]

15 minutes ago, Whitnano said:

Hi All! I've been lurking around for quite some time, reading all that I can read, and researching. I finally took the plunge and started my first saltwater tank - fish only for now. I have a 20H gallon, live sand with dry rock. I started the cycle over a week ago with Bio Spira and Dr. Tim's Ammonium Chloride.  According to my testing, I believe the cycle is complete (ammonia is converted to nitrites and then to nitrates, in about 24 hours), however, my nitrates were a little on the high end - between 40-80 ppm. I did a water change yesterday, probably around 15%, and it dropped it down to 20. Is that still too high to start adding fish? Should I do another water change first, to lower them more? Also, my ph is running between 7.8-8.0, is that too low? I plan on starting with a pair of Occ Clownfish, then adding a cleaner shrimp, and possibly a royal gramma, at some point. And of course CUC as needed. Thanks!!

Depends on the type of fish that you choose for the FOWLR, most people that I know run their tanks between 10-20. A Couple run theirs at 40-80

[Whitnano]

3 hours ago, Tired said:

I'd suggest another water change. It's hard to do too many water changes, and you want to keep your nitrates nice and low. 

 

If you're not aiming for a reef tank, that pH should work out all right. 

 

What test kit are you using? You'll want something as accurate as possible for everything.

I'm using the API Master test kit. 

3 hours ago, Ratvan said:

Depends on the type of fish that you choose for the FOWLR, most people that I know run their tanks between 10-20. A Couple run theirs at 40-80

Starting with 2 clownfish, then will eventually add maybe a royal gramma. And definitely want a cleaner shrimp as well.

[Whitnano]

Also, I know it isn't good to add too many fish at once, but all of the online stores have such high shipping minimums, it would make it so much easier if I could order all that I'm wanting all at once.  I live in a rural area, and the closest thing I have to a LFS is a Petco that is about 20 minutes away. Every time I've been there lately, they have maybe one clownfish, and a few other fish, and maybe a couple shrimp. Very low selection. I did talk to a worker there this weekend, that told me the best times to come after their shipments, so maybe they are just picked over already when I go in. I plan on calling later this week, after they get their shipment, and asking what they received. 

[Tired]

If you monitor closely, are prepared to do big water changes, and get small fish, you should be OK adding a few at a time. If I were you, I"d add a cleanup crew first, or at least the beginnings of one, and feed the tank like you have fish in it for awhile longer. That would help get your biological filtration a bit more established and ready to handle multiple additions. 

[Whitnano]

3 minutes ago, Tired said:

If you monitor closely, are prepared to do big water changes, and get small fish, you should be OK adding a few at a time. If I were you, I"d add a cleanup crew first, or at least the beginnings of one, and feed the tank like you have fish in it for awhile longer. That would help get your biological filtration a bit more established and ready to handle multiple additions. 

What kind of CUC would you suggest for a 20 gallon? I was thinking 5 astrae snails, 5 ceritus, and 3 nassarius, but wasn't sure. And I was on the fence about hermit crabs. Not sure what to think about those. From what I've read, some people love them, and some people hate them.

[Ratvan]

Is there any reason for going FOWLR? CuC is more of an as and when addition I'd do 2 of each to start see how they do and add more of whatever is needed as and when they're needed. You WILL need to manually remove any algae but this gets less and less as your numbers of CuC increase to your tanks needs. 

[Whitnano]

3 minutes ago, Ratvan said:

Is there any reason for going FOWLR? CuC is more of an as and when addition I'd do 2 of each to start see how they do and add more of whatever is needed as and when they're needed. You WILL need to manually remove any algae but this gets less and less as your numbers of CuC increase to your tanks needs. 

Wanted to start out with FOWLR until I get "my feet wet" in the saltwater hobby, and get the hang of everything. Would love to have corals at some point. Just don't want to take on too much too fast. 

