IM 20 Nuvo Fusion (livestock)

[Litt]

7 hours ago, Jaredgib said:

Following  along, I'm about to upgrade my Fusion 20 to a 30L and am using most of the same equipment as Litt. I'll post my build thread soon. 

 

 

 

I really like the 30L....if I would have had room I would have gone that route I think.  Good luck....I will keep an eye out for the build thread.

[Litt]

Ok, time to get things cycling.  First thing is to take current measurements.  The tank has been running now for about 24 hours.  I have the initial lighting schedule set for a 10 hour period with the moonlight running the other 14 hours (only at 2%).  I don't understand a lot about the different wavelengths so I hope this yellow channel doesn't do much to influence growth.  Total water added is just shy of 18G.  Initial parameters using the Red Sea kit look like this:

 

SG:  1.0245

Temp:  77.7

NH3/NH4:  0.06

NO3: 2

NO2: 0.05

pH: 8.1

KH:  12dKH, 4.29 Meq/L

 

 

 

Not sure what to make of those yet.  I was a bit surprised to see ammonia already...maybe I shouldn't be.  The chemistry is new to me so I need to spend more time understanding all the numbers and what they mean.  Since this is the initial log, I am just marking them for reference and will start tracking them probably every day to start with over the next week or two and then once cycle is complete probably weekly.

 

I decided to use the Red Sea cycle kit also.  I started that today by dosing some bacteria along with some phosphate and nitrate reducer and food for the bacteria.  This is a 21 day cycle kit to help regulate the process.  I am sure this is not needed and nature will go its route but since we are in the hobby of controlling the eco system then I thought it was a good fit to help me understand better how all these things influence each other.

 

[cobra2326]

Looks like you’ve planned well for this. Nice equipment selection and good work prepping the rocks. Only suggestion I would give is to put the heater on a controller. I don’t trust them.

[Litt]

9 hours ago, cobra2326 said:

Looks like you’ve planned well for this. Nice equipment selection and good work prepping the rocks. Only suggestion I would give is to put the heater on a controller. I don’t trust them.

Thanks.  Agreed on the controller.  I have looked at them at a high level but haven't been serious about one yet.  My rough plan is to get the tank established manually and then look at automating a lot of stuff.  My one fear on entering this hobby was that I would get tired of the maintenance required and over time abandon it.  I hope to keep it interesting by automating this as much as possible as things progress.

 

On the subject of controllers...do you have one you suggest?  I see a lot of people using Apex.  I was surprised that the MP10 didn't let me program it for a scheduled so seems like I need a controller for this also.  Ideally the controller would do a lot of the chemical testing/monitoring as well as control some of the schedules for the equipment.  This is one thing I liked about the nanobox light, the schedule programming was built-in with the light purchase so it was a set it and enjoy it type.  Most of this seems like overkill for a 20g tank but I am pretty sure if I continue to enjoy the hobby a second bigger tank will be in my future.

[cobra2326]

2 hours ago, Litt said:

Thanks.  Agreed on the controller.  I have looked at them at a high level but haven't been serious about one yet.  My rough plan is to get the tank established manually and then look at automating a lot of stuff.  My one fear on entering this hobby was that I would get tired of the maintenance required and over time abandon it.  I hope to keep it interesting by automating this as much as possible as things progress.

 

On the subject of controllers...do you have one you suggest?  I see a lot of people using Apex.  I was surprised that the MP10 didn't let me program it for a scheduled so seems like I need a controller for this also.  Ideally the controller would do a lot of the chemical testing/monitoring as well as control some of the schedules for the equipment.  This is one thing I liked about the nanobox light, the schedule programming was built-in with the light purchase so it was a set it and enjoy it type.  Most of this seems like overkill for a 20g tank but I am pretty sure if I continue to enjoy the hobby a second bigger tank will be in my future.

I can't really suggest anything as I just built my own stuff (programmer by trade). I do know that the Apex supports controlling the MP10 (for now anyway, Apex has their own competing pumps now, so time will tell). I would still have a plan for what happens if the power goes out or the Apex fails. A good way to test this is just unplug the Apex and think how long your tank could run without it.

[Litt]

8 minutes ago, cobra2326 said:

I can't really suggest anything as I just built my own stuff (programmer by trade). I do know that the Apex supports controlling the MP10 (for now anyway, Apex has their own competing pumps now, so time will tell). I would still have a plan for what happens if the power goes out or the Apex fails. A good way to test this is just unplug the Apex and think how long your tank could run without it.

