Would adding more bacteria cause a cycle?

[LogicalReefs]

If I used Fritz 900 turbo start to help cycle my tank fishless, would adding biospira now or down cause another cycle? 

 

Would this cause any issues down the road?

[specore]

I wouldn't think so.  Why add more now?

[LogicalReefs]

14 minutes ago, specore said:

I wouldn't think so.  Why add more now?

Tank has been reading 20ppm nitrate for a while now even after a water change. Ammonia reads 0 and so does nitrite. Added some ROX carbon to see if that would help and nothing really.

[ReefGoat]

Another bottle of bacteria isn't going to reduce nitrates. They are constantly building in a normal aquarium depending on how heavy or not heavy your bioload is. The way to remove these isn't the same as nitrites and ammonia. So you'd be wasting money on Biospira. Stick to the water changes and they will come down. 

[Subsea]

1 hour ago, ReefGoat said:

Another bottle of bacteria isn't going to reduce nitrates. They are constantly building in a normal aquarium depending on how heavy or not heavy your bioload is. The way to remove these isn't the same as nitrites and ammonia. So you'd be wasting money on Biospira. Stick to the water changes and they will come down. 

 

Yes, that is true but denitrifying bacteria will multiply much faster than nitrifying bacteria.  

 

@LogicalReefs

 

Nitrifying bacterias are autotrophic which grows slowly and mainly responsible for the conversion of ammonium (NH4+) to the nitrate(NO3-) by fixing the nitrogen in combined form. Autotrophic bacterias consume inorganic carbon i.e. CO2 for their growth. Denitrifying bacterias are heterotrophic which grows rapidly and are responsible for the conversion of nitrate(NO3-) to the nitrogen gas(N2). Heterotrophic bacterias consume the organic carbon for their growth.

 

Typically, denitrifying bacteria grow in the facultative zone with reduced oxygen enviroment.  In the reduced oxygen  environment of the facultative zone, these bacteria scavenge oxygen from NO3 to reduce it to free nitrogen gas.

[banasophia]

10 minutes ago, Subsea said:

 

Yes, that is true but denitrifying bacteria will multiply much faster than nitrifying bacteria.  

 

@LogicalReefs

 

Nitrifying bacterias are autotrophic which grows slowly and mainly responsible for the conversion of ammonium (NH4+) to the nitrate(NO3-) by fixing the nitrogen in combined form. Autotrophic bacterias consume inorganic carbon i.e. CO2 for their growth. Denitrifying bacterias are heterotrophic which grows rapidly and are responsible for the conversion of nitrate(NO3-) to the nitrogen gas(N2). Heterotrophic bacterias consume the organic carbon for their growth.

 

Typically, denitrifying bacteria grow in the facultative zone with reduced oxygen enviroment.  In the reduced oxygen  environment of the facultative zone, these bacteria scavenge oxygen from NO3 to reduce it to free nitrogen gas.

So in agreement with what @Subsea is saying, I think that in this scenario, the nitrifying bacteria are already established and what one would want to promote are the denitrifying bacteria which will convert the nitrates.

 

I don’t think that BioSpira is made to help with that bacterial population, but Microbacter7 is. See the pics, and definitely research further, but that’s why I got the Microbacter7. Haven’t used it enough yet to know how well it works in my system. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Subsea]

Once denitrification bacteria are established, nitrates will come down without water change.  

[banasophia]

12 minutes ago, Subsea said:

Once denitrification bacteria are established, nitrates will come down without water change.  

Do you think it’s necessary to feed them a carbon source like NOPOX, vodka, or something else? I’m doing NOPOX personally... 

[Subsea]

I will tell you what RandyHolmesFarley told me this year when I asked him about carbon dosing and amino acid dosing.  Food provides carbon.   Bacteria consuming animal & plant proteins produce amino acids.  IMO, it is not necessary to carbon dose, but then again I feed live mussels to the system every day.  Yes, I feed the system, not just the fish.