[Ratvan]

7 minutes ago, Whitnano said:

Wanted to start out with FOWLR until I get "my feet wet" in the saltwater hobby, and get the hang of everything. Would love to have corals at some point. Just don't want to take on too much too fast. 

I started on a much smaller scale (2.5g) to take this for what it is. My 1st additions were macro algae, "easy corals" and CuC. Some "easy" corals arent beginner friendly (pests) then eventually fish. I still have some of the macro, couple of corals ( I made mistakes) the original CuC and the fish. 

 

The corals and the macros use the fish waste and leftover food from the feeding as well as nitrates. As do the macros. It can make it easier to balance things out. 

 

Also I think it would be easier to keep the salinity and parameters from the get go instead of having to figure out the tank all over again. 

 

My 2p.

[Clown79]

It's very normal to see nitrates that high after cycling with dry rock/ammonia dosing.

 

Its recommended to do 50- 80% waterchange after cycling to get the nitrates down to about 10. 

 

If your nitrates are 20 another good size waterchange will drop it further.

[nickfarmer]

You can also talk to you LFS and see if they can order you spesifc fish.  Sometimes they will do this.

[Whitnano]

2 hours ago, nickfarmer said:

You can also talk to you LFS and see if they can order you spesifc fish.  Sometimes they will do this.

Will petco do that? That’s the only place close to me. 

3 hours ago, Clown79 said:

It's very normal to see nitrates that high after cycling with dry rock/ammonia dosing.

 

Its recommended to do 50- 80% waterchange after cycling to get the nitrates down to about 10. 

 

If your nitrates are 20 another good size waterchange will drop it further.

Thanks. I think I will do that, and see where that puts me. 

[Whitnano]

4 hours ago, Ratvan said:

I started on a much smaller scale (2.5g) to take this for what it is. My 1st additions were macro algae, "easy corals" and CuC. Some "easy" corals arent beginner friendly (pests) then eventually fish. I still have some of the macro, couple of corals ( I made mistakes) the original CuC and the fish. 

 

The corals and the macros use the fish waste and leftover food from the feeding as well as nitrates. As do the macros. It can make it easier to balance things out. 

 

Also I think it would be easier to keep the salinity and parameters from the get go instead of having to figure out the tank all over again. 

 

My 2p.

Hmm interesting. Definitely something to think about. Thank you. 

[Tired]

Petco very likely will not be able to specially order things. That's actual, non-chain LFS places that can do that sometimes. It's worth asking, but don't count on it. 

[Gravity]

4 hours ago, Clown79 said:

It's very normal to see nitrates that high after cycling with dry rock/ammonia dosing.

 

Its recommended to do 50- 80% waterchange after cycling to get the nitrates down to about 10. 

 

If your nitrates are 20 another good size waterchange will drop it further.

I would do another water change or two. Best to get nitrate under control before you get any live stock. Nitrate under 10 is a good goal. 

 

You can always order one fish and snails/hermit. Then do a second order later with the other fish and shrimp. Only concern is fish aggression on the new arrival but others have had no problem doing this. If you do get two clowns at the same time just make sure they are small and it shouldn’t be a problem. 

 

As for snails I would probably suggest 2 astrae (or banded trochus) they are big eaters. Then probably 5 cerith and 3 nassarius should be fine. You can always add more later as needed. 

[Whitnano]

10 hours ago, Gravity said:

I would do another water change or two. Best to get nitrate under control before you get any live stock. Nitrate under 10 is a good goal. 

 

You can always order one fish and snails/hermit. Then do a second order later with the other fish and shrimp. Only concern is fish aggression on the new arrival but others have had no problem doing this. If you do get two clowns at the same time just make sure they are small and it shouldn’t be a problem. 

 

As for snails I would probably suggest 2 astrae (or banded trochus) they are big eaters. Then probably 5 cerith and 3 nassarius should be fine. You can always add more later as needed. 