Software guy here also.  I have been playing with the idea of hooking an Arduino up to it but haven't looked into what types of senors there are out there to interface that would be useful.  I also thought about doing it via LabView since the tank sits next to my computer and I could hook stuff into a DAC on the PC side.  What hardware are you using in your own solution?

[cobra2326]

2 minutes ago, Litt said:

Software guy here also.  I have been playing with the idea of hooking an Arduino up to it but haven't looked into what types of senors there are out there to interface that would be useful.  I also thought about doing it via LabView since the tank sits next to my computer and I could hook stuff into a DAC on the PC side.  What hardware are you using in your own solution?

Mine runs on a Raspberry Pi 3b for the main code, Wifi, web server, etc, and then communicates with an Arduino over i2c for some of the lower level stuff (PWM for the lights, etc). Since you already have a nanobox, you can probably do everything on the Pi, which is nice for maintainability's sake, and you can pick a programming language you're comfortable in.

[controlledentropy]

46 minutes ago, Litt said:

Software guy here also.  I have been playing with the idea of hooking an Arduino up to it but haven't looked into what types of senors there are out there to interface that would be useful.  I also thought about doing it via LabView since the tank sits next to my computer and I could hook stuff into a DAC on the PC side.  What hardware are you using in your own solution?

My freshwater planted tank has 4 sensors - waterproof temperature probe, pH probe, conductivity/TDS/salinity probe and an LDR. They are all hooked up to my Arduino Uno, which is hooked up to my RaspberryPi 2b. The Raspi reads the data through serial and logs them into Thingspeak.

 

Here is my live data on Thingspeak.

 

The probes that I used are;

Atlas Scientific pH

Atlas Scientific Conductivity

Temp probe

And an LDR

 

Honestly, I thought of doing this again for the nano reef that I just started, but I don't think I would. The cost of the entire setup (lab grade probes are super expensive) is probably close to the cost of an Apex Classic. Another one of my problems is that I lack the proper place to host the data. I thought of using sql + Heroku stuff, but I just never got to it.

[cobra2326]

Since we're geeking out already, here's a screenshot of mine. I have a whole chart page with historical data and stuff too.

 

 

 

For pH, I went a little crazy and designed my own board, but it's just based off this one: https://www.sparkyswidgets.com/product/miniph/. You can read it via I2C on Arduino or RaspPi. That + the Pinpoint probe is only like $50. 

 

For temp I used the ubiquitous DS18B20, I think there's a kernel module for it that makes it super easy to read on the Pi.

 

For depth/ATO, I copied the design used by ReefAngel (pressure sensor). I also bought an optical sensor I'm going to add for redundancy. Salinity spikes are no fun

 

Total cost should be under $100 for everything, and you have complete control.

 

[cobra2326]

1 hour ago, controlledentropy said:

My freshwater planted tank has 4 sensors - waterproof temperature probe, pH probe, conductivity/TDS/salinity probe and an LDR. They are all hooked up to my Arduino Uno, which is hooked up to my RaspberryPi 2b. The Raspi reads the data through serial and logs them into Thingspeak.

 

Here is my live data on Thingspeak.

 

The probes that I used are;

Atlas Scientific pH

Atlas Scientific Conductivity

Temp probe

And an LDR

 

Honestly, I thought of doing this again for the nano reef that I just started, but I don't think I would. The cost of the entire setup (lab grade probes are super expensive) is probably close to the cost of an Apex Classic. Another one of my problems is that I lack the proper place to host the data. I thought of using sql + Heroku stuff, but I just never got to it.

What's an LDR? 

 

Pretty cool setup here. My data is hosted on the Pi, and I used a reverse proxy to publish it so I can look anywhere (cheap server running on AWS). I've looked into time-series databases and the like, but it's just overkill for a single (or few) reefs. I'm just using a CSV file that gets backed up to S3 every once in a while. It's interesting though, I wonder if it makes sense for us to combine forces and come up with an OSS platform? ReefAngel kinda has this already.

[controlledentropy]

4 minutes ago, cobra2326 said:

What's an LDR? 

 

Pretty cool setup here. My data is hosted on the Pi, and I used a reverse proxy to publish it so I can look anywhere (cheap server running on AWS). I've looked into time-series databases and the like, but it's just overkill for a single (or few) reefs. I'm just using a CSV file that gets backed up to S3 every once in a while. It's interesting though, I wonder if it makes sense for us to combine forces and come up with an OSS platform? ReefAngel kinda has this already.

LDR = Light Dependent Resistor.

 

Let's combine forces and take on APEX. (Joking)

 

One thing I am so scared of is controlling things. I have all these monitors, but no ability to control anything because I am scared of using relays. I am considering buying a hackable power socket (something like a WeMo) to control the heater and light in my freshwater planted tank.