[LogicalReefs]

3 hours ago, banasophia said:

So in agreement with what @Subsea is saying, I think that in this scenario, the nitrifying bacteria are already established and what one would want to promote are the denitrifying bacteria which will convert the nitrates.

 

I don’t think that BioSpira is made to help with that bacterial population, but Microbacter7 is. See the pics, and definitely research further, but that’s why I got the Microbacter7. Haven’t used it enough yet to know how well it works in my system. 

 

 

 

 

 

I will try the brightwell aquatics bacteria. I knew there HAD to be a way to get those nitrates down. I also plan on getting macralgae for my display tank also so that should help with that. 

[banasophia]

1 hour ago, Subsea said:

I will tell you what RandyHolmesFarley told me this year when I asked him about carbon dosing and amino acid dosing.  Food provides carbon.   Bacteria consuming animal & plant proteins produce amino acids.  IMO, it is not necessary to carbon dose, but then again I feed live mussels to the system every day.  Yes, I feed the system, not just the fish.

I totally get that in theory, but people do seem to report an additional drop in nitrates when they do some kind of carbon dosing... maybe it just depends on what you’re feeding. Really, if I understand correctly carbon dosing is also feeding, it’s just feeding something more readily utilized by the denitrifying bacteria.

 

I feed a ton of pellets/frozen/powder/baby brine shrimp due to my mandarin and NPS corals... so I pretty much use every method I can think of to control nitrates and phosphates in my system. 

 

My favorite means is probably macro in the DT though, as it’s both helpful and so beautiful. 

 

[FISHnChix]

35 minutes ago, banasophia said:

I totally get that in theory, but people do seem to report an additional drop in nitrates when they do some kind of carbon dosing... maybe it just depends on what you’re feeding. Really, if I understand correctly carbon dosing is also feeding, it’s just feeding something more readily utilized by the denitrifying bacteria.

 

I feed a ton of pellets/frozen/powder/baby brine shrimp due to my mandarin and NPS corals... so I pretty much use every method I can think of to control nitrates and phosphates in my system. 

 

My favorite means is probably macro in the DT though, as it’s both helpful and so beautiful. 

 

What is that red macro on the bottom right?

[banasophia]

I think it is Halymenia, and though you can’t see it well in the picture there’s also Botryocladia. (Don’t know for sure, bought them as “red macro” from the LFS, maybe someone can confirm here.)

 

https://www.marineplantbook.com

[LogicalReefs]

48 minutes ago, banasophia said:

I totally get that in theory, but people do seem to report an additional drop in nitrates when they do some kind of carbon dosing... maybe it just depends on what you’re feeding. Really, if I understand correctly carbon dosing is also feeding, it’s just feeding something more readily utilized by the denitrifying bacteria.

 

I feed a ton of pellets/frozen/powder/baby brine shrimp due to my mandarin and NPS corals... so I pretty much use every method I can think of to control nitrates and phosphates in my system. 

 

My favorite means is probably macro in the DT though, as it’s both helpful and so beautiful. 

 

That is pretty much how I want my tank to look lol. Very natural and everything works together to form a life cycle. 

[banasophia]

1 minute ago, LogicalReefs said:

That is pretty much how I want my tank to look lol. Very natural and everything works together to form a life cycle. 

Thanks. 😊

[Subsea]

2 hours ago, banasophia said:

I totally get that in theory, but people do seem to report an additional drop in nitrates when they do some kind of carbon dosing... maybe it just depends on what you’re feeding. Really, if I understand correctly carbon dosing is also feeding, it’s just feeding something more readily utilized by the denitrifying bacteria.

 

I feed a ton of pellets/frozen/powder/baby brine shrimp due to my mandarin and NPS corals... so I pretty much use every method I can think of to control nitrates and phosphates in my system. 

 

My favorite means is probably macro in the DT though, as it’s both helpful and so beautiful. 

 

Carbon dosing grows bacteria.  Skimmate is 95% bacteria.  However, in addittion to carbon, bacteria will uptake N & P.  I have been skimmerless for 35 years.  There are many ways to perform nutrient management in a reef tank.  I prefer to frag & sell coral or ornamental macro (seaweed).  Macro combines  carbon/nitrogen/Phosphate in 560/30/1 ratio.  