I had read that clownfish were better in pairs and it was better to get them together, because of aggression, so I was afraid of not getting them at the same time.  

[Whitnano]

I will do another water change this week and see what that brings the nitrates down to. Maybe I will order two clownfish and CUC to start with, and just pay shipping....how has everyone's experience been with online ordering? I work during the day, so I would have to try to coordinate my lunch break with delivery to be home to accept the package. How long of a time frame do you have with the fish being in the bags? My other option would be to have them shipped to my office and at least have them in the AC until I get home. (I live in MO so it's in the 90's right now)

[Clown79]

26 minutes ago, Whitnano said:

I will do another water change this week and see what that brings the nitrates down to. Maybe I will order two clownfish and CUC to start with, and just pay shipping....how has everyone's experience been with online ordering? I work during the day, so I would have to try to coordinate my lunch break with delivery to be home to accept the package. How long of a time frame do you have with the fish being in the bags? My other option would be to have them shipped to my office and at least have them in the AC until I get home. (I live in MO so it's in the 90's right now)

You don't have to get clowns at the same time. Clown pairing can occur with or without being added at the same time.

Choosing the right sizes is important no matter when clowns are added.

 

 

I wouldn't add 2 fish to a newly cycled tank, adding 2 fish and a cuc at once is a lot on the system.

[Whitnano]

Thank you all for your replies and input! I'm going to do another water change this week, and see what my parameters are then. Hopefully will be able to add "Nemo" this weekend. It's my son's 5th birthday, and he's been so excited to be able to add fish.

[mcarroll]

On 9/16/2019 at 5:44 PM, Whitnano said:

Wanted to start out with FOWLR until I get "my feet wet" in the saltwater hobby, and get the hang of everything. Would love to have corals at some point. Just don't want to take on too much too fast. 

Good instinct to take your time!

 

IMO fish are at least as hard as corals though, so don't assume you're taking the easy route.  In many cases they can turn out be much, much more difficult.

 

The current trend is not that great for newbies.....buying groups of fish online, sight-unseen.  It is better to buy one fish at a time locally after significant amounts of you personally observing them for quality and health over the course of at least a week....more if you can.  If you're doing this part right, you don't get to take home every fish you want.....some of them will be bought out from under you during that week+ while you're watching them.  This is OK....let em go and wait for the next.  Your tank only gets more and more ready for the next fish while you wait....so it's all good.  Just somewhat a test of patience.  😉 

 

One thing is about fish is their size vs other animals you could start with. 

 

Fish are large phagotrophs -- all about eating, peeing and pooping -- so when you add them it's naturally a disruption to the current tank's levels.   It's very easy to "do what everyone is doing" and end up creating a large algae bloom when you add your fish, for one example complication.

 

By comparison, snails are tiny and herbivorous -- they don't require food to be added to the tank, and they have a proportionally small metabolism.  So you can, for example, add one without even noticing his effect on the tank.

 

Corals, for comparison, are autotrophic and can actually use up excess nutrients in the water just like a plant or algae, so they have an almost totally positive effect on any tank -- even helping to prevent outbreaks of so-called "pest" organisms. 

 

Stony corals specifically do require some testing and dosing to keep them happy as they remove some critical elements from the water (calcium and alkalinity) as they grow their skeletons, which left unchecked will ruin the water's chemistry. 

 

Soft and leather corals are simpler to take care of and will be fine with light and fish waste and a good water change regime.

 

All types of coral will need excellent flow too, which can be considered optional for some types of fish-only tank.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Also, consider paging through the articles I've saved in the fish section on my blog.....there are probably at least a few that will catch your interest.  Here's a few suggestions to get you started, post here or there if you have any questions or comments on any of them:

• Aquarium History
• Book: Biology of Stress In Fish – Fish Physiology (Chapter 12 – Stress Management And Welfare)
• Red fish, blue fish: trade-offs between pigmentation and immunity in Betta splendens
• Innate immunity of fish (overview)
• Why are there so few fish in the sea?