 

I think the holy grail of tank automation, is testing automation and I have an idea of doing that. I just need to execute it. I hate testing because my eyes are funny. They are all shades of the same color for me, for e.g. the freshwater nitrate test - it's basically shades of red.

 

Testing automation can be done by using high precision dosing pumps to do 2 things; acquire the sample water and titrate the reagent, while shining some LEDs with the light sensor behind it. Basically, the water will change color as the reagent is titrated. Water of different color will absorb different wavelengths. Just need to do some calibration before. This is how Hanna Checker does it.

 

 

[cobra2326]

1 hour ago, controlledentropy said:

LDR = Light Dependent Resistor.

 

Let's combine forces and take on APEX. (Joking)

 

One thing I am so scared of is controlling things. I have all these monitors, but no ability to control anything because I am scared of using relays. I am considering buying a hackable power socket (something like a WeMo) to control the heater and light in my freshwater planted tank.

 

I think the holy grail of tank automation, is testing automation and I have an idea of doing that. I just need to execute it. I hate testing because my eyes are funny. They are all shades of the same color for me, for e.g. the freshwater nitrate test - it's basically shades of red.

 

Testing automation can be done by using high precision dosing pumps to do 2 things; acquire the sample water and titrate the reagent, while shining some LEDs with the light sensor behind it. Basically, the water will change color as the reagent is titrated. Water of different color will absorb different wavelengths. Just need to do some calibration before. This is how Hanna Checker does it.

 

 

I’ve thought about this, but the issue is dealing with the reagents. Do you know how the Hanna works? Titration tests would be harder than colorimetric ones. I think that automated alkalinity tester uses dosing pumps like this, but I’m not sure.

 

A good start would be doing something like the Hach does where you can calibrate it to a wavelength endpoint. (linear?)

 

Sorry for the thread hijack.

[controlledentropy]

1 minute ago, cobra2326 said:

I’ve thought about this, but the issue is dealing with the reagents. Do you know how the Hanna works? Titration tests would be harder than colorimetric ones. I think that automated alkalinity tester uses dosing pumps like this, but I’m not sure.

For Hanna, you just take the reagent at a fixed amount and add it to the sample also at a fixed amount. Inside the tester, I think there must be some light which shines through the bottle and some sort of reader/sensor on the other side.

 

I think for the reagent, as long as it does not oxidize, it can be handled by a dosing pump. The new Apex automated tested works this way.

[Litt]

All interesting thoughts.  I appreciate the discussion.  I have thought a lot about a number of things you guys have mentioned.  I write software for control systems (aerospace flight controls) so this is all familiar.  Why are you scared of using relays?  They are the key to all of this in connecting the monitoring side to the control side.  There are highly reliable relays out there (at a cost of course).  I was more concerned with figuring out the monitoring piece and how to make the various sensors that are readily available into something useful.  The pH probe is interesting as is the temp sensor but not worth a whole lot unless the monitoring can take executive action and adjust to form a closed loop system.

 

The depth one is interesting....what kind of resolution are you seeing out of the pressure sensor?  With small tanks I have to imagine the scale is very small in depth differences.  How much change can it detect?

 

 

[controlledentropy]

8 minutes ago, Litt said:

All interesting thoughts.  I appreciate the discussion.  I have thought a lot about a number of things you guys have mentioned.  I write software for control systems (aerospace flight controls) so this is all familiar.  Why are you scared of using relays?  They are the key to all of this in connecting the monitoring side to the control side.  There are highly reliable relays out there (at a cost of course).  I was more concerned with figuring out the monitoring piece and how to make the various sensors that are readily available into something useful.  The pH probe is interesting as is the temp sensor but not worth a whole lot unless the monitoring can take executive action and adjust to form a closed loop system.

 

The depth one is interesting....what kind of resolution are you seeing out of the pressure sensor?  With small tanks I have to imagine the scale is very small in depth differences.  How much change can it detect?

 

 

I just have no experience wiring high current stuff, that's why I opted to not try using the relays.

[Litt]

1 minute ago, controlledentropy said:

I just have no experience wiring high current stuff, that's why I opted to not try using the relays.

Understood.  The level of complexity (at all levels...cost, technical, hardware, risk, etc.) grows a lot when you try to connect the two sides.

[controlledentropy]

Just now, Litt said:

Understood.  The level of complexity (at all levels...cost, technical, hardware, risk, etc.) grows a lot when you try to connect the two sides.

Plus, its easier to rig a WeMo.