 

Choose the nutrient management that works for you.

[mcarroll]

On 11/9/2018 at 3:09 PM, banasophia said:

Really, if I understand correctly carbon dosing is also feeding, it’s just feeding something more readily utilized by the denitrifying bacteria.

I think that's an accurate summary of the common knowledge on the subject of carbon dosing. 

 

But the reality of modifying the type and quantity of available carbon sources in a tank (whether organic or inorganic) is much more fuzzy and includes a fairly predictable range of potential negative side-effects.

 

Carbon dosing is something that I'd only use in a mature system that had no real problems.  Meaning that the only "problem" is nutrient tests returning results that are "too high".  All pretty relative, so IMO there are few conditions that really warrant carbon dosing.

 

I would practically never suggest carbon dosing a new tank....almost any other remedy (including doing nothing) would be preferable vs the risk of carbon dosing.

 

Also, I didn't see Brightwell make any specific claims about the bottle containing denitrifying bacteria - only that it's use can "enhance" denitrification.   Of course all it takes to "enhance" denitrification is a dose of nitrifying bacteria.  :)  I'm not claiming anything one way or the other (I dunno...it might have all the bacteria we need plus a bar of soap), but I don't think the label is claiming much either. 😉

 

@LogicalReefs I haven't seen (or maybe I missed) your test results for phosphates.  Can you let us know?   Personally I'd be more leery of dumping bottles in the tank.   NO3 of 20 doesn't hurt anything...and a stagnant or increasing number might indicate a simple N : P imbalance. 

 

N : P imbalances are not uncommon in tanks that have had lots of changes (eg new tank). 

 

And it's better (all things considered) to correct something like this by increasing what's missing vs trying to subtract what we perceive to be in excess. 

 

Our tools for nutrient removal, such as carbon dosing, GFO, et al, are:

• gross
• imprecise
• delayed in effect
• totally after the fact

(These kinds of tools are all fine in their own ways, but from reading around I'd say that over-deployment and over-use are common for most of them.)

 

In thankful contrast to our ability to remove nutrients, our tools for making nutrient additions are both precise and immediate.  

 

But testing is the first step...which is why we need phosphate test results.  :)

 

Determining if any of these numbers is really indicitive of a problem is a whole other matter.

 

I personally wouldn't take any action at all just based on an NO3 test of 20 ppm.  Not even if it was 20 ppm for a long time.  Need more data.  Need more context.

[mcarroll]

Wow....somehow that autosaved on me in the middle of editing....hands were motionless over the keyboard and thumb over the trackpad while I was thinking.....then all-of-a-sudden it was posted and not being edited anymore!  What tha....???

[mcarroll]

I guess the only thing I was really going to add was this:

 

Real nutrient control happens during stocking. 

 

Not during feeding, since you have to feed appropriate quantities to keep your animals healthy. 

 

And definitely not after the fact by trying to remove residual phosphates or nitrates.

[banasophia]

15 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I guess the only thing I was really going to add was this:

 

Real nutrient control happens during stocking. 

 

Not during feeding, since you have to feed appropriate quantities to keep your animals healthy. 

 

And definitely not after the fact by trying to remove residual phosphates or nitrates.

Certainly how you stock affects how much you need to feed, but if you like to keep corals or fish that require frequent or heavy feeding (for example, I have a mandarin dragonet, sun corals, and an NPS gorgonian that all require heavy feeding) then you need to rely more heavily on nutrient breakdown and/or export. I use NOPOX and Phosphate RX, in addition to 30% weekly water changes, filter media, and a skimmer. 

[dcknipe]

I'm a big fan of Microbacter7.  I saw a post where Dave from nanobox actually used it every times he feeds.  Blen reef doeses it daily as well and they have some phenomenal tanks. 

 

I dose microbacter7 every day and I will continue for the life of my tank.  I love this stuff.