[Whitnano]

Update: We added a cleaner shrimp (Shrimpy Doodle Dandy), (because they were out of clowns), a couple of weeks ago. He's done really well and is so fun to watch. A week ago today, we brought home a clown. He has stayed to the back right corner of the tank, and found a little "cave" in that area, that he hides in. A couple of days after we brought him home, we got up that morning, and I kind of freaked, because we couldn't see him. I checked the filter, the floor, until I realized he was way back under his little rock just enough, where we couldn't see him. For several days, I couldn't even tell if he was eating or not. I started off feeding flake food, which the shrimp loves. I then ordered some sinking pellet food because it didn't seem like Nemo was getting any. I noticed yesterday, it did look like he was eating the pellets. Although, I had to drop them right above where he was, he doesn't swim around the rest of the tank at all. Will that change? I've always heard what neat fish they were to watch, but he really doesn't hardly come out at all. Would it help if I added another one? He is smaller than the cleaner shrimp, so I'm wondering if that scared him, the shrimp being in the tank first....

 

My water parameters have not changed, since I did my last water change. So they are good. I did go home for lunch today, and noticed small brownish spots on the sand and a few on the rocks, which I am guessing is my first diatom bloom. I'm looking online to order my first CUC now. Should I try ordering a second clown, or should I wait?

 

I'm also getting the itch for coral. I know I was going to start out fish only, but I can't help it!! Haha. I love the look of GSP, but I know a lot of people say not to add it. My rock work is made up of 3 large rocks, so I'd probably need to get something small for the GSP to grow on, so that it doesn't take over all the rock. I also have an Aqueon Tank lid with LED light. So nothing fancy, and I'm not looking to upgrade lighting any time soon, so I would need easy, beginner corals that do not require intense lighting.

 

Thank you all for all the help you've given so far!

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, Whitnano said:

Update: We added a cleaner shrimp (Shrimpy Doodle Dandy), (because they were out of clowns), a couple of weeks ago. He's done really well and is so fun to watch. A week ago today, we brought home a clown. He has stayed to the back right corner of the tank, and found a little "cave" in that area, that he hides in. A couple of days after we brought him home, we got up that morning, and I kind of freaked, because we couldn't see him. I checked the filter, the floor, until I realized he was way back under his little rock just enough, where we couldn't see him. For several days, I couldn't even tell if he was eating or not. I started off feeding flake food, which the shrimp loves. I then ordered some sinking pellet food because it didn't seem like Nemo was getting any. I noticed yesterday, it did look like he was eating the pellets. Although, I had to drop them right above where he was, he doesn't swim around the rest of the tank at all. Will that change? I've always heard what neat fish they were to watch, but he really doesn't hardly come out at all. Would it help if I added another one? He is smaller than the cleaner shrimp, so I'm wondering if that scared him, the shrimp being in the tank first....

 

My water parameters have not changed, since I did my last water change. So they are good. I did go home for lunch today, and noticed small brownish spots on the sand and a few on the rocks, which I am guessing is my first diatom bloom. I'm looking online to order my first CUC now. Should I try ordering a second clown, or should I wait?

 

I'm also getting the itch for coral. I know I was going to start out fish only, but I can't help it!! Haha. I love the look of GSP, but I know a lot of people say not to add it. My rock work is made up of 3 large rocks, so I'd probably need to get something small for the GSP to grow on, so that it doesn't take over all the rock. I also have an Aqueon Tank lid with LED light. So nothing fancy, and I'm not looking to upgrade lighting any time soon, so I would need easy, beginner corals that do not require intense lighting.

 

Thank you all for all the help you've given so far!

For a standard led, even low light corals won't grow much and won't have much colour.

 

If you want corals, even a budget reef light would be best.

 

You would want to stick with non photosynthetic corals which require a different level of work