[Litt]

Do you guys think a skimmer is necessary for a tank this size?  I have been going back and forth on the ghost skimmer made for this tank.  Wondering if I should just take the plunge and get one.

[controlledentropy]

32 minutes ago, Litt said:

Do you guys think a skimmer is necessary for a tank this size?  I have been going back and forth on the ghost skimmer made for this tank.  Wondering if I should just take the plunge and get one.

Depends on how much water change, feeding, and fish you will have.

[Litt]

41 minutes ago, controlledentropy said:

Depends on how much water change, feeding, and fish you will have.

Yea, point taken.  I think I will play it out and see how it goes.  I can always add later if the bio load gets too much to handle.

[Litt]

Day 2 of dosing to kick start the cycle:

 

SG:  1.025

Temp:  77.6

NH3/NH4:  1.1

NO3: 19

NO2: 0.12

pH: 8.1

KH:  11dKH, 3.93 Meq/L

 

From the numbers I can see that I have had some evaporation....about half a step in SG in 24 hours.  That gives me a good idea of how much my salinity will change in a day.  I am not sure how much water volume this equates to yet...going to figure that out.  My nitrate has spiked hugely and ammonia has doubled in the last 24 hours.  I believe this means the cycle is progressing rapidly, the conversion from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate is occurring.  I expect in about 2 days I will have algae with the rapid nitrate bloom.  With the ammonia spiking also, I think I need a larger bacteria population.  For dosing today, I only dosed bacteria along with the nitrate reducer.  The next step is to try and equalize all of these (enough ammonia-eating bacteria to consume the ammonia on the front end and enough nitrate-eating bacteria to consume the nitrates on the back end).

 

I woke up this morning with the water pretty cloudy white.  I presume this is a bacteria bloom.  There was a milky substance all over the glass also.  I also assume this is from the bacteria bloom.  By about mid-day it was gone and water was very clear again.

 

I realized also that I over-filled the tank.  My back chamber (return pump section) was equal in water level to the display area and the water passing through my filter socks was not dropping into the water socks but just filling the whole chamber.  I removed about half a gallon of water from the tank (back chambers).  This brings to total water volume to a corrected ~17.5 gallons.

 

In this first pic you can now see that water flows through the filter slots and drops nicely into the filter sock:

 

 

And now in the second picture, this is the flow from my second chamber into my return pump chamber.  You can see now there is a smooth fill up on the second chamber and a nice flow into the return chamber.  Water in the return chamber is now creating a small whirlpool...which I think is desired because it is making sure the surface water is being sucked down and back into the display tank such that all the water is cycling around and not having some stagnant on top:

 

[NanoReefMinimalist]

If you place this many rocks, your space for coral growth is limited.

[Litt]

24 minutes ago, NanoReefMinimalist said:

If you place this many rocks, your space for coral growth is limited.

 

It is a good point.  I was surprised how much real estate the rocks ended up taking.  In the end though, I am more interested in quality over quantity at least for a nano tank.  As I said earlier, I suspect there will be a larger tank in my future so this is really going to be my learning tank on maintaining a balanced eco-system so with that I am fine with limiting it to the space available.  I think BRS recommends for pukani 2/3 pound per gallon of water in the display tank.  I am a bit over this....I probably am running about 15 pounds with 17.5 gallons of water.  I may look at changing out one of the bigger rocks for the smaller one I left out.  That would probably put me more in line with what they recommend.

[cobra2326]

2 hours ago, Litt said:

 

It is a good point.  I was surprised how much real estate the rocks ended up taking.  In the end though, I am more interested in quality over quantity at least for a nano tank.  As I said earlier, I suspect there will be a larger tank in my future so this is really going to be my learning tank on maintaining a balanced eco-system so with that I am fine with limiting it to the space available.  I think BRS recommends for pukani 2/3 pound per gallon of water in the display tank.  I am a bit over this....I probably am running about 15 pounds with 17.5 gallons of water.  I may look at changing out one of the bigger rocks for the smaller one I left out.  That would probably put me more in line with what they recommend.

Just a suggestion: you may want to try Matrix or Siporax. It serves the same purpose as live rock but can be run in a media bag in a sump or chamber.

[Litt]

I took some of the advice given above and re-worked some of the rocks.  I split the biggest one into 5 pieces (one swing from a hammer with a big flat head screwdriver did that) and then tossed 3 of the 5 pieces.  I am happy with the change and think this looks more balanced for the aquascape and gives enough room for corals.  The flow around the rocks isn't quite as good as it was before but it still seems like every part of the tank is getting flow.  One of these days I will break out the DSLR and get real pictures.  Thanks for the advice.